Compensating for the 'amp in the room'

[thirdspace]

Hi all - I'm guessing this question has been asked in different ways over the years but here goes... Assuming the Helix is attempting to recreate the sound of an amp with a mic in front of it, as if the cab and mic were in a different room and you are sitting in the control room (big assumption - correct me if I have that wrong), what about if you were trying to recreate the sound as if you are in the same room as the amp, or on stage with an amp. The challenge I'm having is that when an amp is in the same space there is the guitar and the amp work together to create a specific sound that is not the same when the they are not. That is, resonance in the room space, in the cab itself and in the body of the guitar 'boost' elements of the sound to create a natural sustain. So when a sound created on Helix is monitored at low volume, on studio monitors or headphones it sounds different to when the same sound is monitored through a loud amp/cab (even if that amp is very 'flat' like an FRFR). What I find is that for example hi-gain lead sounds run out of gain the higher up the neck you play. If you play the same sound through a loud monitor/amp this problem does not occur due to the resonance between speaker and guitar - and often I find I have to reduce the distortion level in a sound like this for live use.

 

So my question is - what tricks do you use to compensate for this when creating sounds for monitoring at low volume or recording? 

 

(to be fair I think this is an 'effect' that all the modelling solutions fail to recreate effectively, and possibly where the Helix2 should such a thing ever appear would do well to include - but that's another story....)

[codamedia]

3 Options...

 

1: Do what the studio engineers have always done. Work really hard with the mic choice and placement in the cab block to capture the "amp in the room" sound to the best you can. Those recordings we love often sound like amps in the room.... that was achieved with creative use of mics & placement. 

 

2: Turn off all cab modeling in the Helix and plug into the effect return on an amp. Voila... amp in the room. 

 

3: Find a good "speaker simulation" IR. Before IR's existed people used speaker simulation hardware such as a Palmer PDI-03... but there were many others as well. Those don't have the MIC character added... they are simply EQ's that attempt to sound like a speaker/cab, without the mic. If you can find an IR package of those sounds.... you can load them up instead of a cab block. 

[thirdspace]

Thanks - all good stuff :) Just to clarify - what I am after is effect of an amp and guitar in the same space complimenting each other - that natural sustain, like a boost to the sound especially higher up the neck. I have tried many speaker sim/cab/mic combinations and IRs, and while good at recreating the sound as if you were recording it, do not 'boost' the signal in anything like the same way. That is, they mostly 'take away' from the sound recreating the technical frequency responses/EQ curves of various speakers and rooms. Probably just haven't found the right one yet - if you are aware of any that recreate the effect of an amp 'moving air' that would be great. I guess part of it is more of a perceived effect at the ear also due to the natural compression of the ear drum in response to higher volume levels.

[Schmalle]

If you hear an 'amp in the room' you hear the amp and it's reflections from the room. You can do that from many listening angles and distances.

 

Do you want a sound as if you were in front of a stack of 4x12s in a stadium or more of a combo amp pointing at you legs in a crowded pub?

 

Do you have a recording at hand that features the sound of what you call 'moving air'?

 

[DunedinDragon]

As you can tell from the above responses, since Day One of Helix there have always been ways to achieve the 'amp in the room' effect one gets when using the Helix.  The reason a lot of us don't really worry or care about that is that it never affects or is important to our audiences whether it's a live performance or a recorded performance.  We can get close enough with the tools in the Helix to not worry about it and gain the simplified benefits it brings in both performance and recording.  If it inspires your your performance then do it.  But there is no magic formula to reproduce it because the 'amp in the room' effect changes dramatically with the room, the position your amp is in and your position relative to the amp.  That's just physics.

[somebodyelse]

On 11/8/2024 at 12:18 PM, thirdspace said:

Thanks - all good stuff :) Just to clarify - what I am after is effect of an amp and guitar in the same space complimenting each other - that natural sustain, like a boost to the sound especially higher up the neck. I have tried many speaker sim/cab/mic combinations and IRs, and while good at recreating the sound as if you were recording it, do not 'boost' the signal in anything like the same way. That is, they mostly 'take away' from the sound recreating the technical frequency responses/EQ curves of various speakers and rooms. Probably just haven't found the right one yet - if you are aware of any that recreate the effect of an amp 'moving air' that would be great. I guess part of it is more of a perceived effect at the ear also due to the natural compression of the ear drum in response to higher volume levels.

The harsh truth is you'll never achieve it 100%.

The signal chain is not, nor can it ever be, exactly the same.

With your analogue gear, at it's most basic, your guitar goes in to the front of the pre-amp>power amp>speaker, and even if you use a separate cab, that speaker still has an influence on how the poweramp behaves.

With the Helix (and every other digital modeller), your guitar signal goes through an A/D converter, then all the magic happens, then through a D/A converter, to your (presumably) FRFR cab where it meets a Class D poweramp and on to the speaker.

The virtual amp in your Helix is separated from the speaker by a converter and a Class D amp. The real speaker cannot influence the virtual amp.

The only way to 'move air' is to move air. If you want to 'feel' like a you're playing a 4x12 stack going flat out, you're gonna need a 4x12 with the volume turned right up.

Digital modellers can't change the laws of physics (Cap'n), but they can make the same noises.

 

[datacommando]

On 11/8/2024 at 11:40 AM, thirdspace said:

Hi all - I'm guessing this question has been asked in different ways over the years but here goes...

Hi,

 

As you have probably realised this subject has been done to death in these forums, but for some real insight, here’s the definitive answer from the man behind Helix. Over to Digital_Igloo - Chief Product Design Architect at Yamaha Guitar Group.

 

https://blog.line6.com/2023/09/15/eric-klein-at-least-half-of-your-modelers-sound-is-determined-by-your-playback-system/

 

That should do it.

[thirdspace]

First of all - thanks very much for all the detailed and considerate responses - much appreciated. Secondly, I guess I'm still feeling like I haven't quite explained my request clearly enough (no surprise there!). So when I say 'amp in the room' what I mean is 'playing in the same room as the amp'. Something happens in this situation between speaker and guitar (and yes depending on many variables such as position, volume, the room etc etc) that changes the way the sound behaves, particularly high gain sounds, and with higher notes up the fretboard. Exactly the same issue arises when recording a real amp or speaker cab that is closed off in another room (if the guitar is in the control room and the amp/cab is in the live room for example).

Specifically what I am after is a way of simulating the boost to higher frequencies (notes of the upper strings and especially when higher up the fretboard) that occurs when the player is in the same space as their amp. With high gain sounds sustain is often much longer, a lower gain setting is required to create a usable lead tone particularly when playing legato and so on. With a modeller (or remote cab) I find myself picking and fretting much more aggressively to achieve the hoped for tone the higher up the neck I go. Which then catches you out if you happen to use the sound live in a higher volume situation. All of this is also way more noticeable with single coil pickups of course. Compensating in the modeller by turning up the gain helps, but leads to a 'fizzier' sound of course. I'm not aware that speaker simulation seeks to emulate this 'boost/resonance' but rather to tame higher frequencies to make it sound less digital - and this quite often has the opposite effect as in it reduces treble like a close mic'd speaker would.

I'm hoping a modeller would be able to recreate this idea at any volume, that is a playback system is not even required to create it. And I'm not after a faithful recreation if that doesn't exist, simply tips for compensating if anyone else has successfully addressed this.

 

If you feel I am simply repeating myself and missing the point (again!) then please accept my apologies and ignore, but just posting in case it catches anyone else's eye. Thanks :) 

[Schmalle]

On 11/21/2024 at 11:59 AM, thirdspace said:

[...] Specifically what I am after is a way of simulating the boost to higher frequencies (notes of the upper strings and especially when higher up the fretboard) that occurs when the player is in the same space as their amp. With high gain sounds sustain is often much longer, a lower gain setting is required to create a usable lead tone particularly when playing legato and so on. [...]

What you're describing is feedback. Speakers move air which moves the guitar body which excites the strings. Try the Feedbacker block for a simulation of that. Or play loud enough with your playback system.

 

Boosted upper frequencies can be obtained with amp models that use a bright cap on the drive pot. The 2203 is an example of that or e.g. the new Bogner XTC models when using the bright switch (B1: boosted mids and highs, B2: boosted highs). With these amps the ratio of high vs low frequency gain depends on the gain/drive knob.

 

Also overdrive pedals typically cut bass which means the following gain stages add less drive in the lower registers compared to the higher ones.

 

Lastly power amp saturation and power supply sag plays a part here because that can add compression and therefore sustain. Some people use post compression to add to that.

[thirdspace]

Thanks - that's a really helpful reply. I'm already digging the Bogner models - your description possibly explains why!

Much appreciated.