Amp into Fx loop feedback noise

[heikobear]

Hi, I am trying to run my 6505 head into the Stomp FX loop by using the send and return. The head of course is running on line level with a load as it is fully cranked. So I am not using the fx loop of my amp!  I am connecting the amp like a distortion pedal.

I am devastated because it creates a feedback loop. Is it a fact that heads cannot be run with the Helix or is there a solution? I really want to use some effects before the overdrive section but I never tried this with a multi effects unit.

I also tried to run directly into the return instead of the main input and then assigning the block to return, this creates no feedback but then the blocks before the loop block do not work!

Thanks, Heiko

 

 

[rd2rk]

Now would be a good time to read the manual, specifically page 9, which describes and illustrates 4cm (4 cable method).

[HonestOpinion]

 

 

 

 

 

[heikobear]

Ok, I am not using the fX loop of the amp because I am using a load and a stereo power amp for output. I connect the amp like a distortion pedal: I plug the guitar in the HRelix Stomp and use the send  to the amp in and the out of the load goes to return of the Stomp. The stomp stereo output goes to the stereo amp.

As soon as I use this principle I get a horrible feedback.

 

[heikobear]

5 hours ago, rd2rk said:

Now would be a good time to read the manual, specifically page 9, which describes and illustrates 4cm (4 cable method).

 

I did, and more. I am not using the fx loop of my 6505 as I explained because it is cranked and thus one uses a load. This is how professional tones are ceated, by the way.

I connect the amp like a distortion pedal in the signal chain and the result is horrible. As soon I plug the guitar in the Stomp in any combination I try creates the feedback. I also tried the guitar into amp, load out into the return mono of the Stomp and then assigning it to the fx block. That works, but no blocks before work.

[heikobear]

6 hours ago, HonestOpinion said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Besides this is not applicable to my case, how do you connect then a stereo power amp to the Helix? One output is already used for the wonderful 4 cable method....

[rd2rk]

The attached preset demos how to do it. You'll need an "INSERT" cable - 1/4" TRS to 1/4" dual Mono. Tip is the LEFT FX Loop, Ring is RIGHT.

 

Guitar>HXS L/Mono INPUT>HXS LEFT FX SEND>6505 Guitar Input

6505 FX SEND>HXS LEFT FX RETURN

HXS RIGHT FX SEND>6505 FX RETURN

LOAD BOX LINE OUT>HXS RIGHT FX RETURN

HXS Main Outputs>Stereo Power Amp

 

The HXS FS 2 (Blue) allows you to switch between a HXS amp/Preamp and the 6505 preamp. ON (Lit) is the 6505.

 

EDIT: Set the LEFT FX LOOP to INSTRUMENT, set the RIGHT to LINE.

heikobear.hlx

[heikobear]

33 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

The attached preset demos how to do it. You'll need an "INSERT" cable - 1/4" TRS to 1/4" dual Mono. Tip is the LEFT FX Loop, Ring is RIGHT.

 

Guitar>HXS L/Mono INPUT>HXS LEFT FX SEND>6505 Guitar Input

6505 FX SEND>HXS LEFT FX RETURN

HXS RIGHT FX SEND>6505 FX RETURN

LOAD BOX LINE OUT>HXS RIGHT FX RETURN

HXS Main Outputs>Stereo Power Amp

 

The HXS FS 2 (Blue) allows you to switch between a HXS amp/Preamp and the 6505 preamp. ON (Lit) is the 6505.

 

EDIT: Set the LEFT FX LOOP to INSTRUMENT, set the RIGHT to LINE.

heikobear.hlx 6.22 kB · 4 downloads

 

Thank for that! I dont understand it completely though. First, the Stomp has only one Stereo Send. Second, if the loop of the 6506 is involved, how do I get the full distortion, not only preamp gain? How the y cable is used?

[rd2rk]

Here's how you do it if you want your post amp FX in stereo.

Everything is the same as far as the wiring, you've just moved the 6505 power amp and load box ahead of the FX, which can now be stereo.

The main difference is that in the first example, the FX are placed as a guitarist in a LIVE situation without the stereo complications might do it.

That is, with the time-based FX in the amp's FX Loop. This in necessarily MONO, unless the amp has a stereo FX Loop and power amps like the JC120.

The second example is how it might be done in a studio, with the engineer adding the FX post guitar amp.

heikoStereo.hlx

[rd2rk]

Referring to the first example -

A) With the FX LOOP L turned ON, the signal goes HXS Input>Distortion>6505 Pre-amp>Time based FX MONO>6505 Power-amp>Load Box>HXS Outputs>Stereo amp.

B) With the FX LOOP L turned OFF, the signal goes HXS Input>Distortion>HXS amp/preamp>Time based FX MONO>6505 Power-amp>Load Box>HXS Outputs>Stereo amp.

 

Referring to the second (stereo) example - 

A) With the FX LOOP L turned ON, the signal goes HXS Input>Distortion>6505 Pre-amp>6505 Power-amp>Load Box>Time based FX STEREO>HXS Outputs>Stereo amp.

B) With the FX LOOP L turned OFF, the signal goes HXS Input>Distortion>HXS amp/preamp>6505 Power-amp>Load Box>Time based FX STEREO>HXS Outputs>Stereo amp.

 

If you MUST have (A) in STEREO, you'll need to trade your HXS for the full-fat Helix Floor or Rack, both of which have 4 FX Loops.

One loop MONO for the pre-amp options, two loops are needed for stereo for the time-based FX.

With the HXS, HXFX or HXLT, you only get 2 FX Loops, so you have to choose A or B.

 

[bobcoss]

Heiko,

 

I don't think we really understand exactly what you are trying to do.   We don't usually see people using Tube Amps as stomp boxes.  Especially when we have a Helix device.  I think I understand what you are trying to do now.

 

You want to put effects like distortion in front of your 6505 utilizing the preamp/power amp sounds and then have things like reverb and delay after the power amp so you can enjoy lush stereo out of your power amp.

 

After reading and re-reading several times, I think this is what I am hearing you are trying:

 

Guitar -> stomp -> effect block(s) -> HXS Send -> 6505 guitar in  -> 6505 Power Amp Out -> Load Box Line Out->  HXS Return -> effect block(s) - HXS Outputs (L & R) -> Stereo Power Amp In (L &R) -> Stereo Cabs.  

 

If that is correct, you could have some issues.  Note, I don't have a stomp, but do have Helix and HX Effects. 

 

1. The HXS Send might be set to "Line" level instead of instrument which can cause the preamp to not work the way/sound it would if the output was set to "instrument" level.

2. The HXS Return might be set to instrument, and you are flooding it with Line Level from the load box. 

3. You don't say what the load box is, but make sure you are only sending line level to the HXS Return not attenuated output levels designed to go to speakers at reduced volumes.

 

Make sure your stomp is working properly by using a simple patch that  is setup like  guitar -> HXS Input -> effect block(s) -> Amp+Cab block -> effect block(s) -> HXS Outputs (L & R) -> Stereo Power Amp In (L &R) -> Stereo Cabs.

 

Most of us with Helix devices would not bother to do what you are trying  because the amp models in the HX sound fantastic, and we can load an Impulse Response to get the sound of the cabinet we want.  4 cable method allows folks to use their HX device with their beloved amp's preamp and power amp and place the HX time based effects before the power amp.  I don't bother with 4 cable method because I like the preamp and full amp models in the Helix.  I do like to take the output from the Helix to an amp's effects return to use an amps power section.

[heikobear]

1 hour ago, bobcoss said:

Heiko,

 

I don't think we really understand exactly what you are trying to do.   We don't usually see people using Tube Amps as stomp boxes.  Especially when we have a Helix device.  I think I understand what you are trying to do now.

 

You want to put effects like distortion in front of your 6505 utilizing the preamp/power amp sounds and then have things like reverb and delay after the power amp so you can enjoy lush stereo out of your power amp.

 

After reading and re-reading several times, I think this is what I am hearing you are trying:

 

Guitar -> stomp -> effect block(s) -> HXS Send -> 6505 guitar in  -> 6505 Power Amp Out -> Load Box Line Out->  HXS Return -> effect block(s) - HXS Outputs (L & R) -> Stereo Power Amp In (L &R) -> Stereo Cabs.  

 

If that is correct, you could have some issues.  Note, I don't have a stomp, but do have Helix and HX Effects. 

 

1. The HXS Send might be set to "Line" level instead of instrument which can cause the preamp to not work the way/sound it would if the output was set to "instrument" level.

2. The HXS Return might be set to instrument, and you are flooding it with Line Level from the load box. 

3. You don't say what the load box is, but make sure you are only sending line level to the HXS Return not attenuated output levels designed to go to speakers at reduced volumes.

 

Make sure your stomp is working properly by using a simple patch that  is setup like  guitar -> HXS Input -> effect block(s) -> Amp+Cab block -> effect block(s) -> HXS Outputs (L & R) -> Stereo Power Amp In (L &R) -> Stereo Cabs.

 

Most of us with Helix devices would not bother to do what you are trying  because the amp models in the HX sound fantastic, and we can load an Impulse Response to get the sound of the cabinet we want.  4 cable method allows folks to use their HX device with their beloved amp's preamp and power amp and place the HX time based effects before the power amp.  I don't bother with 4 cable method because I like the preamp and full amp models in the Helix.  I do like to take the output from the Helix to an amp's effects return to use an amps power section.

 

Bobcoss,

 

you are right, I actually mostly  don´t use the amp modeling because my sound reference is EVH. These kind of sound you only get with real power tube distortion and to be honest, you need also speaker distortion, but this is another issue. So I treat the 6505 and the load box as one stomp box. The load box out is of course the line out.I can hear nicely the difference of cranking the master and cranking the pre gain, also in the 6505. To have an idea, pre gain is on 1 and post gain on 10.

 

The HXS send I tried both with line and instrument level. Also the HXS Return I tried with both. The feedback is  always there.

Interesting is the method to run guitar in the amp, loadbox into return of the HXS and assign the loop to return. This works without noise but for some reason all blocks before the loop do not work....

 

However, there are posts about normal stomp boxes which create feedback loops in the Helix. I never tried to run my slaved amps in processor loops before, but it should really be possible.

 

[rd2rk]

29 minutes ago, heikobear said:

The HXS send I tried both with line and instrument level. Also the HXS Return I tried with both. The feedback is  always there.

Interesting is the method to run guitar in the amp, loadbox into return of the HXS and assign the loop to return. This works without noise but for some reason all blocks before the loop do not work....

 

If you're using the example preset, and you're wired as I described, there's no way that the FX located before the FX loop aren't working.

You've missed something. Wiring, again - 

 

Guitar>HXS L/Mono Input>FX Loop L Send>6505 Input>6505 FX Send>HXS LEFT Return

 

Regardless of whether you have the FX Loop ON or OFF, the signal CAN'T reach ANY output without passing through the pre-loop FX.

[heikobear]

20 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

If you're using the example preset, and you're wired as I described, there's no way that the FX located before the FX loop aren't working.

You've missed something. Wiring, again - 

 

Guitar>HXS L/Mono Input>FX Loop L Send>6505 Input>6505 FX Send>HXS LEFT Return

 

Regardless of whether you have the FX Loop ON or OFF, the signal CAN'T reach ANY output without passing through the pre-loop FX.

 

Guitar>HXS L/Mono Input>FX Loop L Send>6505 Input>6505 FX Send>HXS LEFT Return

 - This would provide only the pre amp gain from the 6505. I need the line signal from the load box. And this creates  the feedback.

[rd2rk]

10 minutes ago, heikobear said:

 

Guitar>HXS L/Mono Input>FX Loop L Send>6505 Input>6505 FX Send>HXS LEFT Return

 - This would provide only the pre amp gain from the 6505. I need the line signal from the load box. And this creates  the feedback.

 

In that post we were talking about your statement that the pre loop FX weren't working. I gave only the part of the wiring that was relevant to that. The full wiring is as stated in the previous posts. If you're wired correctly and using my preset, there are NO feedback loops.

 

Are you somehow incorporating the Preamp Out jack on the 6505? I've only been able to locate the manual for the 6505+, so if you're not using that, then what?

[heikobear]

19 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

In that post we were talking about your statement that the pre loop FX weren't working. I gave only the part of the wiring that was relevant to that. The full wiring is as stated in the previous posts. If you're wired correctly and using my preset, there are NO feedback loops.

 

Are you somehow incorporating the Preamp Out jack on the 6505? I've only been able to locate the manual for the 6505+, so if you're not using that, then what?

 

Hi, I just didn´t figure out the strategy behind your set up. Actually you send the preamp signal from the 6505 to the first Loop, then you place reverb and delay and then you place the signal from the loadbox to the second loop. Correct?

This means, that after the time based effects comes one more distortion, correct? That is exactly what I don´t want. Please note that 80% of the distortion comes from the power tube stage.

If I am wrong please correct me.

 

 

[rd2rk]

In the MONO example, the Load Box returns immediately in front of the HXS Output, no additional anything, then out the HXS Main Outs.

For all that it matters, you could bridge the power amp and take the Load Box to it direct, skipping the final return to the HXS and HXS Outputs, as the time based FX are already there, between the 6505 pre-amp and power amp. A traditional MONO configuration.

 

In the STEREO example, the Load Box returns immediately in front of the time based stereo effects, no additional distortion unless you choose to add it, then goes out the HXS stereo L/R main outputs to the stereo power amp. A studio style configuration.

[heikobear]

25 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

In the MONO example, the Load Box returns immediately in front of the HXS Output, no additional anything, then out the HXS Main Outs.

For all that it matters, you could bridge the power amp and take the Load Box to it direct, skipping the final return to the HXS and HXS Outputs, as the time based FX are already there, between the 6505 pre-amp and power amp. A traditional MONO configuration.

 

In the STEREO example, the Load Box returns immediately in front of the time based stereo effects, no additional distortion unless you choose to add it, then goes out the HXS stereo L/R main outputs to the stereo power amp. A studio style configuration.

 

Ok, you are not responding to my questions. I dont understand your concept, it doesn´t  make sense to me, nor I understand the wiring as I don´t have a right send. This and probably the Helix just dont´t have the quality to incorporate a cranked amp. I will try to return this thing and look for a decent multi effects processor.

[rd2rk]

1 minute ago, heikobear said:

 

Ok, you are not responding to my questions. I dont understand your concept, it doesn´t  make sense to me, nor I understand the wiring as I don´t have a right send. This and probably the Helix just dont´t have the quality to incorporate a cranked amp. I will try to return this thing and look for a decent multi effects processor.

 

Now you're just being silly.

 

The HXS uses a combined L/R SEND. The Stereo Send is TRS.

It can be used as as STEREO SEND to a STEREO effect, returning a STEREO signal to the Left and Right Returns, or it can be used as two discrete MONO FX Loops.

The TIP is the LEFT FX LOOP SEND. The RING is the RIGHT FX LOOP SEND.

 

I understand what you're trying to accomplish.

Believe it or not, you are NOT the first to want to do this.

I explained two entirely workable methods to accomplish your goal.

 

You can return it, but whatever you replace it with, the same routing principles will apply.

It's plumbing 101.

Good Luck!

[heikobear]

15 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

Now you're just being silly.

 

The HXS uses a combined L/R SEND. The Stereo Send is TRS.

It can be used as as STEREO SEND to a STEREO effect, returning a STEREO signal to the Left and Right Returns, or it can be used as two discrete MONO FX Loops.

The TIP is the LEFT FX LOOP SEND. The RING is the RIGHT FX LOOP SEND.

 

I understand what you're trying to accomplish.

Believe it or not, you are NOT the first to want to do this.

I explained two entirely workable methods to accomplish your goal.

 

You can return it, but whatever you replace it with, the same routing principles will apply.

It's plumbing 101.

Good Luck!

 

Ok, now you actually explained how the y cabel is wired. Now I can at least replicate your wiring. However, I still don´t understand the concept behind it. I have a return from the 6505 send loop and a return from the loadbox. In the patch time based effects are placed. Do you want to say that the first loop doesnt provide distortion?

[datacommando]

17 hours ago, rd2rk said:

You can return it, but whatever you replace it with, the same routing principles will apply.

Hi,

 

I would guess that in the words of the Captain: “What we've got here is failure to communicate.”.

 

I just had a quick look at the “plumbing” and it could be that brother “heikobear” hasn’t been quite clear enough in explaining that his 6505 and the load box should be regarded as one single thing - his dirt box distortion unit. That should be a single Send/Return which he can place other noise making stuff or compressor in front of, then the distorted load box signal can be returned to the HXS to have delays or ‘verbs added before being spit out to the power amp.

 

I’m not in the studio until later today, but I have just looked at your examples with  the online preset viewer, 

https://dbagchee.github.io/helix-preset-viewer/

 

I guess that what is not quite right in the patch is the 2nd Loop for the load box is possibly not required, and the OP is interpreting that as an extra layer of distortion. Maybe just kill the second S/R Loop block.
 

I hope this helps/makes sense.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by datacommando
Typo

[rd2rk]

6 hours ago, heikobear said:

Ok, now you actually explained how the y cabel is wired. Now I can at least replicate your wiring. However, I still don´t understand the concept behind it. I have a return from the 6505 send loop and a return from the loadbox. In the patch time based effects are placed. Do you want to say that the first loop doesnt provide distortion?

 

When the FX LOOP SEND L BLOCK is ON, the FX SEND on the 6505 returns the 6505 pre-amp signal, colored by the HXS FX placed before the FX LOOP L SEND BLOCK, to the HXS. Thus, the first loop provides TWO types of distortion - distortion from HXS distortion FX and distortion from the 6505 pre-amp. The HXS amp is turned OFF when the FX LOOP L BLOCK is turned ON.

 

When FX LOOP L SEND BLOCK is OFF, the 6505 pre-amp is no longer in the circuit. The two types of distortion are now provided by the HXS distortion FX and the the HXS amp, which is turned ON when the FX LOOP L BLOCK is turned OFF.

 

So, YES, there IS distortion, TWO TYPES, in the first FX Loop, regardless of whether the loop is activated or not.

 

6 hours ago, heikobear said:

In the patch time based effects are placed.

 

As this is an incomplete sentence, I'm not sure what you're asking, BUT.....

 

If you're OK with the time-based FX being MONO, then you set it up as in example A. The time-based FX are placed between the pre-amp (HXS or 6505) and the power amp, BEFORE the load box. You now have a choice between taking the Load Box Line Out (if the load box has speaker emulation on the Line Out) directly to one side of the stereo power amp (you could bridge it for higher output), or you could take the Load Box Line Out back to the HXS via the HXS RIGHT FX RETURN, from where it could be further processed thru an IR (most common method - more choice) before being sent from the HXS MAIN OUTPUTS. As the signal is MONO, only the L/Mono Out is necessary to use the power amp in Bridged Mode or one side only. Use both Outputs for dual MONO using both sides of the amp.

 

If you want the time-based FX in STEREO, then you must use example B, which places the STEREO time-based FX between the Load Box Line Out and the HXS STEREO MAIN OUTPUTS.

You would likely want to use the Stereo Dual Cab or split the path and use two IRs to maintain the stereo signal.

 

Either way, there is no ADDITIONAL distortion in the SECOND FX Loop unless:

1) You purposely add it

2) You totally hose the gain staging

 

Two additional points - 

In Global Settings>Ins/Outs, RETURN TYPE needs to be set to RETURN. SEND/RETURN L needs to be set to INST, and SEND/RETURN R can be set to whichever works best. Start with LINE.

 

Hope this clears it up for you.

 

 

[SimonGugala]

@heikobear

i get what your trying to do.  Use a real amp in a loop and use an ir to have a full amp sound before effects.  I did this with a rock crusher load box and my heads and had a similar issue. First make sure that the effects loop is set to line, but the send is -20 (around Inst level).  Tweak from there for levels.  Next, adding an amp head introduces another ground which causes this problem.  I was plugging my pedal board out into an interface hiz’s that were not able to ground lift.  So either using ground lifts on actually di boxes or getting a ebtech hum x to isolate the amp ground should solve your problem.  

[heikobear]

19 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

When the FX LOOP SEND L BLOCK is ON, the FX SEND on the 6505 returns the 6505 pre-amp signal, colored by the HXS FX placed before the FX LOOP L SEND BLOCK, to the HXS. Thus, the first loop provides TWO types of distortion - distortion from HXS distortion FX and distortion from the 6505 pre-amp. The HXS amp is turned OFF when the FX LOOP L BLOCK is turned ON.

 

When FX LOOP L SEND BLOCK is OFF, the 6505 pre-amp is no longer in the circuit. The two types of distortion are now provided by the HXS distortion FX and the the HXS amp, which is turned ON when the FX LOOP L BLOCK is turned OFF.

 

So, YES, there IS distortion, TWO TYPES, in the first FX Loop, regardless of whether the loop is activated or not.

 

 

As this is an incomplete sentence, I'm not sure what you're asking, BUT.....

 

If you're OK with the time-based FX being MONO, then you set it up as in example A. The time-based FX are placed between the pre-amp (HXS or 6505) and the power amp, BEFORE the load box. You now have a choice between taking the Load Box Line Out (if the load box has speaker emulation on the Line Out) directly to one side of the stereo power amp (you could bridge it for higher output), or you could take the Load Box Line Out back to the HXS via the HXS RIGHT FX RETURN, from where it could be further processed thru an IR (most common method - more choice) before being sent from the HXS MAIN OUTPUTS. As the signal is MONO, only the L/Mono Out is necessary to use the power amp in Bridged Mode or one side only. Use both Outputs for dual MONO using both sides of the amp.

 

If you want the time-based FX in STEREO, then you must use example B, which places the STEREO time-based FX between the Load Box Line Out and the HXS STEREO MAIN OUTPUTS.

You would likely want to use the Stereo Dual Cab or split the path and use two IRs to maintain the stereo signal.

 

Either way, there is no ADDITIONAL distortion in the SECOND FX Loop unless:

1) You purposely add it

2) You totally hose the gain staging

 

Two additional points - 

In Global Settings>Ins/Outs, RETURN TYPE needs to be set to RETURN. SEND/RETURN L needs to be set to INST, and SEND/RETURN R can be set to whichever works best. Start with LINE.

 

Hope this clears it up for you.

 

 

 

Ok, as I understand, FX is placed before the load box signal, which is HIGHGAIN. I would agree if the first loop works purely as  tool for avoiding the feedback but if there is any distorion after the time based effects, that must not happen.

[heikobear]

9 hours ago, SimonGugala said:

@heikobear

i get what your trying to do.  Use a real amp in a loop and use an ir to have a full amp sound before effects.  I did this with a rock crusher load box and my heads and had a similar issue. First make sure that the effects loop is set to line, but the send is -20 (around Inst level).  Tweak from there for levels.  Next, adding an amp head introduces another ground which causes this problem.  I was plugging my pedal board out into an interface hiz’s that were not able to ground lift.  So either using ground lifts on actually di boxes or getting a ebtech hum x to isolate the amp ground should solve your problem.  

 

Hi Simon, almost. I don't use IR, only the distortion of the amp, but besides that you are right. I tried already to tweak with the levels but may be I missed something.But what really could work is a tool to isolate the amp as you indicated.What do you mean exactly with the DI boxes? This is another tool to avoid the noise?

[datacommando]

21 hours ago, rd2rk said:

Hope this clears it up for you.

 

Well - it certainly clears it up for me.

 

I got in the studio and loaded up the 2 two presets that you created for the OP, and it's immediately obvious that what you have done is correct. Of course I don't have his 6505 and load box , but the switching to outboard functions just as expected, and it makes even more sense on my Helix floor because the scribble strips indicate the switching between the loops. Two footswitches are lit up, first one shows MULTIPLE (2) switching between the Helix Pre-Amp and the 1st FX loop, then the second is for the Simple Delay on the second path.

 

The thing that threw me was using that online viewer for the preset - it's very basic and doesn't really show whats happening. Won't be using that again!

 

I cannot see why he thinks that there might be any any distortion happening after the delay and reverb.

 

File under general weirdness/user error.

 

;-)

[rd2rk]

4 hours ago, heikobear said:

 

Ok, as I understand, FX is placed before the load box signal, which is HIGHGAIN. I would agree if the first loop works purely as  tool for avoiding the feedback but if there is any distorion after the time based effects, that must not happen.

 

The load box signal is LINE level. HIGH GAIN means something else entirely.

The purpose of the first loop is to get the FX that you want in front of the PREAMP, whether it's the 6505 OR the HXS, as determined by the status of the FX LOOP L Block, keeping in mind that the HXS amp is OFF when the FX LOOP L Block is ON and vice versa. Correct overall routing and wiring is what prevents the feedback.

As I stated previously, the only way you'll get added distortion after the time-based FX is if you porposely ADD a distortion effect, or if you totally hose the gain staging. Do a search for GAIN STAGING here and on the Internet if you're not sure what that means.

 

@SimonGugala is talking about GROUND NOISE, which can sound like distortion, but is not the same as signal distortion caused by bad gain staging.

[heikobear]

1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

The load box signal is LINE level. HIGH GAIN means something else entirely.

The purpose of the first loop is to get the FX that you want in front of the PREAMP, whether it's the 6505 OR the HXS, as determined by the status of the FX LOOP L Block, keeping in mind that the HXS amp is OFF when the FX LOOP L Block is ON and vice versa. Correct overall routing and wiring is what prevents the feedback.

As I stated previously, the only way you'll get added distortion after the time-based FX is if you porposely ADD a distortion effect, or if you totally hose the gain staging. Do a search for GAIN STAGING here and on the Internet if you're not sure what that means.

 

@SimonGugala is talking about GROUND NOISE, which can sound like distortion, but is not the same as signal distortion caused by bad gain staging.

 

I know the load box is line level, but something is causing the noise...What I meant is the first FX loop. When this is on, that means to me that the 6505 preamp is engaged. After this comes the delay block and this is the problem. Or am I wrong?

I cannot test yet the wiring because  I dont have the y cable....but I would like to understand it. In practice I dont want any preamp before the time based effects. At least not with gain. I tend to believe that my kind of problem is solved with a DI box, as Simon indicated. They use it also for running tube amps with processors.

[rd2rk]

41 minutes ago, heikobear said:

 

I know the load box is line level, but something is causing the noise...What I meant is the first FX loop. When this is on, that means to me that the 6505 preamp is engaged. After this comes the delay block and this is the problem. Or am I wrong?

I cannot test yet the wiring because  I dont have the y cable....but I would like to understand it. In practice I dont want any preamp before the time based effects. At least not with gain. I tend to believe that my kind of problem is solved with a DI box, as Simon indicated. They use it also for running tube amps with processors.

 

Wrong on all counts.

 

Unless you want your pure unmodified guitar signal going direct to the time-based FX - no HXS amp, no 6505, use it the way I described.

If you WANT your pure unmodified guitar signal going direct to the time-based FX - No HXS amp, no 6505, then set up a Snapshot with BOTH the HXS amp AND the FX Loop L Block DISABLED. You won't be happy with the result.

 

May I make a suggestion? Get the INSERT cable and TRY what I've presented, and stop trying to GUESS what MIGHT happen based on your previous configuration.

Something might be causing a noise in your CURRENT configuration. It will PROBABLY be gone when it's configured correctly for what you're trying to do.

 

The purpose of a DI is to send a BALANCED SIGNAL to a mixing board via XLR cable. It will NOT eliminate noise that occurs earlier in the signal chain. It will ONLY prevent noise that is picked up by the cable run between the HXS and the mixing board. The HXS already HAS balanced Outputs (MAIN OUTS). Using a BALANCED 1/4" cable will do the same thing as a DI, and won't have a noticeable affect unless you're more than 20ft away from the board. The only time you MIGHT want to use a DI with the HXS is if you're far from the board and want to use a cheaper XLR cable, in which case you can save yourself some money by getting a simple balanced 1/4" to XLR adaptor NO DI BOX NECESSARY.

 

If you suspect that the "noise" you're hearing is in this part of the signal chain, then check the following:

 

Are ALL of the devices in the signal chain (including the 6505) plugged in to a QUALITY EMI/RFI filtered power strip/surge suppressor?

Is the power strip plugged into a SINGLE circuit (helps prevent ground loops)?

Does that circuit also host appliances, fluorescents or rheostats?

Are your signal cables between the HXS and the mixing board routed through a rat's nest of mixed unshielded cables and POWER cables?

Have you got an Internet router less than 10 feet from ANYTHING in your system?

Have you got a whole bunch of USB stuff plugged into the computer that the HXS is connected to (causing a USB ground loop)?

 

AGAIN - wait till you get the INSERT cable before you continue to drive yourself crazy with all this other stuff!

[SimonGugala]

On 6/16/2021 at 3:58 PM, heikobear said:

Hi, I am trying to run my 6505 head into the Stomp FX loop by using the send and return. The head of course is running on line level with a load as it is fully cranked. So I am not using the fx loop of my amp!  I am connecting the amp like a distortion pedal.

I am devastated because it creates a feedback loop. Is it a fact that heads cannot be run with the Helix or is there a solution? I really want to use some effects before the overdrive section but I never tried this with a multi effects unit.

I also tried to run directly into the return instead of the main input and then assigning the block to return, this creates no feedback but then the blocks before the loop block do not work!

Thanks, Heiko

 

 

 

8 hours ago, heikobear said:

 

Hi Simon, almost. I don't use IR, only the distortion of the amp, but besides that you are right. I tried already to tweak with the levels but may be I missed something.But what really could work is a tool to isolate the amp as you indicated.What do you mean exactly with the DI boxes? This is another tool to avoid the noise?

i know this sounds like a high pitched feedback but with hx effects, but it’s an issue with adding another ground when you insert your amp head into the loop.  Like I stated you need to lift the ground of the amp in a safe way which is called isolating the ground.  Assuming the head, pedalboard and what you are plugging into are the only grounds, and you don’t have the problem till you insert the head, try lifting the ground temporarily with one of those 3 to two prong adapters on the amp.  Do not use this long term because you want your amp grounded (it’s dangerous).  If you test this with the 3 to 2 prong adapter on your amps power, and it works, the ebtech hum x is your solution to isolate that ground but still have it “safe”. 

[heikobear]

1 hour ago, SimonGugala said:

 

i know this sounds like a high pitched feedback but with hx effects, but it’s an issue with adding another ground when you insert your amp head into the loop.  Like I stated you need to lift the ground of the amp in a safe way which is called isolating the ground.  Assuming the head, pedalboard and what you are plugging into are the only grounds, and you don’t have the problem till you insert the head, try lifting the ground temporarily with one of those 3 to two prong adapters on the amp.  Do not use this long term because you want your amp grounded (it’s dangerous).  If you test this with the 3 to 2 prong adapter on your amps power, and it works, the ebtech hum x is your solution to isolate that ground but still have it “safe”. 

 

I dont think we have this here in Germany, but there are very cheap DI devices. The EBtech is discontinued i think. Look at the last response from  rd2rk , he thinks this is all wrong. He insists that the problem is not solved with groound lifting devices but with the two loops.

[heikobear]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:28 PM, rd2rk said:

 

Wrong on all counts.

 

Unless you want your pure unmodified guitar signal going direct to the time-based FX - no HXS amp, no 6505, use it the way I described.

If you WANT your pure unmodified guitar signal going direct to the time-based FX - No HXS amp, no 6505, then set up a Snapshot with BOTH the HXS amp AND the FX Loop L Block DISABLED. You won't be happy with the result.

 

 

AGAIN - wait till you get the INSERT cable before you continue to drive yourself crazy with all this other stuff!

 

Well, well...I ordered two DI Boxes and the cheapest from Behringer already solved the problem. Sorry to say, but have gone too far with your affirmation. Now I can use the loop and tweaking with the levels and noise gate also provides a almost noise free tone...

[heikobear]

On 6/20/2021 at 10:13 PM, SimonGugala said:

 

i know this sounds like a high pitched feedback but with hx effects, but it’s an issue with adding another ground when you insert your amp head into the loop.  Like I stated you need to lift the ground of the amp in a safe way which is called isolating the ground.  Assuming the head, pedalboard and what you are plugging into are the only grounds, and you don’t have the problem till you insert the head, try lifting the ground temporarily with one of those 3 to two prong adapters on the amp.  Do not use this long term because you want your amp grounded (it’s dangerous).  If you test this with the 3 to 2 prong adapter on your amps power, and it works, the ebtech hum x is your solution to isolate that ground but still have it “safe”. 

 

Many thanks, I ordered two DI Boxes and the cheapest from Behringer already solved the feedback noise! A guitar expert from Thomann also didn´t have a clue, he told me to try a noise gate....It ain´t easy...

[rd2rk]

2 hours ago, heikobear said:

 

Well, well...I ordered two DI Boxes and the cheapest from Behringer already solved the problem. Sorry to say, but have gone too far with your affirmation. Now I can use the loop and tweaking with the levels and noise gate also provides a almost noise free tone...

 

Glad you got it solved. 

As @SimonGugala said, FEEDBACK is not the same as a ground loop.

Also, a high pitched screech is usually indicative of a USB ground loop, vs the 60hz hum of an electrical circuit ground loop.

I was working to solve a problem you didn't have.

 

[SimonGugala]

2 hours ago, heikobear said:

 

Many thanks, I ordered two DI Boxes and the cheapest from Behringer already solved the feedback noise! A guitar expert from Thomann also didn´t have a clue, he told me to try a noise gate....It ain´t easy...

Great!  I’m glad you solved your problem.  It always makes it difficult when people don’t understand why you are trying to add an amp head into a loop.  For some reason this happens with and unbalanced loop with an extra ground. It is not the usually “ground loop” noise but is actually caused by a ground loop.  Happy jamming!