robbieb61

I've noticed some of that too. I think a lot of it is better amp quality and maintenance. Back in the "old days" these guys and their guitar techs were so wasted on the road...literally shooting heroin and drinking massive amounts of booze while playing to audiences. So when the tubes needed to be changed and the amp needed to be biased, it may not have been done. So they might have just cranked the gain up to compensate and get some "feel". But these days...the music industry is ALL touring. Tours used to be a way to promote your album. Now they ARE the product (which is why ticket prices are so high). Bands take it a lot more seriously these days. And the reality is that there are so many GREAT sounding amps that come right "out of the box". Back in the "old days", if you had that "special" Fender amp...you never took it on the road. It was studio use only. These days? You can get a myriad of amps "right off the shelf" that are the equivalent of what used to be "one of a kind" custom made amps back then. The result is that "yes", some of these bands are now able to go back and listen to their own stuff from 40 and 50 years ago and replicate the tone without losing any "ooomph" for the band. For instance, I saw the Eagles here in Vegas a couple of years back (before the death of Glen Frey)...and Joe Walsh had the MOST gorgeous "woody" tone I had ever heard from a live band. Just incredible. Also...keep in mind that the classic rock bands are a lot like me...getting old! LOL! So maybe they are getting "soft" with their gain. :lol:

Yep, a lot of those tones are pretty clean on albums. Don't sound too powerful "live" though. If you were to match up the tone on the record of "Honky Tonk Women" for instance and nailed it perfectly...it would sound REAL wimpy in a live band. That's why "Keef" plays live with a lot more gain in his tone. And "back in the day" (the late 1960's and the 1970's and 1980's) he played live with a pretty heavy guitar tone that was nothing like the mild guitar tones on the Stones albums. Listen to "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out" Or "Love You Live" and you get the idea. The best thing, in my opinion is to get a good, fat warm sound without too much bottom end on it for classic rock. My band covers a lot of 70's classic stuff including "Taking Care Of Business" by BTO and "Long Train Runnin" by The Doobie Brothers. For that rhythm sound I'm using the "Litigator" amp with the drive on "8" and the mids on "10" and running it through an Ownhammer Marshall cab IR. Then for my slightly heavier crunch sound for 80's style classic rock I use the Archenon lead model with the drive at around "5" (that model has lots of nice bottom for a nice heavy crunch)

I set my PA channel flat. No cut or boost. And when I used mic'ed up amps it was the same way throughout my career. People thinking that a soundman is making huge eq cuts are just wrong. There is a reason that some guitarists have a desirable tone and many don't. And it's not the soundman crafting a guitar tone. Lol You run a room analyzer for your PA and get it as flat as possible in every room. Then you stick a sm57 right up against the speaker in a 4x12 cab about halfway between center and edge and that's all you need to do. Some here can claim otherwise...but many of us have had years of touring and know better. With the Helix...we shouldn't have to make these cuts. But we do. And once you do, and get it right...it's awesome.

Put me in the category of "no reverb". I use my Helix onstage with a live band. And as Peter said in his post above... the room is "live" enough without any reverb to muddy up your tone in the mix. Especially playing rock music. We play classic rock in my band. And my goal is always to have a fat mid-rangey BIG sound that sits in the mix nice and loud without any harshness or muddiness. Reverb just ruins that.

My old G30 finally died on me after many years. It worked great and sounded great. So I went down and grabbed a G10 system. Still can't get over how freakin' low cost that a wireless system is these days! It was only about 10 years back that I paid almost $2,000 for a nice Shure guitar wireless system. And back in the 1980's I paid over $700 for the "top of the line" Nady systems. And they all sounded like Sh1t. But my G30 sounded so close to a cable that I can't tell the difference. The G10 system cost me $179 at Guitar Center. Unreal how cheap that is! And it is the best setup I've ever used. Completely wireless (no cord to a body pack anymore)...and the charging base/receiver is just perfect. I grabbed it Saturday afternoon and used it at gigs on Saturday and Sunday nights. Loved it! Great product and I highly recommend it.

My Helix fits into an Ibanez bass case that I have....BUT, the case won't close because the Helix is too "Tall". :( I have the back pack...but the thing is bursting at the seams from cables, extra pedals, etc. that I use at the gig. I can barely get it zipped. And I've never once used it like a "backpack" anyway. I always end up carrying it into the gig like a suitcase.

I did a lot of physical work on the guitar to get rid of any of those anomalies JTSC777. Got rid of the piece of garbage lock nut made of some kind of scrap metal and replaced it with a titanium locknut, Same with the string retainer bar. Put "noiseless springs" (rubber coated floyd springs) to get rid of the reverby aftertones that trem springs cause. And then I worked with the volumes on the individual strings, the entire preset of each one, etc, etc. But no matter what I did...the mags just blow the models away with no contest. As do all my other guitars. The JTV 89F holds up fairly well against my more expensive guitars when using the mags (a little "thinner" than the rest...but not enough to be a deal breaker), and it plays pretty darn good. But as I said earlier...the models just can't keep up with real pickups well enough for me to be able to use it on stage with my band. I mean I COULD use it...but it would never sound as good as the mag pickups do. :( I hate that. I had wanted one of these for years.

Quick update...I just got an external expression pedal. The wah is now working perfectly with the external expression pedal. So it looks like it IS something physically wrong with the Helix onboard pedal.

Yeah, I get the idea. Every modeler I ever had did the same thing starting in the 1990's with the Boss GT5. And yeah...all the presets always suck. lol And they are always packed on with tons of crazy effects. And I don't think any guitar player uses the same effects. So it's kinda weird that they would even bother with making those kinds of factory presets. For me it didn't showcase any effects at all. When I first got my Helix I wanted to hear a good tone. The second I hear the amp buried in reverb or delay I just moved on searching for a more "dry" preset. I think they'd be better off maybe having a factory preset set list of nothing but amp cab combinations with "starting point" EQ cuts made to get rid of fizz and harshness. They could still have another preset list of all the crappy factory presets that all these companies seem compelled to include. lol But if they are going to pay guys to create factory presets...seems like they might as well pay them to make amp/cab presets that sound real close to the real amp. I think when a person buys a Helix and first turn it on, that would be a much more pleasant experience. And THEN if they want to they can jump over to the effects-laden "creations" lol

Don't be surprised if you change your preference over time too. I play classic rock. And at first I was using the Treadplate Boogie amp model. (this was back in Oct. of 2015 and there were only a few models in that first couple of months). It was the "BEST"! And then they came out with the modded 2204 Marshall and I proclaimed that one to be the new "holy grail" (I don't use any overdrive pedals, just amp distortion). And THEN they came out with Mesa Mk. 5 And it was an infinitesimal bit closer to the sound in my head so I shouted to the sky that this was THE one. And THEN they recently came out with the model of the PRS Archon. I had never even HEARD of that amp before...but I tried it out. And now? It is THE GREATEST OF ALL TIME for me. lol For my tone, all of the above amps sound tremendous. And I'm sure that more are coming in the future and I will be touting a different one as the "best". :)

That's kind of what I did at first too. Now I just start with a blank preset and go from there. I was sort of thinking of a person who just opened the box and plugged the Helix in. If they are like me...they DON'T read any instructions (lol) and just want to hear the thing. And the first thing they will hear are those presets. And I'm guessing like all of us...it is very disappointing to hear those things and would be 100 times better to simply have amps and cabs presets set up to go. Presets that simply said: Vox, Fender, Marshall, etc. would definitely make those first few minutes of ownership a much less scary proposition. lol

That would be exactly what they should do. Nobody uses the same effects. So all of those presets that are just overdone with effects are useless. BUT...presets of the amp models themselves with different cabs and such all set up to go (like a real amp would be in the music store) would be nice. I'm thinking that most guitar players are like me...I want to hear the amps. And then add in my own effects. Right now to hear the amps you just have to create a new preset and start plugging in amps and cabs...but the first thing a person does when they first turn on the Helix is plug into it to play. And if it were a selection of amp and cab presets already set up...that would sound a LOT better than those effect laden monstrosity presets (okay, I'm being over-dramatic in that description...lol)

Hmmm....I didn't take into account the extravagant, decadent lifestyle that we all live...you have a point there. :)

HonestOpinion...Helix is already there for playing through a traditional guitar cab....you simply don't use a cab model. :) The real guitar cab would be covering that...and it sounds great when I use mine my DT50 combo amp or 4x12 with the DT50 (real tubes and real speakers make the amp models really sing) I don't use any EQ block when I do that...just use the amp model's tone controls like you would in real lif and shove a real mic in front of it. But of course that means you still have to carry a couple of hundred pounds of gear AND deal with loud stage volume. :( So, I moved over to a Bose L1 Compact and FRFR. Thus my whining about the cabs having to have high cuts made on them.

I think you may be right about that. I ended up in an argument about the frequencies above 5K but you could definitely have amp settings with all the high end cranked with no mids and put the microphone right on the cone and get all kind of nasty harshness. My observation is...I don't do that. I like a lot of mids and a big warm fat sound. Never been a "scooped" guy with my amp tone controls. So I'm not running my amp setting on Helix with the highs cranked too much. So I would expect the cab would react like an actual 4x12 would with those same settings applied. And the 3rd party Marshall cab IR's I bought seem to come close to that. I still had to do some high cuts though. Not much, just a tiny bit.

Because they do have those frequency's....but if you look at the graph you linked to in one of the post's above to the frequency range of a Marshall cab...those high frequencies drop off fast after 5K and are down in the NEGATIVE 50 db range. You won't HEAR them on a real guitar cab like you do with the Helix. Look brother...if you want to believe that the Helix is faithfully reproducing a guitar speaker sound with the stock cabs...go ahead and believe it. If you want to think I'm wrong, that's cool too. I am not going to change my opinion that it would have been immensely better to have cabs that actually sound like the guitar cabs they are emulating. Bottom line is I love my Helix. Just don't think it should be necessary to make a ton of high cuts to it. If the high frequencies that you are talking about were actually at the same level as the very Marshall cab you linked to: http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/frequency-response-of-a-marshall-4x12-cabinet We would NOT HEAR THEM. No way you are HEARING those frequencies blasting you with harshness when the mids of the cab are close to 0 DB and the 10K is at -50 DB and below. Think about it a second. We are getting all passionate about something that is just stupid.

Of course moving a microphone around in different areas of the speaker will give you a different tone in the real world. Closer to the center, the brighter the sound. I'm just saying that maybe it would have been better had Line 6 did a better job modeling the LIMITATIONS of a guitar speaker cab. No 4x12 cab in the world would be able to have those really high frequencies like that. As I linked to celestions own specs...A Greenback Celestion 12 inch speaker has a 75 to 5K response. Period. And it has a lot of boost in the mid range. Which is what makes a celestion loaded cab SOUND like a celestion loaded cab. Which is why so many of us have turned to 3rd party IR cabs. Again...I'm not attacking the Helix. I am able to get what I want and I think it sounds fantastic. I'm just debating all this talk that some have on here that this is the way real amps and cabs sound mic'ed up...NO, it's not. I think my experience onstage, in major studios, and in home digital studios qualifies me as well as anyone to say that Line 6 could have made this beast sound a lot better and true-er if they had nailed down the modeling of the cabinets and gotten the frequency responses of these cabs to be correct. I don't want to anger anyone, I'm not even sure why that statement would anger them...lol. It just takes a lot of high frequency eq cuts to get it to sound right. And I can't help but feel that it is causing me to lose some harmonics and overtones and sustain that might be the tiny icing on the cake to achieve my own "holy grail" in the never-ending search for the "best" tone.

I know and I'm not wanting to be argumentative. :) But it is IMPOSSIBLE for a guitar speaker to create those frequencies at any real volume. And a microphone can only pick up what is there in the first place. That's just physics. I guess it doesn't matter what anyone believes (me or you or anyone else)...it is what it is. And The Helix is a great sounding unit.

And again...I just told you guys I close mic'ed all my different rigs over the years. Doesn't matter where the Mic is...if the guitar speaker doesn't produce that frequency spectrum, then it can't be there. And yes I am using FRFR Bose system. It doesn't have horns or tweeters but full range small speakers. But when I used traditional rigs they were all mic'ed with an SM57 and going to front of house and a monitor mixer as well. And of course our PA had horns lol...and so did out monitor system. No "fizz" was there. If there ever had been... I would have been looking to replace the soundman lol My rig always sounded the same coming out of my cab, the monitor, and the PA. Why would anyone tolerate anything less? Granted I am referring to good sounding rooms as well. Of course I played some huge rooms that were so reflective of the sound that the whole mix would be a mess.. but I am speaking in general terms. A tube amp into a 4x12 cab does not have those frequencies. And any of you who played in a live band KNOW that your amp is ALWAYS mic'ed up close to avoid it feeding back in the PA with low end rumble. It's only in the studio that guitar amps are using a mixture of close mic'ing and room mics for ambience And that kind of negates these theories that some are espousing about close mic'ing. Mic'ing an amp in the studio is very rarely putting a Mic up close to the speaker. But even if it were.. you can't get a microphone to record a frequency that isn't there to begin with.

That chart looks like that...but you are dead wrong about where the dropoff starts. http://celestion.com/product/16/g12m_greenback/ Look at the specs brother: Frequency range75-5000Hz And if you've played a long time professionally...then you already know this. Plus the comment about guitar players not knowing about the signal chain...nonsense. I, and every professional I knew on the circuit all had nice guitar rigs with effects. My own rig in the 1980's was a Mesa Boogie studio preamp that drove a rack full of effects and then went out in a "wet/dry" configuration through a Mesa SimulClass 295 stereo tube power amp to 2 4x12 cabs (one wet, one dry) and those were individually mic'ed and sent to both Front of House AND the sidestage monitor mixer and my tone was identical in the house, monitors and coming out of my rig. My last traditional guitar rig was a Bogner Ecstasy head with a G-System going into a Bogner 4x12 Greenback cab in mono. Again...my front of house and my monitor mix were identical to my sound coming out of my rig. And now I'm a Helix guy. And I'm getting great sound with it too. I love this thing! But yeah...having to cut all those frequencies seems like something we shouldn't have to do IF the cabs are modeled correctly. Having said that...I'm using 3rd party IR's for my cabs because they don't require as much high frequency cutting and seem to have more of a "woody" "thump" like a real 4x12 cab does without being muddy. Just seems to me that the "magic" of a tube amp in a 4x12 cab IS the limitations of frequency that make the mids so predominant and "Sweet" sounding. I would think that the best way would be to replicate that. I just can't believe that Line 6 deliberately made everything sound so harsh and fizzy on purpose. Just seems counter-productive. And I doubt any of us here would ever go into a music store and audition a real amp and 4x12 and buy the thing if it sounded like that right at the get-go. I know I never did. Every amp I ever owned sounded great with a few turns of the knob as a starting point. Again...not saying the Helix isn't great. I'm using it! :) Just saying that I feel like cutting frequencies is robbing me of certain harmonics and overtones that could create a more desirable tone in the end.

Oh there are plenty of guitarist with harsh nasty tones...but they are all caused by them scooping the tone controls with no mids. Sound like mosquitoes to me. lol But those harsh nasty tones are all mid-high to highs...not super high frequencies that a celestion can't even create in the first place.

There is physically no way for a guitar amp mic'ed up in the studio to have all those super high frequencies. A 12 inch celestion simply does not produce them no matter where you place the microphone. Guitar cabinets are designed for creating specific frequencies that are pleasing to the ear. The whole concept of the Helix is to recreate that. I have played professionally in rock bands since 1978. My amp was always mic'ed up through a nice PA I've done a lot of recording in professional studios (first time in 1979 on 2 inch 16 track) and in my own digital home studio. No matter what or where I played...no guitar cab mic'ed up ever magically produced high frequencies that the speaker cab can not physically create. I think that is what I question about this subject. If you are going to model an amp, speaker, and microphone...then it needs to sound like the real thing. My amp always sounded the same in the PA or studio as it did coming out of my cabinet If it didn't...that would just be stupid and negate the whole reason for having a great sounding amp in the first place.

Still can't figure out why Line 6 would have the Helix sound so harsh. I've read all the experts talk about how all amps have fizz in the high end etc. But yet....none of my amps ever SOUNDED that way to me. Mic'ed, recorded, in the room...none of them sounded like that. So why not just have Helix sound GOOD. And yes, I've heard the argument about giving us all the tone of the amp including the high end fizz...But does ANYBODY like the high end harshness? Or does EVERYBODY end up dialing that crap down (and maybe losing harmonics and overtones in the process). Call me crazy...but it seems like life would have been a lot simpler if the Helix amps simply did NOT have the high end fizzy garbage in the first place. There's plenty of room to play with the highs and the presence controls on the amp for those players who love a lot of high end in their sound. Having said all of that...yes, I have achieved a tone that I love with my Helix. But it shouldn't have taken all that work to get there. It should have been a lot more like a real high end amp and sounded good right at the get go. Tweaking a good sounding amp to sound GREAT is a pleasure. Having to spend hours over a period of time to do all kind of frequency cuts to get a crappy sound to sound great....not so much fun. And I'm sure that all of us would rather have spent that time playing instead of figuring out how to get rid of frequencies that shouldn't be there in the first place.

I'd plug your cellphone audio into your speaker and play some music off YouTube or something to make sure the high end tweeter is working. If prerecorded music sounds muffled, then you know it's the speaker

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