Why aren't volume levels balanced across amp presets?

[mtumi]

Hi - 

 

I've seen some posts on managing levels across different presets and amps, which are helpful. 

 

What I don't understand is why this is necessary in the first place.   Is there a reason why Line 6 doesn't create all the amp presets so they are at the same level to start, rather than have people struggle with adjusting them?   Is it because the use case of switching from one amp/cab model to another is considered a minority use case (since people don't usually just swap amps on stage in real life)? 

 

I'm not intending this to be critical necessarily, as I assume there is some reason for it.  Just curious as to what the reason(s) is(are).

 

M

 

 

[DunedinDragon]

No two different amps in the entire world produce the same volume at the same settings and never have, so why would their modeled versions be different given that modelling is simply a mathematical version of those circuits?  It's not that it's necessary, it's simply the same reality you face should you walk into your local Guitar Center and plug into two different amps.  Those two amps will respond very differently to how their knobs are set because that's what they're designed to do.  Nevermind that the amp is only one thing in the signal chain that can affect your volume level.  EQ, compressors, overdrive pedals all have a cumulative effect on sound volume.

Line 6's job is to provide the most accurate representation of those amps and effects possible, not baby step you through setting them  up.  If that sort of thing is too overwhelming for you, maybe this isn't your kind of business.

[theElevators]

Every guitar pickup is different.  No two single-coils will behave the same way with 2 different amps.  Some pickups "clean up" nicely, while others have more distortion.... this is why there will be volume jumps ALWAYS if you don't dial your tones exactly for your specific guitar.  Who knows what guitar was used to dial in factory presets / default settings... most likely not the same exact one as you use. 

 

One more thing is that pickup heights also play a very important role in how your guitar sounds. They contribute to the amount of clarity and loudness as well.  I find that these differences are a lot more pronounced on the Helix compared to real-world guitar amplifiers -- every little difference is exagerated.  For example, I used to use 2 different guitars with my pedals interchangeably plugged into any amp that was available.  Now, I really need to make sure that the signal strength, amount of gain/distortion is the same. 

 

There you go. 

[mtumi]

Thx both for the helpful responses!

 

def interesting to hear that the difference is even more pronounced vs real-world amps. 

 

I thought it might also be that some amps have their most characteristic sound at a higher volume (eg you dont use a marshall stack to play a small coffeehouse gig), so they are purposefully setting them up in such a way that they sound like people would expect them to at the outset. 

 

best

 

M

 

[codamedia]

@mtumi... many great reasons, those are already listed above.

In case you didn't know this, Line 6 gave us options that you can use to your advantage in this case. 

 

User defaults to the rescue, roughly page 19 of the manual.

 

If this is something that really bothers you... simply go through each amp model and adjust the "channel volume" of each amp model so they match -  and save them as a user default. The next time you are auditioning amp models, they'll be leveled the way "you" wanted them leveled. 

[brue58ski]

On 2/22/2023 at 6:49 AM, mtumi said:

Thx both for the helpful responses!

 

def interesting to hear that the difference is even more pronounced vs real-world amps. 

 

I thought it might also be that some amps have their most characteristic sound at a higher volume (eg you dont use a marshall stack to play a small coffeehouse gig), so they are purposefully setting them up in such a way that they sound like people would expect them to at the outset. 

 

best

 

M

 

 

I wouldn't characterize it like that. Line 6 is about raw amp accuracy. So setting different amp's levels with different parameter settings so the levels are all the same isn't accurate. A super clean amp turned up will be louder than an amp that's know for distortion that has it's levels lower but just naturally produces more distortion. And as you turn preamp and amp parameters up and down, they affect the volume level as well. I'm going to guess that if you were to take a Fender model and a Marshall model in Helix and compare them to the real things, the relative volume levels of each model will match the real things fairly closely. And as you adjust the pre amp and amp parameters the relative volume level would match the real amps. Full disclosure, I have no evidence or proof of this and have never tested it. It is a huge guess. If you want a modeler that compresses/EQ's etc. the amps so they are all the same level with diverse parameter settings, I think there are plenty of those out there. Line 6 goes for accuracy. I guess I would say Line 6 doesn't set them up the way people would expect them as much as they set them up the way they actually are, whether anyone expects it or not.

[mtumi]

oh that's interesting!  I never thought of that but it's another logical explanation for why they would be set up the way they are.  Thanks!

[ajwain]

I have a similar problem. I have recently switched from a BOSS Multi-FX to a Helix floor and am using it in Stompbox mode.

If I set up an overdrive as the first block in my chain (and leave all subsequent blocks bypassed), I can adjust the output level to be roughly the same as my bypassed signal. So, if I set it up with a Strat, for example, I observe no perceptible change in level when I engage the overdrive - the overall output remains similar.

However, when I change to a Les Paul, I would expect the overall output to be much louder, and this is indeed the case with the bypassed signal. However, when I engage the overdrive block, my overall output volume reduces significantly. 

 

Am I doing something wrong? I fully understand that the gain structure would change enormously due to the increase in the input signal to the overdrive, but what I didn't expect was the volume to drop like a stone along with the extra compression and more saturated tone. 

 

If the answer here is that I need to create separate patches for the different guitars, then possibly the Helix is not for me. I've used my BOSS GT-6 and GT-10 without this problem for over 20 years, and it is only within the last two weeks that I have obtained a Helix. However, I'd still like to understand why the drop in volume... I can understand the overdrive compressing the signal but not to make it quieter than the original input level.

 

Oh, and by the way... I'm using the Helix in this example with no amp model selected. I'm using it purely as a stompbox into the front of a guitar amp. Eventually I mean to experiment with the amp modelling and go straight into FOH, but for the moment, I want it to emulate my previous rig.

 

Comments and suggestions gratefully received.