Fuzzystump Posted October 12, 2023 Share Posted October 12, 2023 I realize this board is not well traveled, but there are at least a couple of you that I see respond to many of the posts and have extensive experience with both products I'm evaluating. Quick Background: I have been playing with a Helix at church for about 3 years, and we use a silent stage. At home I generally practice with my HS8's (running tracks, and sometimes Helix Native via my Scarlett Solo interface). Sometimes I will plug my guitar into an amp and play along with the tracks coming out of my HS8's. A few months ago I purchased a PC112+ after wanting one for years - it was great, but I started to 2nd guess the nearly $700 I spent on it when I could get a Catalyst 100 for just over half the cost, and it was a stand alone amp to boot. I ended up buying a Catalyst 100 and tested it side by side with the PC112+. Ultimately I prefered the PC112+ but couldn't justify how expensive it was relative to the Catalyst, so I returned the PC and kept the Catalyst. Fastforward to now and I recently picked up a used PC112+ for $400. I'm pretty sure I am going to take a loss on the Catalyst and sell it to keep the PC112+. As I'm testing them out, I've read that many people feel the Catalyst works as a great companion to the Helix, and people leave the Helix patch alone and plug into the poweramp in on the Catalyst. When I do this, I'm dissapointed with how it sounds. I've tried disabling IR's or cabs in the helix, and on some things this can sound "ok" and other amps it sounds like trash. Am I doing something wrong or is this really just an "ok" solution that those with a Catalyst are doing when it actually doesn't sound good at all and a purpose built FRFR (or Powercab) works much better with the Helix? I feel like I MUST be missing something how many times I've read folks praising the Catalyst paired with a Helix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 A few things to consider. Catalyst is an open back cab. It can sound great with Helix amps that model amps that use open back cabs ITRW. IMO, using it with clean to edge of breakup/mid-gain amps is as close to AITR as it gets with modeled amps of that type. Powercab is a closed back cab and when using the speaker emulations with mid to high-gain amps is as close to AITR as it gets with modeled amps of that type, keeping in mind that a 112/212 cab will NEVER sound like a 412. Using cabs/IRs with full range speakers ("FRFR") might sound good but is NEVER AITR. I actually hate that term because if you can HEAR it, it IS AITR! The point is that FRFR is simply not the same as a guitar speaker. The HF Driver adds a hi-fi element that simply doesn't exist in a guitar speaker/cab that starts to roll off HF at around 5k, and though you can use EQ to do that, it's just not the same. Another consideration is cab placement and room acoustics. Catalyst or Powercab at 3ft off the floor has less low end than when it's ON the floor due to the lack of floor coupling effect. But, depending on the room acoustics, you may prefer that and the added effect of the HF "beaming" effect that you get when the speaker is aimed at your ears rather than your knees. Then there's the fact that, if you live in an apartment, your neighbors might not appreciate the transference to their ceilings when your amp is on the floor! Speaking of living in an apartment (I do), there's the evil duo of Fletcher-Munson. Catalyst is designed to compensate for that when used at the lower attenuation settings, Powercab is not, though you can use EQ to compensate. What's a poor guitar slinger to do? Before selling one or the other, take all of the above into consideration as well as the style of music you play. Experiment with different cab placements relative to your room acoustics. Then consider keeping both! I keep my Catalyst on top of my PC212 which is on a small 8inch "step" stool. The closed back Powercab gets some of the effect of "floor coupling" with less vibration transference (for the neighbors), the Catalyst is aimed at my chest (closer to my ears) for better HF reception and the larger speaker surface allows a bigger sound with less actual volume. IOW, win-win! Keep them both! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulTBaker Posted October 13, 2023 Share Posted October 13, 2023 My setup at home is close to yours rd2. I have the 112+ on top of my 212+ and really love it. I have never played/heard the catalyst. Your post was the first time I heard that it had the Flether/Munson built in. That is interesting. I know it really is impossible to perfectly "fix" it with eq, but you can come close. I used to use an eq block to compensate for Fletcher/Munson and it was pretty close, but definitely had room for improvement. I know it would be hard for them to add that feature as a block or eq settings because of the infinte ways of playback with the helix, but it would be cool if they provided something as a start for people. Just a thought! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiboy Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 catalyst attenuates the power amp in and doesnt sound as good as it could- if they disabled the attenuated it would sound great- does sound better than katana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 With the switch set to "Power Amp In" it IS attenuated. If you set the switch to FX Loop it is NOT attenuated! It may or may not be as loud as your Katana 60, but with the switch set to FX LOOP it is NOT attenuated if the power switch is set to the full 60watt setting. Keep in mind that the Cat and Katana use different amplifier technologies, different speakers and have different cab designs. Have you compared them using an actual db meter? What is the ACTUAL difference in SPL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiboy Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 On 10/29/2024 at 11:07 AM, rd2rk said: With the switch set to "Power Amp In" it IS attenuated. If you set the switch to FX Loop it is NOT attenuated! It may or may not be as loud as your Katana 60, but with the switch set to FX LOOP it is NOT attenuated if the power switch is set to the full 60watt setting. Keep in mind that the Cat and Katana use different amplifier technologies, different speakers and have different cab designs. Have you compared them using an actual db meter? What is the ACTUAL difference in SPL? the fx in is impacted by the amp model power amp should just be straight into the power amp- the attentuation ruins teh catalyst for use with modellers and ther is no ned for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 How many times do I need to say it? If you set the switch to FX Loop it is NOT attenuated! With the switch set to POWER AMP IN, IIRC, it's a 10db attenuation. My Helix with an amp emulation into the power amp sounds the same regardless of the switch position, just LOUDER with the switch set to FX Loop. Sounds great either way. I use my HXS for front end FX with the Cat's amps (4cm) and the Cat delay and reverb (switch set to FX Loop). Sounds great this way too. I wish they'd left the switch out of the design so it wouldn't confuse people who, for some reason, think that you NEED to set the switch to POWER AMP IN if you use a modeler. You don't. You can get the same effect by turning down the Output Level on the multi-fx if it's too hot. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiboy Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 On 10/29/2024 at 1:25 PM, rd2rk said: How many times do I need to say it? If you set the switch to FX Loop it is NOT attenuated! With the switch set to POWER AMP IN, IIRC, it's a 10db attenuation. My Helix with an amp emulation into the power amp sounds the same regardless of the switch position, just LOUDER with the switch set to FX Loop. Sounds great either way. I use my HXS for front end FX with the Cat's amps (4cm) and the Cat delay and reverb (switch set to FX Loop). Sounds great this way too. I wish they'd left the switch out of the design so it wouldn't confuse people who, for some reason, think that you NEED to set the switch to POWER AMP IN if you use a modeler. You don't. You can get the same effect by turning down the Output Level on the multi-fx if it's too hot. fx loop in is colored by the onbord models and - power amp should not be attenuated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 On 10/30/2024 at 7:20 AM, mandiboy said: fx loop in is colored by the onbord models and - power amp should not be attenuated Whatever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiboy Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 On 10/30/2024 at 9:48 AM, rd2rk said: Whatever. so you acknowledge the defect in attenuating the power amp in signal ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted October 31 Share Posted October 31 On 10/31/2024 at 6:23 AM, mandiboy said: so you acknowledge the defect in attenuating the power amp in signal ? I bought my Cat on the day of its initial release, the first one my local GC sold. I use it every day - solo, with Helix/HXS, with the ToneX pedal and with VSTs. I've tried three times to explain this, but perhaps I have not been clear enough in my explanation. I will make one final attempt to explain how the Catalyst works. The following is true regardless of the setting on the "Output Power" (attenuator) switch. When you use the "Power Amp In" configuration - external multi-fx output>Catalyst RETURN - you are bypassing the Cat's preamp section. if you have the MODE switch in the "POWER AMP IN" position, the power amp IS attenuated by 10db. This is not a "defect", it is the way the unit is designed. This allows headroom for different multi-fx units which may have differing output levels. HOWEVER - using the switch in this position IS NOT REQUIRED, and when the switch is in the "FX LOOP" position, THE POWER AMP IS NOT ATTENUATED! Nor is the signal "colored" by the Cat's preamps, as they are not in the circuit at all. Any "coloration" that you may think you are hearing is likely the result of the Fletcher-Munson effect. Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia Below a certain threshold, if you drop a signal's level by 10db the highs and lows will sound like they are attenuated. This is a result of human psychoacoustics, that is, at lower volumes we hear the mid-range frequencies (the frequencies of the human voice) better than the highs/lows. Psychoacoustics - Wikipedia I hope that this clears up your confusion. If not, then by all means sell/return your Catalyst - it's not the amp for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiboy Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 On 10/31/2024 at 2:02 PM, rd2rk said: I bought my Cat on the day of its initial release, the first one my local GC sold. I use it every day - solo, with Helix/HXS, with the ToneX pedal and with VSTs. I've tried three times to explain this, but perhaps I have not been clear enough in my explanation. I will make one final attempt to explain how the Catalyst works. The following is true regardless of the setting on the "Output Power" (attenuator) switch. When you use the "Power Amp In" configuration - external multi-fx output>Catalyst RETURN - you are bypassing the Cat's preamp section. if you have the MODE switch in the "POWER AMP IN" position, the power amp IS attenuated by 10db. This is not a "defect", it is the way the unit is designed. This allows headroom for different multi-fx units which may have differing output levels. HOWEVER - using the switch in this position IS NOT REQUIRED, and when the switch is in the "FX LOOP" position, THE POWER AMP IS NOT ATTENUATED! Nor is the signal "colored" by the Cat's preamps, as they are not in the circuit at all. Any "coloration" that you may think you are hearing is likely the result of the Fletcher-Munson effect. Equal-loudness contour - Wikipedia Below a certain threshold, if you drop a signal's level by 10db the highs and lows will sound like they are attenuated. This is a result of human psychoacoustics, that is, at lower volumes we hear the mid-range frequencies (the frequencies of the human voice) better than the highs/lows. Psychoacoustics - Wikipedia I hope that this clears up your confusion. If not, then by all means sell/return your Catalyst - it's not the amp for you! you are wrong the return input is colored by the amp model and there is ZERO reason for power amp to be attenuated- ITS a DEFECT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhead Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 On 11/1/2024 at 8:13 AM, mandiboy said: you are wrong the return input is colored by the amp model and there is ZERO reason for power amp to be attenuated- ITS a DEFECT The way to get suspected defects resolved is to open a support ticket. Have you done so yet? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted November 1 Share Posted November 1 On 11/1/2024 at 6:13 AM, mandiboy said: you are wrong the return input is colored by the amp model and there is ZERO reason for power amp to be attenuated- ITS a DEFECT Open a support ticket. You've got a defective unit, not a defective design. If the design were defective, the problem would occur on ALL units, not just yours, and yours is the ONLY complaint of this that I've ever seen. Good Luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiboy Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 On 11/1/2024 at 8:28 AM, silverhead said: The way to get suspected defects resolved is to open a support ticket. Have you done so yet? power amp is attenuated on ALL catalysts so its a product design defect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverhead Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 What did Line 6 say in response to your support ticket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted November 4 Share Posted November 4 On 11/4/2024 at 5:37 AM, mandiboy said: power amp is attenuated on ALL catalysts so its a product design defect Not on mine. You've never played mine, so obviously, you've not tried EVERY Catalyst, so how can you possibly state that? We've either got a language barrier problem here or a comprehension issue. Are you sure that you know what "attenuation" actually means? I've explained multiple times how the amp works. You've never acknowledged anything I've told you. On 10/31/2024 at 12:02 PM, rd2rk said: The following is true regardless of the setting on the "Output Power" (attenuator) switch. When you use the "Power Amp In" configuration - external multi-fx output>Catalyst RETURN - you are bypassing the Cat's preamp section. if you have the MODE switch in the "POWER AMP IN" position, the power amp IS attenuated by 10db. This is not a "defect", it is the way the unit is designed. This allows headroom for different multi-fx units which may have differing output levels. HOWEVER - using the switch in this position IS NOT REQUIRED, and when the switch is in the "FX LOOP" position, THE POWER AMP IS NOT ATTENUATED! You just keep insisting that you're right, and now you're doubling down on being wrong. What did support say in response to the ticket that you opened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somebodyelse Posted November 5 Share Posted November 5 On 11/4/2024 at 3:55 PM, rd2rk said: Not on mine. You've never played mine, so obviously, you've not tried EVERY Catalyst, so how can you possibly state that? We've either got a language barrier problem here or a comprehension issue. Are you sure that you know what "attenuation" actually means? I've explained multiple times how the amp works. You've never acknowledged anything I've told you. You just keep insisting that you're right, and now you're doubling down on being wrong. What did support say in response to the ticket that you opened? Give it up,man. You can't argue with a moron, and I read in another thread that he returned it last Wednesday. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiboy Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 On 11/4/2024 at 10:55 AM, rd2rk said: Not on mine. You've never played mine, so obviously, you've not tried EVERY Catalyst, so how can you possibly state that? We've either got a language barrier problem here or a comprehension issue. Are you sure that you know what "attenuation" actually means? I've explained multiple times how the amp works. You've never acknowledged anything I've told you. You just keep insisting that you're right, and now you're doubling down on being wrong. What did support say in response to the ticket that you opened? Clearly its a design defect-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandiboy Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 On 11/5/2024 at 3:13 AM, somebodyelse said: Give it up,man. You can't argue with a moron, and I read in another thread that he returned it last Wednesday. the volume drop is real its a design defect can hear it here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rd2rk Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 Again, and also in the referenced thread, I explained how the Power Amp In/FX Loop switch works, and why. You SOLD your Catalyst. That was the correct thing to do. It's WAY too complex a device for you. Move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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