roscoe5 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I thought I would start up this thread here on the Helix forum as I have seen a lot of rig discussion on FRFR or 4cm / tube amps, but nothing on using a solid state amp with a regular guitar cab. This seems to have been a popular option in the Fractal groups with amps like Matrix GT series, as well as various traditional power amps. There are many Kemper pics and demos with traditional cabs. New demos for BIAS Head (with SS power setion) are with a Marshall 412. One of the intended uses of my Crate Powerblock with modellers and traditional guitar cabs. I just hooked it up to my Mesa 212 with Helix amp models only (cabs off) and it sounds great! I can really hear the nuances of the Helix amps with the SS amp, even through the V30 cab. I would think Helix amp models to SS amp / guitar cab on stage, then split the signal to XLR/ FOH with a similar cab block or IR to their stage cab would be great for many people. Or just mic the cab traditionally. This seems like the perfect middle ground between FRFR and 4cm tube amp, and very simple to set up. You get a clear, uncolored signal of the amp model as it was designed into a real guitar cab. It's like having 50 heads on the same cab. Is anyone else doing this? Helix 1/4" out into the effects return of the Mesa Walkabout amp sounds great too. A little bigger amp, but not digital power. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtrmike Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 If you do gig with this rig tonight please make sure to update on how it went. It seems like a very good idea. I haven't thought about it but I think I'll break out my old Marshall 50/50 power amp and plug it into a couple Marshall and/or Fender cabs and see what it sounds like. The power amp shouldn't add any tone fluctuations at all as it's just a pure solid state stereo amp. The cabinet choices is where I think I'll hear the difference. I really do appreciate the portability of my FRFR powered speakers tho. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpointmetal Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Thats how I was running modelers for years. Crate PowerBlock in stereo to a stereo 4x12. Sounded great, lots of people wanted to know how I got that "crappy little amp" to sound so good. I love my Powerblock! It's been used as a PA amplifier for a cookout with some small 10" PA speakers, a bass amp in mono to a 1x15 cab, and it's never even blinked. This type of rig is an EXCELLENT option for someone who wants the flexibility of modeling but can't gel with the idea of not having a traditional cab on stage. Not sure what you mean by the "FRFR of the amp model" though. A speaker can be FRFR, but there is nothing about the sound coming out of the Helix that is either full-range or flat-response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 I only meant the flatness and range of the SS power amp. It's probably an improper use of the term. I'll edit so as not to cause confusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidb7170 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I used a Crate Power Block for many years, but found it has digital artefacts that were accentuated by speakers with tweeters (approaching FRFR). I tried multiple different speakers with it, and found it plays well with the Eminence Tonker that rolls off sharply above 5 kHz. My acoustic guitar and acoustic models of my Variax 300, then JTV's didn't sound too good. When I switched to a Crown XL1000 power amp, I picked swapped the speaker to an Eminence full range speaker, and it was better with no artifacts. I switched to a pair of Yorkville NM35 PA speakers from our sound guy who was getting some other Yorkville powered speakers, and it was better, but had to mess with eq to lessen the vocal midrange peak. My HD500X finally got global eq, and I could do ot across the board. The Helix had that, but could assign to only my stage amp. Now, I'm using a Quilter ToneBlock 200 to my Yorkville on a speaker stand - happy as can be... Point is, had to find what works for you. So far 10 years in from XTLive to X3Live to HD500 to HD500X to Helix. Combo amp to Crate to Crown to Quilter. It's been a journey... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 Man, the Crate PowerBlock and Mesa 212 was just too easy tonight. Low stress setup, consistent all night, nice contrasts between amps. I enjoyed it. The band liked it, but I get eye rolls with my rig experements (like I probably do here ;)) Honestly they would only have said something if it sounded like poo. Got a few "you guys rock" comments, nothing guitar specific though. I dunno guys, maybe I should quit chasing the FRFR unicorn. I don't feel the drive to have a bunch of different cabs. Friedman 2x12 IR'S to FOH and Mesa 212 on stage was good times. Never felt like I wasn't playing killer tube amps. Thanks Line 6!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 I used a Crate Power Block for many years, but found it has digital artefacts that were accentuated by speakers with tweeters (approaching FRFR). I tried multiple different speakers with it, and found it plays well with the Eminence Tonker that rolls off sharply above 5 kHz. My acoustic guitar and acoustic models of my Variax 300, then JTV's didn't sound too good. When I switched to a Crown XL1000 power amp, I picked swapped the speaker to an Eminence full range speaker, and it was better with no artifacts. I switched to a pair of Yorkville NM35 PA speakers from our sound guy who was getting some other Yorkville powered speakers, and it was better, but had to mess with eq to lessen the vocal midrange peak. My HD500X finally got global eq, and I could do ot across the board. The Helix had that, but could assign to only my stage amp. Now, I'm using a Quilter ToneBlock 200 to my Yorkville on a speaker stand - happy as can be... Point is, had to find what works for you. So far 10 years in from XTLive to X3Live to HD500 to HD500X to Helix. Combo amp to Crate to Crown to Quilter. It's been a journey... Dave I think I heard the same digital artifacts running the CPB through my Crate PA speakers with horns. I interpreted it as distortion since the CPB THD is 10%. Didn't hear any issues through my Mesa 212 tonight though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidb7170 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Yeah, the digital artifacts with the CPB are due to the amp not filtering them out. It's a Class D amp, just like my Crown and Quilter, but they have better filtering and have no artifacts at all. I wanted to go FRFR for the acoustics, and it stuck out like a sore thumb. For electric guitar and electric guitar speakers that roll of above 5 kHz, it's not too noticeable, especially with the rest of the band going. I have 2 CPB's that I used with 2 Tonkers when I needed more volume. I ran them bridged mono each for 150 watts apiece - the Tonker can handle that. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrellM5 Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 I tried this with a SS Randall RH100 amp and ended up with good results. I also ran it into a Mesa 2x12 and could easily gig with it. It really sounded good into a Randall 4x12 loaded with Celestion Seventy 80's. They're very inexpensive speakers but work really well with SS amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spikey Posted July 23, 2016 Share Posted July 23, 2016 Currently using an SLA-2 with a 1960a cab and getting great results with Kemper (and Helix). The best advice is and always will be, use what sounds good to you, and don't worry about what it is or might look like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted July 23, 2016 Author Share Posted July 23, 2016 Good points about different speakers with SS amps and sound first, appearance second.I liked the 3sigma Mesa Road King before Studiocat's Friedman 212 masterpiece. The RK cab has a mix of C90 and V30 speakers to give Mesa's real tube "modeller" more versatility. I have a C90 speaker I could swap with one V30 to make that Mesa 212 more versatile.And honestly, my acoustic sim patch (no cab IR) sounded just fine through the V30 cab for monitoring purposes. I knew it sounded as intended through the FOH speakers, so the darker acoustic sound through my stage cab was okay by me. I only use it a couple of times throughout the night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Okay. The Crate PB was nice, but played Saturday with my Mesa Walkabout as a power amp. It felt and sounded a little warmer and less harsh. Plenty of cut though. Sucks that it doesn't fit in the Helix backpack, but I have a RokSak I use with it. Not too bad. I made some IR'S today using the solid state power section of the Mesa Walkabout and different mics and positions for my Helix XLR out path to FOH. I think I have a good, versitile and consistent stage and mains setup now. Gonna roll with this for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidb7170 Posted July 25, 2016 Share Posted July 25, 2016 I use my Crate PB case for my Quilter Tone Block 200 -- fits like a glove... Would also fit in the Helix Backpack... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted July 25, 2016 Author Share Posted July 25, 2016 Good to know about the Quilter. I'm good with the Mesa WB for now. It's actually kind of cool that it's still a Mesa head on the Mesa 212 cab, albeit a bass head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted August 6, 2016 Author Share Posted August 6, 2016 I was looking at the internal schematic in the manual of the Crate Powerblock, and it showed a Speaker Sim on the L & R Line In jacks. A lot of threads say this is a mistake, it IS NOT a mistake!!! It is definitely darker and muffled running into the Line In of the CPB than into the CD Inputs. I finally got around to trying a stereo 1/4" from Helix Phones, Y-cable to RCA adapter, then CPB in. It sounded great, nice and clear now. Just like the power section of the Mesa Walkabout. I'm back to the CPB (fits in the Helix bag) and my Recto 2x12 or Mark V 1x12 cab. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted August 17, 2016 Author Share Posted August 17, 2016 So my ear is becoming more finely tuned to the SS amp into a guitar cab rig. I was thinking about the Mesa Walkabout amp again and how its power section does have a slightly better feel than the Crate Powerblock. Of course, the Mesa bass amps have an analog power section vs the digital power section of the CPB. But it also has what Mesa calls Simul-Class power where a 12AX7 drives the MOSFETS. It's not necessarily something I can hear out of the speakers, but I can definitely feel the difference playing the two. Anyway, I'm having fun with it. Still good times with SS amps even after a few weeks with them. I think Line 6 had great concepts in the past mating their modelling with SS power sections with the Vetta, HD147 and others. They attempted to close the gap between real tube amps and modelling with Spider Valve and DT . Now Helix (and other current gen modelers) has brought a new level of realism to a single package and many of us are again looking to solid state power to purely amplify these accurate models, whether it be all-in FRFR or SS amp + guitar cab. I never thought a SS amp would be in my guitar rig again ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokimoto Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 I am using my marshall mg250dfx as a poweramp and 2x12 cab and algo using 3Sigma IR (AC30s) in the patches. To me, they sound really good all together!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe5 Posted August 19, 2016 Author Share Posted August 19, 2016 I emailed Tom at Sweetwater asking if there was a stereo solid state amp similar to the Crate Powerblock, maybe higher quality, that would fit into the Helix backpack. He recommended this little $350 gem. Gears are a turnin.....http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StealthAmp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrellM5 Posted August 19, 2016 Share Posted August 19, 2016 I emailed Tom at Sweetwater asking if there was a stereo solid state amp similar to the Crate Powerblock, maybe higher quality, that would fit into the Helix backpack. He recommended this little $350 gem. Gears are a turnin..... http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/StealthAmp That is pretty cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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