Paulzx

Agree with your conclusion, you do just have to work around it, and accept you can't totally reproduce some stuff like that, I had actually said that before anyway. To be totally fair, if I get closer to the monitor speakers and listen a bit more carefully, I can hear that the basic tone through the speaker is more like the thing I'm chasing, but by the time you've stepped back into a more suitable listening distance from the speakers, it's not as obvious, so maybe those HS5's are just too small to really project that detail in the sound. Unless you have an endless supply of speakers to compare against, it's hard to know what the differences would be to comment on that. I'll know next week, at least compared to the HS7 as I'm swapping over to those specifically to test this

Makes sense of course, just a bit frustrating that you can hear it using one method which you like but can't really replicate it the other way. I can get high gain tones no problem on the speakers, it's just a different type of high gain, not quite as good

Head phones were the same as the earbuds, it's just using that headphone method of listening as opposed to using speakers. Maybe the headphone sound is the genuine sound and the speakers are just generating a completely different sound that just will never be the same

Okay so I tried this and I know what you mean, it creates a somewhat sharper tone, quite phasey, almost unrealistic sounding but interesting. It doesn't really sound like what I was referring to originally but it an interesting tip and I will experiment with it

This is where I disagree with you. I don't think any tweaking will replicate that sound. It's not an EQ thing, it's more like a completely different device is creating the distortion. Try it and you'll see what I mean

Okay I'll try this for sure. I don't have any cab blocks just the amp and an IR. You're saying I'll get this from just turning the mix level down on the IR? I'll be shocked if this works haha, but I can't wait to try just in case you've got a gem of a tip here.

This thread wasn't about comparing other devices or about bashing the Helix, I simp,y wanted to find a way to get that headphone distortion through my speakers because the high gain was so much better. Its frustrating that you can hear something you really like when practicing with headphones, and that is the sound the Helix is producing, yet you get something quite a bit different through real speakers, and although the guitar sound varies from speaker to speaker or any output device, none of it sounds like that direct headphone sound

I shudder when I see any mention of Alto speakers with a helix. Have you used those 312's previously with good results? The reason I mention it is because I struggled with some Alto TS212's for ages, they actually killed the Helix tone because they are way too muddy and boomy on the bottom end - just in case yours are the same? I switched to Yamaha HS5 now upgrading to HS7's as a relatively low cost home speaker option, but the difference is remarkable, so much clearer and better defined, I am using them in a small room though but I expect you could still crank them if needed.

Uhm seriously, you should possibly look at all the conflicting information in these forums! Thanks for the run down, and yes I know all that, I know what a master volume does on a real amp, but I've seen info on here where people have said no, leave the master down and put the channel all the way up - no put the channel down and crank the master... no, leave them as default and switch the helix volume to digital! In the end you just do what sounds better, theoretically correct or otherwise

Are you questioning my ability to dial in a patch.. I'm shocked and offended, where's my safe space lol. No worries mate, thanks for all the suggestions, I know it's not an easy one to crack and I know I can't solve it. It is definitely a head phone thing because both times I tried it, once with real head phones and once with ear buds, although the sound varies a bit in richness, the distortion is the same so it doesn't really matter what you wear on your ears it's just completely different from the speaker distortion. The speaker sound is better overall - I'm just zeroing in on that type of distortion I hear on the headphones that I've never had through speakers, using same patch etc, just different method of listening. If there was an effect clock you could add to do this I would be very happy but there isn't! I might try and record an example, but I don't have any software to do that. What would be the best thing to use to try and capture the direct signal without it going through the monitor speakers?

Too late, I blew everything up last trying that, I hope you're happy Now?! Just kidding, thanks for the suggestion anyway

Thanks for the suggestions mate, I'll certainly try that although I think I just have to accept it's not the sort of thing you can replicate by altering anything in the signal chain, it's just a totally different saturated type of sound. It's a bit like your high gain tone through speakers would be a 7 out of 10 whereas the headphone sound is more like a 15 out of 10! and you can't match it by upping your gain in the preset on speakers because it just gets noisy and messy. There's just a fundamental difference between the two modes, unfortunately for me. However, on a happier side note, one tip that has worked well is to turn up the master volume to max in the high gain amp, turn volume down a bit on helix big volume knob. It hasn't cured the discussion above, but it has produced a better high gain patch in that I can actually dial back the gain a little bit so it's smoother sounding, but still very overdriven with that master cranked. I was actually able to duplicate a live Def Leppard sound using that method, which I've been chasing for a while, so I'm quite happy with that outcome even if it was by accident!

To the best of my knowledge it is healthy yes Haven't tried XLR, consensus on here was there should be no difference in sound quality so I went for the 1/4 " as I had the cables. Haven't tried headphone out to the speakers, can you do that? I would certainly be curious to try. I want to emphasise that I'm not saying that Helix to the speakers is terrible, just that the headphone sound was noticeably better on the distortion bite that's all. It's just that one characteristic in the sound that's all

Appreciate the comments but somehow, this thread has gone sideways. I was never trying to dial in patches to transfer from device to device. My original point wasn't that I was unhappy with my patches. I've been dialling in patches for a long time and I've tried every trick so I think I'm getting the best result possible there. It was only when I tried using ear phones direct to the Helix for a test that I realised the distortion in my high gain amps sounded massively different when you listen direct. No amount of tweaking for speakers is going to resolve that. I think I just have to accept it can't be reproduced exactly the same through speakers, so great if you practice a lot with headphones but a bit underwhelming when using monitors or speakers

Great stuff on the track!

I don't intend to use headphones at all really, it was just an experiment

All good points, but I know all of this lol.. Maybe you're right about the demo preset's but it's not really the point, it was just a side observation, either way, I can't get anything like the earphone sound to replicate through speakers. What you've said above learning how to create tones etc - I already do that, it's only relevant to creating tones to use through your own speakers. No matter how good you are at dialling in tones, you are not going to be reproducing the same high gain as what you hear through the headphone jack. They are two totally separate sounds. Somehow - the Helix can produce a direct distortion tone that sounds superb until you put it through 1/4 inch cables into speakers. That's what I do know for a fact. I will state again - I'm not saying it's crap through the speakers, I'm saying it's totally different and it's lacking quite a lot of the gain that it has through headphones. Try it yourself. I think people are misunderstanding what I'm trying to get across. I'm not commenting on whether headphone listening is good or bad or FRFR speakers are good or bad, I just want to be able to re-create the high gain distortion I hear on the headphones. It's a lot different from the sound through the speakers using the same patch.

Thanks for the comments mate... Youtube demos - I don't know if those tones all sounds as good through live speakers but it's a very common complaint that you buy a preset and it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as the demo and I think that is because it's been recorded direct. The Alto's - did all that, still sounded like mush. End of the day, nice speakers for music or disco PA, horrible for guitar. You just don't realise until you try the monitor speakers. Yamaha's - yep I'm going to swap to the HS7's as I also felt the 5's were just lacking a bit in the overall size of the sound. I'm not blaming the Helix - what I said was, the unit itself is making epic distortion high gain, when you listen direct. I don't know why that isn't reproduced using speakers, that's what I want to know. Totally understand what dunedin dragon says about the only thing changing is the output device, and I fully agree - but how do you solve that?

I'm doing more or less exactly what you're doing with the monitor speakers, positioning etc. The Alto's are gone, now using HS5's - pretty good, but I'm sending them back to swap for a pair of HS7's, I already have the stands for them. That's not it. That's not what I'm talking about. Just by going to the HS5's, I've been surprised how much better you can get the output to sound, and if you go the Elis.8 route you'll probably get even better, but that is a separate topic and not to be confused with what I'm trying to explain. Obviously speaker to speaker, you can improve your overall sound, what you can't really do though is get completely different distortion using the same patches. Best way I can describe it is my current high gain patches all sound 'not bad' through my yamaha monitor speakers. There is still some character about it that I don't particularly like, but it's okay, it just doesn't wow me but it's usable. Regardless of how you increase the gain in the patch, it always sounds a bit like the guitar is slightly under powered. Use the same patch, same guitar but now listen on headphones/earphones whatever, and it sounds like the guitar is now on steroids and you've got gain going through the roof, it really is a night and day difference. Try it - dial in a high gain with a screamer pedal in front even a 0 gain - listen direct then see how much weaker it sounds through the speakers. I get all the stuff about factors that change the output sound but it doesn't change the fundamental level of distortion you're getting, not by enough to make this difference anyway. I realise this isn't the Helix itself and that was my original question - the unit direct sounds fantastic. I just need to find a way of getting that high gain out the other end!

Absolutely - ear phones are not what you would normally use, but it's what I had to hand at the time - but that's not really the point, I experienced the same thing years ago when I did have head phones. Yes you'll get different quality on better headphones but the point is, the sound is completely different. The Helix as a unit is producing high gain distortion to die for - when you listen with headphones, earphones whatever - but when you listen direct to the unit itself. That type of sound does not seem to be transferable when using external speakers - that I have found so far, not even close. I am wondering now whether the only way to capture that, is to actually play the thing through some kind of direct connection via some pc software?

I'm not even using proper headphones as such, I'm using earphones - because I don't use the Helix in the headphone mode, no need for me to buy decent headphones, but I did this as an experiment really. I remembered when I first got my Helix and I didn't have any real output speakers at the time. I did have proper headphones though so I started using it that way and remember the high gain stuff sounded fantastic. When I got around to getting some FRFR speakers, I was completely underwhelmed because the character of the distortion was completely different. I've been chasing that type of distortion ever since and not really achieved it. I tried the ear phones last night and again, distortion high gain from the unit itself without speakers is night and day different, so much better. I have discovered for myself how much better the sound can get when you change speakers - I went from some dreadful muddy bassy Alto TS212 speakers to the other extreme of Yamaha HS5 monitor speakers and that is a much crisper sound for sure - but it's nothing like the ear phone sound. Honestly, if you're a rock or metal player, listen to the high gain with headphones - it's so tight and aggressive that if anything, you would probably dial it back a bit, but it's exactly what most high gain players are looking for, which is the opposite to what you get through speakers. What I can't get my head around is that surely what you hear on the headphones direct from the unit itself, is the true tone/distortion that the unit is making? Where it goes wrong (for me) is when it goes through external speakers, so why can't we get the Helix to make the exact same sound, or near to, with speakers - any speakers? On a side note but relevant to this - all the countless tone demo videos/artist patches you can buy, that sound so epic on youtube - that sound nothing like that when you run them through your own speakers - now I know why. Those patches were not recorded through speakers were they, they're recorded direct from the Helix through a PC, so more akin to what you get through headphones etc.

Oh yeah, I realise you tone will change from output device to output device, but what I'm talking about is not really just a change of tone, it's a fundamental difference in how the high gain distortion is produced. It's a completely different sound and EQ'ing it doesn't really get you there

Yep, using two monitor speakers at moment. My patches are all amp and separate IR, it's still not the same though

So I tried some headphones on my helix floor for the first time in a few years just out of interest and instantly noticed that my high gain patches all sounded a hell of a lot better in the actual characteristic of the distortion/breakup/dynamics. In fact, its what I've been trying to achieve using FRFR speakers but not really got close. The headphone distortion is really aggressive, very tight bottom end, no woof, no mud just razor like bite in the high gain. I don't think I can reproduce that using real speakers, it's too different a sound. Why is this the case that the Helix can produce this tone via the headphones but not to real speakers as such?

Just out of interest which yamaha monitor speakers are you using? I got some hs5's for a small guitar room but now thinking of returning them for hs7's just to try and get a fuller sound. I don't know if there's much difference. I know the 7's have better bass response, not that I'm trying to add bass particularly, just get a fuller sound