Can someone help me with a few IR questions please.

[CBTL]

So after reading lots on the forum about IRs I have decided to give them a try. I have bought the Hiwatt set from 3sigma to try on my Gilmour patches. For £5.50 it seems like a good deal. The first thing I have noticed is they sound radically different from the stock cabs. To my ears they are brighter sounding and what I would describe as airy if that makes sense. I do have a few questions if someone could oblige.

 

1. What level should the helix IR be set at? Do you just leave it at -18.0?

 

2. The 3sigma IRs come with 5 mic placements 1 - 5. 1 being at the centre of the cone and 5 the very outer edge with the other 3 incriminants between. Would "should" the tonal difference be?

 

Bare in mind I'm only a home guitarist playing at home volume but as it stands the jury is out for me with IRs. It took me ages to re-eq a patch and I'm not entirely sure if it sounds better!?

[spikey]

1. You can leave at -18 db until you are more comfy with the tones, as it just increases the volume of the frequencies that IR produces. Set to taste pretty much.

 

2. The placement of the mic from the center of the cone to the outer edge of the speaker equates to center being more treble versus the edge being less treble.

 

Being a "home" guitarist is a good thing as you are in a majority Im thinking.  :D  My advice is to play with the IR's for about an hour, and write down which ones you like the best. Why just an hour? Because you will get "ear" Fatigue and that ruins your ability to choose correctly after so long. By the 3rd or forth day you should have a selection of several IR's you prefer over the rest. Dont worry too much about more of them that are not to your liking, as this happens a lot. There are several thousand IR's to choose from so just use what sounds good and enjoy!

 

Hope this helps!  B)

[erikconcha]

Other things to consider using presets with IR's are Eq's, amp and IR placement and settings & frequency filtering.  Check out the http://thehelixchannel.com website, it has great tutorials for IR's, equalizations and other patch related information.

[CBTL]

Thanks guys, there is so much choice! Both in who to buy from and then with some library's having 500 + IRs per cab! It's melting my brain a bit 😕

[DoeWoe]

That's actually why I like 3sigma. Not only do they sound great, but I don't get as much analysis paralysis.

[PeterHamm]

And before you buy a TON of them, make sure to experiment with dual cabs in Helix with the stock cabs. For me, they take a little longer to tweak, but sound better than the few IR that I've tried.

[CBTL]

My issue is I'm really really anal! I research the sound of the player I'm trying to recreate and try and use the exact emulation on Helix, right down to the mic etc. It probably takes me 10x longer to create a tone! Think I may be a touch autistic, I should just use my bloody ears!

[HonestOpinion]

I am curious where other people are setting the 'Mix' parameter on IRs for amplification of an acoustic guitar with piezo pickups? Not an electric trying to emulate an acoustic with piezos or a Variax but an actual acoustic like a Taylor or Martin. I find that even on very good IRs intended for acoustic guitar that if I try to run the 'Mix' on the IR at 100% the preset starts to sound more artificial and more like an emulation of an acoustic guitar than a real one. I always find that running the IR at 50% or some partial mix results in a more natural and far superior acoustic sound. The sound immediately thickens up, the bottom end sounds much better and the tone is not as thin. Anyone else finding this to be the case? It reminds me of the way acoustic guitars often sound better to me direct through the PA rather than put through various digital acoustic guitar modeling pedals. As soon as I back the mix off on the IR I start to get a woodier less 'artificial' sound back through the Helix.

[jabak]

I am curious where other people are setting the 'Mix' parameter on IRs for amplification of an acoustic guitar with piezo pickups? Not an electric trying to emulate an acoustic with piezos or a Variax but an actual acoustic like a Taylor or Martin. I find that even on very good IRs intended for acoustic guitar that if I try to run the 'Mix' on the IR at 100% the preset starts to sound more artificial and more like an emulation of an acoustic guitar than a real one. I always find that running the IR at 50% or some partial mix results in a more natural and far superior acoustic sound. The sound immediately thickens up, the bottom end sounds much better and the tone is not as thin. Anyone else finding this to be the case? It reminds me of the way acoustic guitars often sound better to me direct through the PA rather than put through various digital acoustic guitar modeling pedals. As soon as I back the mix off on the IR I start to get a woodier less 'artificial' sound back through the Helix.

 

For the last few days I've been fiddling around with the exact same setup with an electric classical guitar though. Nevertheless I found some okay classical IR's (both piezo and point mics) and even tested the 3 Sigma Audio Martin D45 Impulse. I set the mix to 100% and it sounded okay to me. I did notice that the sound was more "trebly" with the mix set to 100% than for instance at 75%. Maybe your patch is different to mine?

 

My path is quite simple: Classical Guitar with presys 101 preamp -> aux in -> reverb-> us deluxe amp (fender is guess) -> 3SA Martin D45 IR -> out to studio monitors. I have no idea if this is a good or bad way to create electric acoustic patches for the helix but it sounded okay to me. Any advice someone?

 

I tested the Guitar In with PAD on but i didn't like it. The tone started to break up or something?? I dont know. I'll have to experiment some more to be sure.

[CBTL]

So I'm confused, why would you use a acoustic IR whilst using a acoustic guitar?

[HonestOpinion]

So I'm confused, why would you use a acoustic IR whilst using a acoustic guitar?

 

I would assume you use an acoustic IR for the same reason you would you an acoustic guitar combo or acoustic head/cab. It is similar to the reason you use an IR from a cab intended for electric guitar. Not a bad question though, perhaps there are good reasons not to although if there are they don't appear obvious.

[jabak]

So I'm confused, why would you use a acoustic IR whilst using a acoustic guitar?

 

Good question and one that I asked my self when fiddling around with stock cabs. But it turned out that it actually changed the tone of my electric classical quite a bit and i liked it. I'm no expert but i liked the tone.

 

I also tested a paths like this: Classical Guitar -> aux in -> reverb-> Archetype Clean -> various stock cabs-> out and: Classical Guitar -> aux in -> reverb-> Archetype Clean -> cabir IRs -> out. Those variants sounded good to me also.

 

I dont know where I'm headed at but experimenting with the helix is really rewarding. I've not been able to find anyone doing electric classical patches with helix on google or youtube so i decided just to try it out for myself.

[jabak]

I would assume you use an acoustic IR for the same reason you would you an acoustic guitar combo or acoustic head/cab. It is similar to the reason you use an IR from a cab intended for electric guitar. Not a bad question though, perhaps there are good reasons not to although if there are they don't appear obvious.

 

That was my reasoning behind using the acoustic impulses. I don't think the helix comes with any amps or combos designed for acoustic electrics so i just gave it a shot with acoustic IRs. I'm not sure my patch is optimal but compressors and noise gates seems to flatten the sound in a way i dont like so i took them out of my patches.

[HonestOpinion]

So I'm confused, why would you use a acoustic IR whilst using a acoustic guitar?

 

 

That was my reasoning behind using the acoustic impulses. I don't think the helix comes with any amps or combos designed for acoustic electrics so i just gave it a shot with acoustic IRs. I'm not sure my patch is optimal but compressors and noise gates seems to flatten the sound in a way i dont like so i took them out of my patches.

 

Ultimately I guess I am trying to recreate the sound and 'acoustic space' of a good miked up acoustic guitar amp. Some acoustic IRs also give me the capability, similar to some of the acoustic stomp modelers, to emulate a selection of brands of acoustic guitar sounds (e.g. Taylor, Martin, Gibson, etc.).

 

It would seem like a good approach might be an IR that strictly emulates the sound of a quality microphone placed in front of the guitar with no cab at all. Essentially having the body of an acoustic guitar be the equivalent of the cab in a conventional electric guitar IR. Anything that gets me a more natural sound than the piezo direct to the PA. I wonder if there is a way to make an IR like that for acoustic guitar or if perhaps that is what some are already doing.

[CBTL]

I understand now! I was under the impression that the IR modelled the guitar i.e. to make an electric sound acoustic! I might try one with a variax acoustic to see if it breaths some life into them, I find them quite lacking. That could be my amp though!

[HonestOpinion]

I understand now! I was under the impression that the IR modelled the guitar i.e. to make an electric sound acoustic! I might try one with a variax acoustic to see if it breaths some life into them, I find them quite lacking. That could be my amp though!

 

From what I have heard from most of the acoustic guitar IRs they do seem better suited to helping a Variax or piezo equipped electric guitar (sometimes even with magnetic pickups) sound more like an acoustic. Most of the ones I have tried don't seem to do a great job with acoustic guitars. At least that has been my experience but I don't think that necessarily means that good IRs for acoustic guitars can't or aren't being produced.

[jabak]

From what I have heard from most of the acoustic guitar IRs they do seem better suited to helping a Variax or piezo equipped electric guitar (sometimes even with magnetic pickups) sound more like an acoustic. Most of the ones I have tried don't seem to do a great job with acoustic guitars. At least that has been my experience but I don't think that necessarily means that good IRs for acoustic guitars can't or aren't being produced.

 

As I understand the somewhat sparse information on 3 Sigma Audio's website I'm using their acoustic impulses correctly. Their acoustic impulse libs comes with three flavors of impulses: piezo, soundhole and electric. The last one being the one optimized for electric guitars but I was not impressed at first. Maybe it takes some noodling to make them sound good. But the Piezo variants did a great job in my opinion and sounded quite well even with my nylon string equipped acoustic electric.

 

But then again. I'm not 100% sure that I'm doing things the right way. Maybe the amp should/could be left out of the patch: guitar -> aux in -> reverb -> IR -> out.

 

Anyway. Besides the acoustic IR thing I will do some experiments with the mix setting as well. But to be on the same playing field it would be nice to know how your patch is pieced together?

[CBTL]

Iv just tried one I got with a Greg Delunne set. I tried it with all variax acoustics 1-5. First thing I had to do was boost it right up to the highest +db. It really didn't do anything. My signal path was variax vdu - tube pre amp - IR - eq - reverb. Iv found that in general I really have to boost the highs on patches with my variax acoustic models to stop them sounding dull and muddy. It could be my cab ??

[PeterHamm]

Here's a quick comparison of a straight piezo and 3 Sigma IR.

 

[spikey]

Nice test Hamm. I actually prefer the IR on the 1st go over the guitar. On the 2nd guitar I liked the guitar but just a slight bit more. The IR's seem a tad darker, or of less peaks. I know they were normalized but still. On the 3rd, Im back to the IR. Smoother, creamy goodness. 

[CBTL]

I'm with spikey! I would be intrested to hear the same thing but using a variax in acoustic mode on its own and then into an IR !

 

Iv decided to ditch the IR cabs and go down the duel cab route as Hamm suggested. It's much easier to mess about with mics/er/distance. I'm going to setup a clean amp with as flat an eq as I can and go through each mic and write down its characteristics. I wouldn't know the tonal difference from one to the other, real or modelled and need a reference sheet to help in my choices i.e. Warm, toppy, bassy etc.

[jabak]

I'm with spikey! I would be intrested to hear the same thing but using a variax in acoustic mode on its own and then into an IR !

 

Iv decided to ditch the IR cabs and go down the duel cab route as Hamm suggested. It's much easier to mess about with mics/er/distance. I'm going to setup a clean amp with as flat an eq as I can and go through each mic and write down its characteristics. I wouldn't know the tonal difference from one to the other, real or modelled and need a reference sheet to help in my choices i.e. Warm, toppy, bassy etc.

 

I see no reason to go either way exclusively. I'm using both IRs and stock cabs. Arguably the stock cabs does sound good and are easy to adjust. On the other hand browsing through a 500 IR lib takes time but when you find the few IRs to your taste it makes things so much easier.

 

​Listening to the test i actually liked the 3SA IRs the most. It's all about options.

[jaminjimlp]

I'll just stick with my variax I was trying a bunch before I got it too get acoustic sounds and was never satisfied variax does a great job emulating an acoustic guitar...

 

upon reading this I was thinking about the stage source speakers The "T" versions that have the acoustic model knob on them to bring the body of the guitar sound up or back however you would like to say it or they say it and wondering if that was something that would be able to be added to the Helix as well

[jbuhajla]

I use both stock cabs and IRs. Before you buy any, try the free one from Ownhammer and Redwirez. I tried those for a couple of weeks then bought a few. I just tried them for the first time live yesterday and are very happy with them. They sound more bright and full to me and seem to respond to picking articulation more naturally. That's just my feelings on them.