Helix Setup

[mcdaniel52761]

I ordered a Helix rack and it's coming today. Excited and nervous at the same time. I've watched a few videos about the initial set up and they all seem to mention the 4 cable method when using an amp. I'm running a Marshall 2203 that has the effects loop in the head and a 412 cabinet. Previously, I had a Boss GT-PRO and I simply ran a cable from the main out on it to the effects loop return on the amp head so this 4 cable method is all new to me. In a setup like this am I better off just running the Helix with a single cable as I did with the GT-PRO or am I going to be totally missing out on something by not using the 4 cable method? 

[silverhead]

By not using 4CM you will be missing out on the ability to use the amp modeling in Helix. Using both a Helix amp model as well as your Marshall preamp simultaneously will sound horrible. Also you will lose the ability to position your FX blocks either before or after the preamp section of your Marshall. You will be restricted to using your Helix as an FX only device, with all FX blocks positioned before your Marshall in the signal chain. Frankly, you’d save some $$ by getting the HX FX device which has no amp modeling.

 

Using 4CM allows you to use either your Marshall preamp section or a Helix preamp model - not both - in any preset. You will also be able to position your FX blocks before or after the Marshall/Helix preamp. Be aware that your Marshall power amp section, and it’s cab/speaker, are used in 4CM. Hence your Helix preset will probably sound best with a Helix preamp model and no cab or IR block in the preset.
 

There are no strict rules about all this. Whatever sounds best to you is what you should use. But in general doubling up on either preamps or cab/IRs does not sound good. Doubling up on the power amp section (I.e. using a full amp rather than preamp model in Helix) may sound good but be careful with the signal level going into the Marshall power amp.

[rd2rk]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:27 PM, mcdaniel52761 said:

I ordered a Helix rack and it's coming today. Excited and nervous at the same time. I've watched a few videos about the initial set up and they all seem to mention the 4 cable method when using an amp. I'm running a Marshall 2203 that has the effects loop in the head and a 412 cabinet. Previously, I had a Boss GT-PRO and I simply ran a cable from the main out on it to the effects loop return on the amp head so this 4 cable method is all new to me. In a setup like this am I better off just running the Helix with a single cable as I did with the GT-PRO or am I going to be totally missing out on something by not using the 4 cable method? 

 

If you run the output from your modeler to the FX Return of your amp you are taking the amp's preamp section (the main point of using a Marshall) OUT of the circuit.

Running the modeler's output to the amp's INPUT eliminates the opportunity to use the Helix amps, as running an amp into an amp will not sound really good.

 

As @silverhead said, using 4cm has many advantages and allows you to optimize the potential of both the amp and modeler. By switching the Helix FX Loop OFF and  switching a Helix Amp (not amp+cab) ON you are essentially doing what you did with your BOSS, running the modeler directly into the Marshall's power amp through it's FX Return. With the FX Loop ON and the Helix amp OFF you are using the Helix FX (OD/DIST/MODs) into the Marshall preamp and between the Marshall preamp and poweramp (DELAY/REV/MODs).

 

4cm gives you the best of both worlds.

[mcdaniel52761]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:11 AM, rd2rk said:

 

If you run the output from your modeler to the FX Return of your amp you are taking the amp's preamp section (the main point of using a Marshall) OUT of the circuit.

Running the modeler's output to the amp's INPUT eliminates the opportunity to use the Helix amps, as running an amp into an amp will not sound really good.

 

As @silverhead said, using 4cm has many advantages and allows you to optimize the potential of both the amp and modeler. By switching the Helix FX Loop OFF and  switching a Helix Amp (not amp+cab) ON you are essentially doing what you did with your BOSS, running the modeler directly into the Marshall's power amp through it's FX Return. With the FX Loop ON and the Helix amp OFF you are using the Helix FX (OD/DIST/MODs) into the Marshall preamp and between the Marshall preamp and poweramp (DELAY/REV/MODs).

 

4cm gives you the best of both worlds.

 Suddenly at 54, I feel like the parent that needs help setting the clock on the VCR :( Ok....so I understand the part about not running and running into the preamp of the head. I have a lot to learn about the cab and IR blocks and I'm sure I'll be asking questions about those later on I'm sure. What does "Doubling up on the power amp section (I.e. using a full amp rather than preamp model in Helix) may sound good but be careful with the signal level going into the Marshall power amp." mean? I don't want to fry anything. When you're talking about switching these FX loops on and off, I assume you're talking about in the helix software and not the active/bypass switch on the back of the amp head itself? I should have said....and maybe this makes a difference.....that when I purchased this amp and cabinet all I knew was that "I wanted a 100 watt Marshall" not knowing that I would not be turning it up past 2 or so because I play along with .mp3 files and that's the extent of it. So what I'm trying to say is I don't turn the thing up loud enough to get any distortion out of it at all which is why I originally got the GT-PRO in the first place. I'm in the boat of I have what I have and now I need to make it all work at a house level more so than an arena. That said, would I still benefit from a 4cm using the Marshall amp's preamp since I'm not going to be driving it that hard? 

[rd2rk]

On 7/20/2022 at 11:43 AM, mcdaniel52761 said:

 Suddenly at 54, I feel like the parent that needs help setting the clock on the VCR :( Ok....so I understand the part about not running and running into the preamp of the head. I have a lot to learn about the cab and IR blocks and I'm sure I'll be asking questions about those later on I'm sure. What does "Doubling up on the power amp section (I.e. using a full amp rather than preamp model in Helix) may sound good but be careful with the signal level going into the Marshall power amp." mean? I don't want to fry anything. When you're talking about switching these FX loops on and off, I assume you're talking about in the helix software and not the active/bypass switch on the back of the amp head itself? I should have said....and maybe this makes a difference.....that when I purchased this amp and cabinet all I knew was that "I wanted a 100 watt Marshall" not knowing that I would not be turning it up past 2 or so because I play along with .mp3 files and that's the extent of it. So what I'm trying to say is I don't turn the thing up loud enough to get any distortion out of it at all which is why I originally got the GT-PRO in the first place. I'm in the boat of I have what I have and now I need to make it all work at a house level more so than an arena. That said, would I still benefit from a 4cm using the Marshall amp's preamp since I'm not going to be driving it that hard? 

 

First - your 100watt Marshall is WAY overkill for your stated usage. It's overkill for most bar gigs and these days a lot of concert stages are silent - IEMs ONLY! 

Second - A tube amp colors the sound and reacts very differently at lower volumes than at higher volumes.

 

You have three main choices available to you in most modelers.

Pre-amp - If you're using an EL34 tube power amp, running a Deluxe Reverb pre-amp (designed for 6v6 tubes) into it might sound interesting, but won't sound authentic. IOW, to a certain extent and especially at high volume, a tube amp can be limiting when combined with a modeler.

 

Full amp - this is a model of the amp's pre AND power amp. In the case of Helix, the interactions between them are also modeled. When using a digital preamp into a tube power amp these interactions are not present. If you run a full amp model into a tube amp you're getting the MODELED power amp and a REAL power amp superimposed on one another. Sticking to the previous example, a Deluxe Reverb with its modeled 6v6 tube power section played through an EL34 power amp might be interesting, or it might be just plain weird. I'll add at this point that what constitutes "great tone" is entirely subjective. You MIGHT really like that combination!

 

Full amp+cab - You now have an emulation of a Deluxe Reverb with its 6v6 tube section and a speaker cabinet running into an EL34 power amp and a (4-12?) speaker cab. Again, you might like it, but trying to figure out where that weird sound is coming from could be challenging...

 

Don't worry about frying anything. In the digital world, the only way that's gonna happen is if you take your Marshall's Speaker Output back into the Helix. If you do that you may need the fire extinguishers!

 

Yes, I'm talking about the FX Loop Block in the Helix, not the switch on the Marshall. While you're waiting for the Helix to arrive, DL the manual. It'll answer a LOT of questions for you!

 

IMO - modelers are designed to be used with a FLAT (typical Class D) power amp. SS amps typically sound the same at any volume level (beware of Fletcher-Munson). Personally, after trying many FRFR systems, I've decided that I don't like the sound of HF Drivers. I much prefer using a real guitar cab with a flattish, relatively wide range speaker. However, for what you're doing, a quality pair of Studio Monitors might be all you need. If you go this way, IRs can be a great tool or a rabbit hole. Start with the built-in Helix cabs. Once you learn how to use them they're not nearly as bad as the IR fans claim.

 

 

[DunedinDragon]

Generally speaking most people using 4CM are doing so in a live performance setting in order to have the various options of using that real amp along with Helix effects or other external effects, or using the modeled amps along with effects from Helix.  The main key thing with a 4CM arrangement is you already have a real cabinet, so the Helix modeled cabinets or IRs don't really come into play and you wouldn't typically include them in your signal chain for any of your presets.

It's important to understand that not everyone uses an actual amp and cabinet with the Helix.  There are many just like me that don't even own an actual amp or cabinet and simply play the Helix direct through a PA, or direct into a PC for recording, or using headphones, or direct through studio monitors, or live powered speakers.  But that's going to be very different use and simple setup and in that case you would take full advantage of all the Helix features including amps, cabinets, IRs, effects and so forth.  But that's also a very different environment than using an actual amp and cab.

[mcdaniel52761]

On 7/20/2022 at 1:28 PM, rd2rk said:

 

First - your 100watt Marshall is WAY overkill for your stated usage. It's overkill for most bar gigs and these days a lot of concert stages are silent - IEMs ONLY! 

Second - A tube amp colors the sound and reacts very differently at lower volumes than at higher volumes.

 

You have three main choices available to you in most modelers.

Pre-amp - If you're using an EL34 tube power amp, running a Deluxe Reverb pre-amp (designed for 6v6 tubes) into it might sound interesting, but won't sound authentic. IOW, to a certain extent and especially at high volume, a tube amp can be limiting when combined with a modeler.

 

Full amp - this is a model of the amp's pre AND power amp. In the case of Helix, the interactions between them are also modeled. When using a digital preamp into a tube power amp these interactions are not present. If you run a full amp model into a tube amp you're getting the MODELED power amp and a REAL power amp superimposed on one another. Sticking to the previous example, a Deluxe Reverb with its modeled 6v6 tube power section played through an EL34 power amp might be interesting, or it might be just plain weird. I'll add at this point that what constitutes "great tone" is entirely subjective. You MIGHT really like that combination!

 

Full amp+cab - You now have an emulation of a Deluxe Reverb with its 6v6 tube section and a speaker cabinet running into an EL34 power amp and a (4-12?) speaker cab. Again, you might like it, but trying to figure out where that weird sound is coming from could be challenging...

 

Don't worry about frying anything. In the digital world, the only way that's gonna happen is if you take your Marshall's Speaker Output back into the Helix. If you do that you may need the fire extinguishers!

 

Yes, I'm talking about the FX Loop Block in the Helix, not the switch on the Marshall. While you're waiting for the Helix to arrive, DL the manual. It'll answer a LOT of questions for you!

 

IMO - modelers are designed to be used with a FLAT (typical Class D) power amp. SS amps typically sound the same at any volume level (beware of Fletcher-Munson). Personally, after trying many FRFR systems, I've decided that I don't like the sound of HF Drivers. I much prefer using a real guitar cab with a flattish, relatively wide range speaker. However, for what you're doing, a quality pair of Studio Monitors might be all you need. If you go this way, IRs can be a great tool or a rabbit hole. Start with the built-in Helix cabs. Once you learn how to use them they're not nearly as bad as the IR fans claim.

 

 

Yes... it's certainly overkill but I'm married to it for better or worse.  I won't be messing with the modeling until i get deeper into it but that helps for future reference.  Since I'm using,  or will be using, a 4cm and consequently putting the knobs on the front of the amp into the mix of things (rather than just bypassing it with the 2cm).... what would i set these to in order to not color or reshape what is coming out of the helix? If that makes sense.  And in using a 4cm, does the volume on the helix or amp head take over? Just trying to get my foundation correct so the rest of the house isn't lopsided. 

[silverhead]

If you use 4CM properly the knobs on your Marshall will be relevant only when you are NOT using a Helix amp model. In that case the knobs affect the signal produced only by selected Helix FX blocks that precede the FX Loop block in the Helix preset. This is exactly analogous to a typical pedalboard setup, where the signal from your guitar passes through physical pedals before hitting the amp. Treat the amp knobs exactly as you would in that situation to ‘color or reshape’ what is coming in from your physical pedals.

 

When you use a Helix amp in your preset, you turn the FX Loop off which means the knobs of your Marshall are completely bypassed. The signal from Helix does not enter your amp’s preamp to be affected by the knobs. There is no signal present at the Input jack of your Marshall amp. The cable is connected there but it’s carrying nothing. The knobs can be ignored. There is nothing coming from the Helix to be coloured or reshaped by the knobs. (I’ve intentionally just said the same thing many different ways/times. It’s important to understand this. It’s the whole concept of 4CM).

 

The Master Volume knob on your Marshall controls the level of the power amp section, and that remains in play at all times when using 4CM, whether you are using a Helix preamp model or your Marshall preamp section. If your Helix preset includes a full amp (not preamp) model then you have an additional Master volume knob to consider: the one in the Helix model. That’s what I was referring to earlier when I said that you’ll need to be careful about levels when doubling up on the power amps (one in the Helix full amp model, the other being your physical Marshall amp).

[rd2rk]

To further clarify what @silverhead said, here's your signal chain:

 

With Helix amp OFF, Helix FX Loop ON:

 

Guitar>Helix Input>pre amp FX (OD/MODs)>Helix FX Send>Marshall Input/pre-amp (knobs active)>Marshall FX Send>Helix FX Return>post amp FX (Delay, Rev)>Helix Output>Marshall FX Loop Return>Marshall power amp

 

With Helix amp ON, Helix FX Loop OFF:

 

Guitar>Helix Input>pre amp FX (OD/MODs)>Helix amp>post amp FX (Delay/Rev)>Helix Output>Marshall FX Loop Return>Marshal power amp

 

 

[mcdaniel52761]

OK guys….I think I’ve about got this nailed down but wanted to clarify a couple of things and hoping to give it a try this weekend at some point in time and then it’ll probably be questions regarding blocks and inputs and outputs in which I will start a new topic as this one will be a mile long. And yes, rd2rk that clarification was helpful.

 

So I’m really leaning towards a 2 cable setup just running from the Helix mono out to the return on the amp head and bypassing the preamp altogether rather than using a 4cm and here’s my thought. I don’t turn that amp up much past 1 ½ or 2 for a room level volume so if I’m not driving that amp head at a high volume, going through the physical preamp on the front of the head (to me) wouldn’t make much of a difference in sound or tone or whatever you want to call it. I realize that I can’t (or shouldn’t) use amp modeling in the Helix and run that into the front input of the amp and double dip. However…(stick with me, I’m on a roll) If I ran the 2 cm and strictly used the effects loop on the back of the amp for power into the 412 cabinet and taking the physical preamp (and front knobs) out of play, I should be able to use amp modeling as well as effects. My little monkey brain says that in the Helix chain I should be able to put the effects that would normally go in front of the amp (distortion and what have you) and then insert an amp modeler and then the effects that would go after that like chorus, delay, etc… or, for that matter put whatever wherever I wanted to, Yes? So a chain would look like:

 

Guitar or Multi>Distortion>PreAmp>Delay>Chorus>Not sure if this would stay at Multi or I should use something else.

 

The reason I’m questioning this is that in the first reply, Silverhead said: “By not using 4CM you will be missing out on the ability to use the amp modeling in Helix. Using both a Helix amp model as well as your Marshall preamp simultaneously will sound horrible. Also you will lose the ability to position your FX blocks either before or after the preamp section of your Marshall. You will be restricted to using your Helix as an FX only device, with all FX blocks positioned before your Marshall in the signal chain.”

 I don’t understand why you couldn’t use amp modeling if you were using a 2 cable method. The second sentence I understand 100%. I also understand that I will lose the ability to position the FX blocks before or after the preamp section of my Marshall…BUT I could place them before or after an amp model in the Helix chain on a preset or in creating a new patch or whatever Helix calls it.

 

Now, providing that I’m right about all of what I said above…rd2rk, you mentioned the pre-amp, full amp, and full amp+cab in the modeling choices. If I’m using the 2203 strictly for power and going into a 412 cabinet, would I only use a pre-amp model? OR...should the full amp or Full amp+cab be in play here? Just using the effects loop and bypassing the physical preamp would make this a FLAT power amp, correct?

 

And last question….If I’m using the 2cm, is there anything that I won’t or shouldn’t use such as IR’s or anything else you can think of?

[rd2rk]

On 7/22/2022 at 2:28 PM, mcdaniel52761 said:

Now, providing that I’m right about all of what I said above…rd2rk, you mentioned the pre-amp, full amp, and full amp+cab in the modeling choices. If I’m using the 2203 strictly for power and going into a 412 cabinet, would I only use a pre-amp model? OR...should the full amp or Full amp+cab be in play here? Just using the effects loop and bypassing the physical preamp would make this a FLAT power amp, correct?

 

My point about using your Marshall AT ALL is that it will NEVER be a FLAT amp. It will ALWAYS color the sound of whatever you feed it. It will NEVER sound it's best at low volumes. It was NOT designed for low volumes!

 

Class D SS amps are designed to be FLAT(ish). Some are DESIGNED to sound or at least react like tube amps. The details are in the specs/mfrs product descriptions.

 

The reason that many players use studio monitors is that they are DESIGNED to be flat(ish) and to sound the same throughout the volume range. At very low volume (<80/85db) you have to consider Fletcher-Munson (I hope you've Googled it by now), and that can be accommodated using the Global EQ in Helix.

 

Another way of saying all of this is that getting good tone at low volumes is kind of like being a jeweler, and your Marshall is a sledgehammer! Using a 412 cab in that configuration is like using a 5lb sledge or a 25 lb sledge. Guitar speaker cabs, like tube power amps, are designed to be used at volume, and will always sound like THOSE speakers in THAT cab.

 

M25/V30 Celestions are part of the MARSHALL/MESA sound. Alnico Blue and Silver are famously Voxy. Jensens are Fendery. Using a 412 cab with Celestions will always impart a distinct tone. Using Studio Monitors allows you to use the built-in Helix cabs or IRs to give a more authentic cab sound to whatever model of amp that you're using.

 

Pre-amp vs Full-amp - There's really no chiseled in stone rules here. IN GENERAL, you'll get the most AUTHENTIC sound using the type of pre-amp that was designed to be used with your power amp. So, EL34s? Marshall.

 

However, if you MUST use the Marshall head, at low volume you MIGHT get better results using the FULL amp model, as the interaction of the original pre and power amp combination is being modeled, and the physical tube amp is doing little more than making it audible.

 

Hope this further clarifies things for you.

 

NOTE: At this point somebody usually jumps in to say "Well, I use my Marshall Super Lead and 412 Stack at 50db in my bedroom and it sounds GREAT!"

Whatever.

[datacommando]

On 7/22/2022 at 11:39 PM, rd2rk said:

NOTE: At this point somebody usually jumps in to say "Well, I use my Marshall Super Lead and 412 Stack at 50db in my bedroom and it sounds GREAT!"

Whatever.

Erm… well, I don’t for precisely the reasons you have given in your post.
 

Although I did like your reference to sledgehammers. Is that like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut?

 

;-)

[mcdaniel52761]

Alright. So if we were to go shopping to replace the head and cabinet, what would you put in the cart...specifically? I know zero about monitors so a name and model number would be ideal as well as whatever else would do the trick. I'd prefer not to have to sell any major organs. Not to put this all on you, but you're far more versed in this than I am :)

 

[rd2rk]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:18 PM, datacommando said:

Erm… well, I don’t for precisely the reasons you have given in your post.
 

Although I did like your reference to sledgehammers. Is that like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut?

 

;-)

 

Exactly!

[rd2rk]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:31 PM, mcdaniel52761 said:

Alright. So if we were to go shopping to replace the head and cabinet, what would you put in the cart...specifically? I know zero about monitors so a name and model number would be ideal as well as whatever else would do the trick. Not to put this all on you, but you're far more versed in this than I am :)

 

 

Go to Sweetwater.com. Search for "Studio Monitors". Read "About Studio Monitors".

Look at what's on offer.

I would go for a minimum of 5". I have an old pair of Rokit6 G3 that sound fine.

Many players use Yamaha HS5 or HS7. A Sub isn't essential, but sounds nice.

JBL and Presonus are also popular. I've read that Mackie's are bassy, but I've never tried them.

There are at least 50 threads on this topic in the Digital and Modeling Forum on TGP.

 

FWIW - Lately I've been using a Catalyst100 on the .5watt setting. L6 employs some EQ trickery to offset the Fletcher-Munson effect at low volumes. It sounds REALLY GOOD at 60-75db, which is as loud as I can get in my apartment. Drawback vs Studio Monitors is that the Cat is mono. Stereo is fun!

 

Just something else to consider if AITR is a concern.

[datacommando]

On 7/20/2022 at 6:43 PM, mcdaniel52761 said:

I would not be turning it up past 2 or so because I play along with .mp3 files and that's the extent of it.

Hi,

 

If this is the “real extent” of what you would be doing, then ditch the Marshall and get some powered studio monitors. Hook them up to your Helix Rack using the XLR out on the back. Now patch your computer to your Rack using a USB cable, then you can playback you mp3 files, YouTube or whatever to jam along to hassle free. This will allow you to use all the amp models in the Helix without compromise. If you have ever listened to a fully produced guitar track on playback in a studio control room, then this will be as close as it gets to that.

 

You don’t need to sell a kidney - there are some very decent offerings in the budget end of the monitor market, but it comes down to buying the best you can afford. I started out on 5” near-field bi-amped monitors that were “good enough”, but moved on to 8 inch monitors better suited to my space. Read the reviews of any that you think might be good for you - it’s your decision, but the Marshall is definitely not the route to go if you want your investment in Helix to sound right in a home environment. You will require a system that can produce clarity and definition across a range of volumes without distortion or colouration. You would be surprised what some people are using without breaking the bank.

 

Hope this helps;makes sense.

[rd2rk]

OTOH - If you LOVE your Marshall (nothing to be ashamed about ;-) ) and you're not so old or otherwise prevented from ever joining a band and playing out, and if it's financially feasible, just put that monster in the closet until you are TRULY READY TO ROCK! (insert devil on my shoulder emoji)

 

Just don't fool yourself - Marshalls are made to be up on stage making people's booties bounce and their ears ring!

[mcdaniel52761]

On 7/22/2022 at 7:36 PM, datacommando said:

Hi,

 

If this is the “real extent” of what you would be doing, then ditch the Marshall and get some powered studio monitors. Hook them up to your Helix Rack using the XLR out on the back. Now patch your computer to your Rack using a USB cable, then you can playback you mp3 files, YouTube or whatever to jam along to hassle free. This will allow you to use all the amp models in the Helix without compromise. If you have ever listened to a fully produced guitar track on playback in a studio control room, then this will be as close as it gets to that.

 

You don’t need to sell a kidney - there are some very decent offerings in the budget end of the monitor market, but it comes down to buying the best you can afford. I started out on 5” near-field bi-amped monitors that were “good enough”, but moved on to 8 inch monitors better suited to my space. Read the reviews of any that think might be good for you - it’s your decision, but the Marshall is definitely not the route to go if you want your investment in Helix to sound right in a home environment. You will require a system that can produce clarity and definition across a range of volumes without distortion or colouration. You would be surprised what some people are using without breaking the bank.

 

Hope this helps;makes sense.

It pretty much is. I mean, I have a side in the basement where my guitar stuff is and I play loud enough that between the music and the guitar itself, if someone was standing next to me talking I probably couldn't hear them or at least clearly. Think maybe a bar scene but not an arena :) I currently run my music through a Logitech Z-5500 surround computer speaker setup. Supposedly 65 watts each satellite speaker (x4) and then a 10" sub that is supposed to have 180 watts. rd2rk mentioned the Yamaha HS7's and those don't look too bad. I didn't realize that they were powered speakers so I was thinking I'd have to get speakers plus some sort of an amp to push them so all in all the price is good. I'm trying to wrap my head around how these small speakers are going to have the "balls" I guess for lack of a better word to output that much sound and handle the distortion but maybe that's just because I'm use to using amps with 10" or 12" speakers.

 

The HS7's are $660 and the HS8's are $798 at Sweetwater. Would there be much of a difference in sound between these two? or would you recommend something different? 

 

There are setting on the back of the speakers that have a selector switch for Room Control 0, -2db, or -4db...High Trim +2db, 0, -2db...and a level knob that has -10 all the way counter clockwise, +4db straight up, and -10 db all the way clockwise. What should these be set at for use with the Helix? As far as the level goes (Assuming that it's a volume level), how does that work in conjuncture with the Helix's main volume output knob?

[mcdaniel52761]

On 7/22/2022 at 8:12 PM, rd2rk said:

OTOH - If you LOVE your Marshall (nothing to be ashamed about ;-) ) and you're not so old or otherwise prevented from ever joining a band and playing out, and if it's financially feasible, just put that monster in the closet until you are TRULY READY TO ROCK! (insert devil on my shoulder emoji)

 

Just don't fool yourself - Marshalls are made to be up on stage making people's booties bounce and their ears ring!

I know....and I do love it. BUT I've never liked the sound I've gotten out of it because (I'm guessing) I have to be in the same house with my wife and 5 dogs and they'd all disown me. Not only that, but then we're back to square one again with the Helix so....there's that. I probably won't sell it because I'd take too much of a loss although I did find my sales receipt from 2005 when I bought the head for 1999.99 from Zzounds and noticed that they're going for $3549.99 now. That's nuts! I wish I would have gotten a 50 watt head but there again if the amp modeling in the Helix isn't going to play nice with a tube amp like that then there's no point.

[rd2rk]

I just had a quick look at that Logitech system. The specs make it hard to tell, but it seems to have Line Inputs for a music player. You can take the Outs from your rack to those inputs and you might not even need Studio Monitors. I have a Sony bookshelf system with two 2-way 6" speakers and a 10" sub that I use in the office for my HXStomp and it doesn't sound half bad! Try it before you spend for Studio Monitors, you might be pleasantly surprised!

[rd2rk]

On 7/22/2022 at 7:36 PM, mcdaniel52761 said:

The HS7's are $660 and the HS8's are $798 at Sweetwater. Would there be much of a difference in sound between these two? or would you recommend something different? 

 

There are setting on the back of the speakers that have a selector switch for Room Control 0, -2db, or -4db...High Trim +2db, 0, -2db...and a level knob that has -10 all the way counter clockwise, +4db straight up, and -10 db all the way clockwise. What should these be set at for use with the Helix? As far as the level goes (Assuming that it's a volume level), how does that work in conjuncture with the Helix's main volume output knob?

 

The difference between the HS7 and HS8 will be minimal, mostly in the lower frequencies. All of those settings should be explained in the user guide, but have to do with the way the speakers react to the acoustic environment they're in. 

Bigger room, bigger speakers.

I set my KRK's at MAX (per the user guide) and control the level from my AI/mixer.

I have the Hi Freq set at 0db (FLAT) and the Lo Freq set at +2db for a little bass boost (no sub).

 

Generally speaking the volume knob on the Helix should be maxed and the level controlled from the mixer.

If you don't have a mixer you can use the Helix Volume knob, the effect on the overall tone is not really something you'll notice.
More of a hi-fi tone snob kind of concern, don't worry about it.

[datacommando]

On 7/23/2022 at 2:36 AM, mcdaniel52761 said:

I currently run my music through a Logitech Z-5500 surround computer speaker setup. Supposedly 65 watts each satellite speaker (x4) and then a 10" sub that is supposed to have 180 watts.

Hi,

 

As noted by “rd2rk” in the post above, you could give your Logitech a spin with the Helix Rack and see what you think. My comment about this (after doing a quick read of some of the specs) is, the system states a “frequency response of 33Hz to 25kHz overall with the help of the subwoofer”, but I haven’t seen a chart of how flat the response is between those two points. It apparently also uses “real-time digital sound equalization that takes each speaker and improves the overall quality of sound generated from every component.” My guess that is going to enhance the audio in a way that Hi Fi speakers add a bit of polish to what you’re listening to.
 

OTOH, Studio monitors are usually designed to give a reasonably flat response across the 20Hz - 20kHz frequency range, thus avoiding any colouration to the sound. Anyhow, this is the sort of thing that only you can decide. If what you have works for you - fine, and if you decide later to invest in a pair of Yamaha HS7, that’s also fine. Meantime “mothball” the Marshall as an investment.

 

”rd2rk”, seems to have covered all the other points.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

[mcdaniel52761]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:39 PM, rd2rk said:

 

 

Guitar speaker cabs, like tube power amps, are designed to be used at volume, and will always sound like THOSE speakers in THAT cab.

 

 

Yep....you're right. I plugged it in today in the effects loop and all of the presets that were based on distortion sounded about the same regardless of which amp modeler was used. There was a little difference but nothing crazy like I was hoping for. I did notice that turning the cab off in the chain made it far more "unmuffled" sounding. We were talking about the pre-amp block vs. just the amp block thing and if you take the amp block down to just the preamp block all it does is lower the output so that when you turn the volume knob up it sounds just like it did when using the amp block :( 

 

Looks like I'm going to be ordering some studio monitors. Before I do though, is there any reason I would (should) consider FRFR speakers instead? And like studio monitors, I assume that they are (ideally) used in pairs as well? I'm really hoping that the stereo effect will sound better than my 412! 

 

On a side note, I stopped in a local shop today who was the phrase "sound and lights" in their name just to see if they had any studio monitors and they didn't he was asking me what I wanted to do and I was explaining to him about this whole 2cm into the effects loop and bypassing the preamp thing. Knowing that I had a 2203 with an effects loop, he told me that some Marshalls have a circuit where you can bypass the preamp and some don't. I said yeah, the effects loop. He told me that the effects loop doesn't take the preamp out of the picture and I should just come out of the Helix and plug it straight into the front of the amp where the guitar input should go. I left.

[rd2rk]

On 7/23/2022 at 2:09 PM, mcdaniel52761 said:

On a side note, I stopped in a local shop today who was the phrase "sound and lights" in their name

 

He was probably selling washing machines last week.

 

On 7/23/2022 at 2:09 PM, mcdaniel52761 said:

Before I do though, is there any reason I would (should) consider FRFR speakers instead?

 

FRFR means "Full Range Flat Response". While nearly any hi-fi speaker or PA speaker is "Full Range" (20hz-20khz), there's no such thing as truly "Flat Response", it's a marketing gimmick. The closest you can get is beyond a normal person's budget. The higher the quality you can afford in Studio Monitors the closer you'll get, but we're talking about multi thousands of dollars EACH for the best. Most companies that make Studio Monitors will have Response Curve charts on their web sites. We working class mortals make do with "close enough" affordable monitors.

 

As for FRFR speakers such as the Headrush FRFR108 and FRFR112 (which I have) there's two problems. The first I've already mentioned - they're NOT FRFR.

The second is the Hi Freq driver. Essentially, these are PA speakers, designed to project your sound out over a large area, maybe outdoors, occupied by an audience. The HF Driver is usually separate from the LF Driver and there's a time displacement between when the sound is generated and when it coalesces into a complete sound often 10 to 20 feet away. Higher priced speakers have DSP which delays the HF vs the LF to make up for this, but they are still PA speakers.

 

Studio Monitors are also known as "Near Field" monitors. They are designed to sound best in a small, enclosed area such as the sound booth in a recording studio. There are usually multiple pairs - big ones so that the band can come in and listen to the mix, and smaller ones that the recording engineer references while recording/mixing. And, of course, the smallest - headphones.

 

You can get tiny 3.5" monitors that sound best at your desk next to your computer, or bigger ones like 6, 7 or 8" for bigger rooms. My "studio" is my living room which is approximately 15' x 15'. My 6" Rokits are MORE than sufficient to fill the room. IIRC they are 25watts (HF driver) x 50watts (LF driver).

 

A final mention of a third type of speaker, coaxial. In a coaxial speaker the HF Driver is built into the LF driver at the center of the cone usually behind the cap. This provides a physical delay to the HF and mixes the HF and LF at the source. Some speaker cabinets designed specifically for guitar are built with these. The Line6 Powercab speakers are one example of this design. I had the PC112+, didn't like it and sold it on for a PC212+. The + models have DSP that allows you to use them as "FRFR" with the HF Driver for use with IRs and Helix Cab Sims, w/o the HF driver but EQ'd to sound like popular speakers such as V30, GB25, Jensen etc., or without HF driver or EQ, just the raw speaker. The last two modes (sans HF driver) are intended to provide the AITR experience. How well they do that is hotly debated.

People seem to love them or hate them.

 

The PC212+ also has a stereo emulation that works surprisingly well in a small area. I like it for use with my Catalyst100 on top as the DRY component of a W/D/W rig and the PC212+ as the wet component. I like the PC212+, but L6 has essentially abandoned the line and there will likely be no upgrades or bug fixes (minor bugs related to speaker mode control over L6 link, mostly surmountable using MIDI) in the future. They're pretty expensive new and not very common used.