BBD_123

Round? Unusual. But still too much information :-) Let's just think 'sea urchin' and count to ten... :-0

+1

+1 Marvio, I don't know my way around the genre, so you will have to hold my hand, so to speak :-)

Perhaps the OP might be happier with an amp that is more naturally voiced closer to what he seems to want. Rather than putting the Valve Driver in front of a jumped Plexi, why not try the JCM 800 on its own, and experiment with the preamp gain and tone stack? One that was made a fair way upthread... :-) Sometimes, less is more. A JCM 800 somewhat cranked with the input pad on might get you into the ballpark... EDIT: I should have also said that putting a Parametric EQ block at the end of the signal chain with Low Cut at ~100Hz and High Cut at ~12kHz gets rid of bass flub and trims off unwanted top-end hair.

I've become somewhat more aware of the great importance of getting the input gain right with Helix. With the guitar input pad off, some pickups are a wee bit too much imho, and you can get an unpleasant fizz in more overdriven tones. I've started to switch the guitar pad on and place a gain block right at the start of the signal chain. If - and only if - the guitar needs a boost, I increase gain carefully until it gets where it needs to be. This is always lower than the +5dB boost roughly equivalent to having the guitar pad off. Both amp drive and pedal drive sound better to my ears using this approach. It's *so* easy to end up with too much gain in the signal chain and it messes up your tones.

The JC 120 is solid state, so overdriving it with hot pickups, no pad *and* the Kinky Boost is unlikely to produce good results :-) It's just not how the amp is designed to be used... From what you say, you might be better with the bright slider all the way up on the JC 120 model (equivalent to the bright switch 'on' on the original). That will get you plenty of clean bite, but it will sound unpleasant if the amp is being pushed too hard from the front.

I would think anywhere between 2.5 and about 5. It's a pretty loud amp IRL.

Just what you say you did - run through the Helix Jazz Chorus 120 model and listen out for artifacts arising from pushing the front of the model too hard - slight fartiness in the low strings and scratchiness in the high strings. I'm amazed you can get EMGs to sound good through the JC 120 with the pad off. For a good, crystal-clean tone, even with low-wind PAFs, I prefer the pad on for best results. With a bridge JB, I *need* the pad on or it sounds crappy. All you need to do is increase the gain at the end of the chain, either with a gain block or by tweaking the output gain parameter. That way, you get (imho) much cleaner cleans, but no loss of gain with the pad on. What you take away at the beginning of the chain, you add back in at the end. I'm getting an impression that the high gain fraternity are less sensitive to input gain issues than the rest of us :-)

Have you tried the JC 120 test?

Thank you for the link, V-B. Following on from that and other threads here and at TGP I get the impression - subjectively supported by my ears - that a modest cut in input gain does result in better humbucker tones, even with low output HBs. The canary in the coal mine for problematic input gain seems to be the JC 120. It's surprising how many pickups sound bad with the pad off. Assuming that there's nothing unusual about the JC 120 model in Helix, this suggests that with the pad off, many pickups are hitting the front of the amp - any amp - hard enough to make a bit of mess that shouldn't be there. Of course this would affect all tones, all the way up to cranked, and a number of commenters think that it does (including me). So although it's an old chestnut (sorry), maybe worth a revisit. If curious, I'd suggest to anyone wanting to check - try a few guitars through the default Jazz Rivet block with the pad off and on, dig in a bit with the playing, and see what you think.

That's interesting. So not just me then who feels that some fine tuning of input gain is worth the effort. Tonight I'll experiment with the gain block approach vs the pad. It's logical and more flexible, so if *all* the pad does is a ~5dB gain cut - no special tonal sauce - then the gain block is the way to go, I suppose.

That's where it shows up clearest, sure, in the clean tones, but (YMMV) I think I hear 'better' preamp distortion in several models with the pad on playing humbuckers. I do have an EVH pickup - the Frankenstein - which isn't as hot as the Wolfgangs but it does still benefit from the pad being on. For example, the tapped passage in Eruption has a more liquid or bell-like quality to it with the pad on, more like the original.

Thanks for your thoughts... After over a year of leaving the pad off, I finally decided that actually, the hbs *do* sound better with it on - including low-wind PAF clones - and single coils sound fine so long as there's that ~5dB boost at the beginning of the chain. This gets around the fact that you cannot currently assign the pad state to individual patches. I was quite surprised at the improvement - subtle but definitely there - with the pad on. I don't really do high-gain tonez, so we're talking Bassman, Deluxe and Plexis clean, crunchy and cranked. Of course YMMV, but I was and am interested to see the spread of opinion about this.

Okay, one vote for off, with the hottest hb the BB Pro (I think, as not played the Filter'Trons).

Guitar input pad on or off? It's a big decision imho, which I fudge by turning the pad on but putting a +5.5dB gain block front of chain for single coil tones. The hottest humbucker I use is a JB bridge (not right up against the strings :-) ) and it's too hot for pad off. A bit scratchy and farty with the JC 120 even with gain right down to 1.0. Very interested in what you all do with the pad, and why you went for on or off. Please, share your thoughts :-)

What Verne-Bunsen said. I too use the 80 ohm BD 770s (with Helix floor) and there should be plenty of volume available - too much for most ears.

Indeed they are, although the cable is a hell of a lot more robust than the Sennheiser. I have yet to destroy one, and I am good a destroying headphone cables. You can run the casters of an office chair over the BD cable and it laughs at the pain.

By coincidence, I tried the HD650s out before Christmas - only for an hour or so - but I would agree with you. Being open backed, they are indeed a bit less ear-tiring for guitar work, and they are very comfortable. They do suffer from the rather flimsy Sennheiser cable problem - I got through several of those over the years as the cable to jack join does not withstand sudden jerks - but I think sonically, they are the winner.

A *very nice* VH1 patch, DarthHollis. Thank you for sharing it :-) I think what you did there is a great showcase for how good Helix really is. A simple chain, replicating what most people agree is probably what he did, and - there's the tone. Bang. No trickery, no frills. And it's good to see someone else not diming the amp because 'that's what Eddie did'... Patches dialled in by ear are better than those dialled in by hearsay :-) (Nerd-note: for Eruption, guitar sits centre-ish in the stereo mix, not hard over.)

Not a high gain amp guy myself, but +1 to the above exchange.

After all this and you stir the pot again? ;-) :-)

Well, that isn't me, but then again, when I was a kid I couldn't afford a $1500 piece of kit and would have laughed at anyone who could who also thought they were a bit rock'n'roll ;-)

Makes sense to me.

Thanks for that Brue58ski. Triffic effort and much appreciated.

Ah well, at least they care. Silence would be worse :-)