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jdosher

External amp switching not following snapshots properly

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In all of my presets I'm using the EXT AMP output to switch channels on my Blackbird preamp pedal (for clean vs dirty). When I move between different snapshots the EXT AMP state changes properly; however, if I toggle a footswitch assigned to EXT AMP in one snapshot, then move to another snapshot the EXT AMP relay doesn't change. The on/off state of the assigned footswtich LCD/LED does change state, but the actual state of the relay isn't changing. 

 

Here's a specific example:

snapshot 1 is clean (ie EXT AMP is "off", or dim)

snapshot 2 is clean, but has some extra effects on it

 

1) Switch to snapshot 2, play, push the EXT AMP footswitch to "on", preamp switches, distortion is on.

2) Switch to snapshot 1, EXP AMP LCD indicates amp is "off" and I should be back on the clean channel, but the preamp pedal is actually still on the distorted channel.

3) Push EXT AMP footswitch to "on", LCD indicates "on", preamp stays on distorted channel. Push EXT AMP footswitch a second time, LCD indicates "off", preamp is finally switched to its clean channel. 

 

So, basically, if you manually change the state of EXT AMP in a snapshot, it's not correctly changing states when you move to a different snapshot. The relay follows states properly when changing between snapshots, and manual changes also work properly in any given snapshot, but manually changing states in one snapshot gets out of sync when changing to another snapshot.

 

Is there something I'm not understanding, or is this a bug? It seems like a bug to me. 

 

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If I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that in both these snapshots, you have the EXT AMP saved to be the same thing. I think that's the whole issue. If you change snapshots, regardless of the state the relay is actually in, the snapshot will only fire the relay if you're coming from a snapshot which has the relay saved in a different state. I believe this is probably the designed behavior. Whether or not it could be made to look at the actual state and then decide to change, I don't know. I don't see why not.

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Funny I just saw the other thread you posted in, and I just realized I gave nearly the identical answer in that thread back in November... I have no memory of typing that response though. :)

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I'd say what you're trying to do is perfectly normal - and yes I would say it's a bug - either that or a design flaw in the snapshot recall process.

 

I suppose the algorithm compares the new snapshot to the old snapshot and makes any changes necessary - but it needs to be able to compare the new snapshot to the current state also - surely all the other FX blocks recall properly upon snapshot change if you've manually toggled them??  

 

I would expect that when I select a snapshot it will recall the snapshot.  Period.

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Snapshots do not toggle. They change a parameter value, turn something on, or turn something off. If you have it set to turn something on in a snapshot but that item is already on, then nothing will happen.

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I'd say what you're trying to do is perfectly normal - and yes I would say it's a bug - either that or a design flaw in the snapshot recall process.

 

I suppose the algorithm compares the new snapshot to the old snapshot and makes any changes necessary - but it needs to be able to compare the new snapshot to the current state also - surely all the other FX blocks recall properly upon snapshot change if you've manually toggled them??  

 

I would expect that when I select a snapshot it will recall the snapshot.  Period.

I agree. The whole idea of the "snapshot" is that it exactly recalls the stored state. I wanted to make sure it wasn't just me. I'd definitely call it a bug, or an oversight. I certainly understand why it works out that way because the Command Center thinks it doesn't need to "resend" the Ext Amp message. But I think the Helix needs to look at the current state of the Ext Amp and see if that differs from the new state when changing snapshots. It certainly does that with any effect that you've turned on/off. As it is now, the hardware and firmware aren't in sync, and that's a bug in my mind. Oh yeah, it's also a pain in the lollipop ;-)

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I had this very same problem last night. It is very annoying. The only way I was able to get it to properly switch the relay was to un-assign from a pedal, go to command center and assign the relay to the first lightning bolt, them go through each Snapshot and set the relay value to tip for my channel 2 or sleeve for channel one respectively. While I got this to work, there are two problems with this method. One, typically on my amp (Mesa Lonestar Special) the ring activates the 'Solo' mode, well I don't want the solo mode activated, I just want to switch back to the clean channel 1 sound,  I needed to plug the chord into the mono channel switch input on the back of the amp. So I am effectively prevented from using the ring switch for anything because it is being reserved as ' the value other than tip active' if that makes sense. Also, my first approach was to assign the switch to a pedal so I could activate the stop mode and change channels at will. Even after assigning the switching per Snapshot, if I have this action assigned to a stomp pedal, it prevents the switching I previously programmed.

 

When I use the switching in preset mode it works quote different, I either assign the relay to latch on the tip for Channel2 or I assign no relay function at all for channel 1, easy and frees up the ring relay to use for whatever other device or mode I want to activate.

 

Yes, my vote I this is a big bug.

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From page 36 in manual:

 

NOTE: At this time, Ext Amp control messages are not transmitted per snapshot when assigned to an instant command; only when assigned to a footswitch.

 

So yeah, this is a known issue. At least it says "at this time" which might imply they will fix it in a firmware update.

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Wow. This is ridiculous. 

Today I was trying to set up my Helix to work with a new amp (Bogner Shiva). The Ext Amp control is able to switch channels and turn on/off the boost on the Shiva. All good. Then I noticed something odd: the relays for Ext Amp control are NOT following the snapshot state properly. So I google around, only to discover this very thread I started....OVER A F***ING YEAR AGO. C'mon Line 6, get your sh*t together and correct this software bug. If I manually switch amp channels by pressing an assigned footswitch while in a snapshot, the amp channel should then change to the proper state when I change to a different snapshot. The LED ring changes state properly, but the relays in the Helix are NOT changing properly. THIS IS A BUG. FIX IT!!!

 

Effects blocks and loop states can all change to match the new snapshot; the Ext Amp relays should do the same. 

 

 

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In the hope that I could bypass this software bug by purchasing something like the Voodoo Labs MIDI amp switcher and using MIDI from the Helix, I tested this by assigning a MIDI CC toggle to a footswitch. Nope. It's even worse: MIDI CC toggle is only sent by manually pressing the footswitch. Even though the state of the assigned footswitch changes per snapshot, the MIDI CC is not sent. 

 

Line 6. Please fix your software bug and make Ext Amp switching work properly. 

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13 hours ago, jdosher said:

Wow. This is ridiculous. 

Today I was trying to set up my Helix to work with a new amp (Bogner Shiva). The Ext Amp control is able to switch channels and turn on/off the boost on the Shiva. All good. Then I noticed something odd: the relays for Ext Amp control are NOT following the snapshot state properly. So I google around, only to discover this very thread I started....OVER A F***ING YEAR AGO. C'mon Line 6, get your sh*t together and correct this software bug. If I manually switch amp channels by pressing an assigned footswitch while in a snapshot, the amp channel should then change to the proper state when I change to a different snapshot. The LED ring changes state properly, but the relays in the Helix are NOT changing properly. THIS IS A BUG. FIX IT!!!

 

Effects blocks and loop states can all change to match the new snapshot; the Ext Amp relays should do the same. 

 

 

 

10 hours ago, jdosher said:

In the hope that I could bypass this software bug by purchasing something like the Voodoo Labs MIDI amp switcher and using MIDI from the Helix, I tested this by assigning a MIDI CC toggle to a footswitch. Nope. It's even worse: MIDI CC toggle is only sent by manually pressing the footswitch. Even though the state of the assigned footswitch changes per snapshot, the MIDI CC is not sent. 

 

Line 6. Please fix your software bug and make Ext Amp switching work properly. 

 

Are you on the latest firmware?

 

I haven't messed with this in quite awhile, but the last time I checked, it was working properly.

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Hi Phil, 

Yes, I'm on the latest firmware, 2.71.0. It's definitely not working correctly. And just to be clear, Ext Amp states will follow the saved state in snapshots as expected. The bug is that if you manually change a relay state then switch to a different snapshot the LED ring will change to the saved state, but the relay doesn't change. 

 

To reproduce this:

1) save two snapshots, each with Ext Amp tip off

2) switch to snapshot 2

3) press the foot switch assigned to Ex Amp tip to turn it on. The LED ring lights up, the relay closes. In my case, my amp goes to its dirty channel.

4) now switch to snapshot 1. The LED ring turns off, but the relay stays latched on. In my case snapshot 1 is supposed to be clean, but my amp remains on its dirty channel. 

 

You can also reproduce this with a single snapshot:

1) Save a snapshot with everything turned off

2) turn on all loops, blocks, Ext Amp states, etc. 

3) press the snapshot footswitch again. Everything turns back off, including the Ext Amp footswitch LED, but the relays do NOT change back to the off (open) state. 

 

I've reproduced this with a Bogner Shiva, an Effectrode Blackbird tube preamp, and a DMM. This is most definitely a bug - not the intended behavior. 

 

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8 minutes ago, jdosher said:

Hi Phil, 

Yes, I'm on the latest firmware, 2.71.0. It's definitely not working correctly. And just to be clear, Ext Amp states will follow the saved state in snapshots as expected. The bug is that if you manually change a relay state then switch to a different snapshot the LED ring will change to the saved state, but the relay doesn't change.  

 

To reproduce this:

1) save two snapshots, each with Ext Amp tip off

2) switch to snapshot 2

3) press the foot switch assigned to Ex Amp tip to turn it on. The LED ring lights up, the relay closes. In my case, my amp goes to its dirty channel.

4) now switch to snapshot 1. The LED ring turns off, but the relay stays latched on. In my case snapshot 1 is supposed to be clean, but my amp remains on its dirty channel. 

 

You can also reproduce this with a single snapshot:

1) Save a snapshot with everything turned off

2) turn on all loops, blocks, Ext Amp states, etc. 

3) press the snapshot footswitch again. Everything turns back off, including the Ext Amp footswitch LED, but the relays do NOT change back to the off (open) state. 

 

I've reproduced this with a Bogner Shiva, an Effectrode Blackbird tube preamp, and a DMM. This is most definitely a bug - not the intended behavior. 

 

 

First of all 2.71 isn't the latest firmware - 2.80 is.

 

In your example above, do you have the Snapshot Edits parameter set to Recall?

 

The one thing is, IIRC, is that I think you may have to have the EXT AMP command assigned to both a footswitch and an Instant Command for it work. I'll have to try it again.

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Thanks Phil,

Ah, I didn't realize 2.80 had finally come out last month. I'll try 2.80 and see what happens. I don't see it mentioned in the bug fixes with the 2.80 release, but I'm hoping for the best. 

 

I have Snapshot Edits set to Discard, so the saved state of the snapshot should be reloaded. Hence the "Everything turns back off..." in my second example.

 

According to the manual the Ext Amp states should be recalled when changing snapshots. The LED state (dim or lit) is recalled, but the actual relay at the hardware level is NOT being set.

 

image.png.78f46dfa7dd5ecc2c07c88108b7ae048.png

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11 minutes ago, jdosher said:

Thanks Phil,

Ah, I didn't realize 2.80 had finally come out last month. I'll try 2.80 and see what happens. I don't see it mentioned in the bug fixes with the 2.80 release, but I'm hoping for the best. 

 

I have Snapshot Edits set to Discard, so the saved state of the snapshot should be reloaded. Hence the "Everything turns back off..." in my second example.

 

According to the manual the Ext Amp states should be recalled when changing snapshots. The LED state (dim or lit) is recalled, but the actual relay at the hardware level is NOT being set.

 

image.png.78f46dfa7dd5ecc2c07c88108b7ae048.png

 

Some of this is coming back to me now... One thing in your example is that have each snapshot saved with the EXT AMP Tip off. I believe that for these commands, the Helix is comparing the value that was saved in each snapshot to decide whether it shoots out the command when you go to the new snapshot (not the current state of the switch). So it's seeing that in Snapshot 2, the saved setting is Off and that's the same as in Snapshot 1, so it doesn't change the state of the relay. I believe that may be the logic. If you had Snapshot Edits set to Recall, I think it would maybe work because hitting the EXT AMP switch will actually change the value saved in the snapshot.

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well,  two things: the relay state is not a command that gets sent out the MIDI port like the CCs and PC messages. If the footswitch controlling a relay changes to 'off' in a snapshot, then you'd expect the relay to reflect that state, yeah? For the LED state and the relay state to NOT match is a serious bug. Period. 

 

Also, if you have Snapshot Edits set to Recall, then it won't change the Ext Amp (or other items you've manually pressed) back to the state in the new snapshot. That would defeat the purpose of going back to, for example, the clean channel when I go to snapshot 1. When I hit a footswitch that's labeled "CLEAN" I want the dang Helix to change my amp back to its clean channel!! I don't just want the LED ring on the Ext Amp footswitch to go dim while the relay stays close and my amp stays on its dirty channel. Right!? This is firmware bug - there's just no way around that. I'm hoping it's fixed in 2.80, or I may just ditch the Helix.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, jdosher said:

well,  two things: the relay state is not a command that gets sent out the MIDI port like the CCs and PC messages. If the footswitch controlling a relay changes to 'off' in a snapshot, then you'd expect the relay to reflect that state, yeah? For the LED state and the relay state to NOT match is a serious bug. Period. 

 

Also, if you have Snapshot Edits set to Recall, then it won't change the Ext Amp (or other items you've manually pressed) back to the state in the new snapshot. That would defeat the purpose of going back to, for example, the clean channel when I go to snapshot 1. When I hit a footswitch that's labeled "CLEAN" I want the dang Helix to change my amp back to its clean channel!! I don't just want the LED ring on the Ext Amp footswitch to go dim while the relay stays close and my amp stays on its dirty channel. Right!? This is firmware bug - there's just no way around that. I'm hoping it's fixed in 2.80, or I may just ditch the Helix.

 

 

 

EXT AMP is treated almost exactly like the MIDI commands. Yes, I think the LED not matching the relay is a bug (not one I'd necessarily call serious, but that's another discussion I suppose). I don't know if it's been address in 2.80 or not.

 

So just to be clear - If you have two snapshots - one where the EXT AMP is set for the clean channel and the other is set and saved for the dirty, does the channel change when you change snapshots? It seems to me the issue is that you're hitting the switch while in one snapshot and things get messed up when you go back to the other. If you only change snapshots does it work as you'd expect?

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Hi Phil, yeah, read back through my previous posts: the relays track state properly when only changing snapshots. The issue is changing relay state in a snapshot, then the relay isn't getting properly changed back to its saved (and indicated) state when changing snapshots (or recalling the same snapshot). If I assign a loop to a footswitch I expect that loop to go to its saved state regardless of what happened in a different snapshot. Same with block's bypass state. And I think the same should be expected of the Ext Amp relays! Clearly the system things it's changing back to the stored state - the LED ring turns off. But the relay doesn't change to reflect the state of the footswitch. When I go from a screaming lead on channel two with the boost (on my Shiva) turned on, then I hit 'CLEAN' to go to a nice, quiet clean sound, I'd say it's pretty serious bug when my CH2 and BOOST footswitches are dim but my amp is still screaming like a banshee and I don't know what the hell is going on!

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2 hours ago, jdosher said:

Hi Phil, yeah, read back through my previous posts: the relays track state properly when only changing snapshots. The issue is changing relay state in a snapshot, then the relay isn't getting properly changed back to its saved (and indicated) state when changing snapshots (or recalling the same snapshot). If I assign a loop to a footswitch I expect that loop to go to its saved state regardless of what happened in a different snapshot. Same with block's bypass state. And I think the same should be expected of the Ext Amp relays! Clearly the system things it's changing back to the stored state - the LED ring turns off. But the relay doesn't change to reflect the state of the footswitch. When I go from a screaming lead on channel two with the boost (on my Shiva) turned on, then I hit 'CLEAN' to go to a nice, quiet clean sound, I'd say it's pretty serious bug when my CH2 and BOOST footswitches are dim but my amp is still screaming like a banshee and I don't know what the hell is going on!

I hope I'm understanding you properly, so forgive me if what I'm commenting isn't relevant.

 

But on my HX Effects, I have EXT AMP, set to Footswitch 6, then in snapshot 1 I have it for the clean channel (lit). Then for dirty on snapshot 2 (dim). Both are set to 1(Tip).

Snap 1, set it to lit, save. Snap 2, set it to dim, save. And then it works.

 

2.80 update has added a "none" setting to control EXT AMP, but this can only be used in Instant Commands. Which seems very strange to me.

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Hi C4TH, 

Nope, that's not the issue. Read back through this thread. Save two snapshots to have the same EXT AMP settings (dim). In snapshot two press your EXT AMP footswitch (lit). Switch back to snapshot one. The LED will go back to dim, but your amp will still be in the 'lit' state (clean in your case). The Helix is comparing the saved snapshot state rather than the actual state of the relay when decided to toggle the relay state. Maybe (hopefully) 2.80 has fixed this. I hope it has. I'm going to try it this evening. 

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I updated to 2.80. No luck. The bug persists. I think that's strike 3 for me - this piece of junk is going on Craigslist. I've been working around this bug every since the Helix came out, but I've had my fill. Line 6 has added a bunch of useless amp and FX models I don't need, but can't fix a major bug. I'm done. 

 

 

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I can confirm everything jdosher and anyone else says about this bug.  You should be able to adjust your amp channel on the fly, then press the snapshot to return to the saved state.  When the LED and the state does not match, you can reload the preset and it will return to the saved state (just fyi) but that is not a valid work-around.  Also, if you use 4-cable method you will have a serious ground loop hum.  When I disconnect the amp channel cable the hum will go away.  This tells me the relays are not isolated.

 

I purchased an RJM Switch Gizmo to solve that problem.  The Switch Gizmo fixed the HUM, but not the saved state for channel switching.  Oddly enough the "midi" sent from Helix behaves the same way as the Bug jdosher is talking about when using the EXT Amp Switcher.

 

I made this video 2 years ago and posted it here (jdosher, please check it out).  https://www.dropbox.com/s/p02pop084k3nvi7/CC_Toggle_J_Marsh.MOV?dl=0

About a year later, and a year ago, someone from Line6 asked me to send it again. I was excited that someone was interested in this.  But apparently nothing ever happened.

 

I agree with jdosher that this is a serious bug.  It should have been addressed 2 years ago when I made this video.  I ended up giving my Helix to my son who plays electric violin and doesn't need amp channel switching (works great for him).  I had to go back to my RJM products which work properly when sending amp channel commands.

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Oh GREAAAAT. Now with 2.80 firmware the EXT AMP is even MORE broken. When I engage the 'ring' relay (should engage boost on my Bogner Shiva), it's now causing it to switch back to channel 1, even though the 'tip' relay is still engaged. I hate to say it, but my time with the Helix is coming to an end. I'm probably going to pick up a Boss ES-8 and go back to real pedals. Line 6 has failed to fix this bug, and now they've actually made it worse, to the point that I can no longer use the Helix at all to switch the channels and boost on my amp. They've also failed to implement a much needed feature (global blocks) which is what has lead me to use external pre-amps and/or amps and real drive pedals in the first place. I need a consistent sound, not 100 different amp sims to sound like other musicians. 

 

addendum: This is totally fcked up. Now when I switch EXT AMP sleeve on/off the built in expression pedal changes from 98% to 100%. Line 6 has seriously messed something up in the firmware. 

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10 hours ago, jdosher said:

Oh GREAAAAT. Now with 2.80 firmware the EXT AMP is even MORE broken. When I engage the 'ring' relay (should engage boost on my Bogner Shiva), it's now causing it to switch back to channel 1, even though the 'tip' relay is still engaged. I hate to say it, but my time with the Helix is coming to an end. I'm probably going to pick up a Boss ES-8 and go back to real pedals. Line 6 has failed to fix this bug, and now they've actually made it worse, to the point that I can no longer use the Helix at all to switch the channels and boost on my amp. They've also failed to implement a much needed feature (global blocks) which is what has lead me to use external pre-amps and/or amps and real drive pedals in the first place. I need a consistent sound, not 100 different amp sims to sound like other musicians. 

 

addendum: This is totally fcked up. Now when I switch EXT AMP sleeve on/off the built in expression pedal changes from 98% to 100%. Line 6 has seriously messed something up in the firmware. 

 

I just remembered I saw this exchange on Facebook regarding the EXT AMP functionality. It seems there is a known bug that they're fixing (Igor does a lot of the DSP coding for Line 6). So I think that's what you might be noticing there.

 

6bjCR0u.png

 

As far the EXT AMP and snapshot thing, I don't know what else to say. Yes, the fact that the LED state is getting misaligned is a bug, but the fact the relay functionality is actually working the way Line 6 intended it to. When changing snapshot, the Helix compares the state of relay to the one saved in the snapshot, not the current state. I can see why having it work the way you're suggesting would be desirable.

 

As far as the ES-8, it seems a bit like cutting off your nose to spite your face to me. The ES-8 has no comparable feature to snapshots. Programming it seems very painful to me, but if you think it will suit you better, than by all means, you should go that route.

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Thanks for the info.

 

I guess I don't see anything in the manual that leads me to believe the intended function is for the EXT AMP relays to NOT revert to the saved snapshot state. That bit of the manual I posted says to me that I should expect the relays to track the saved state. I think that's a bug.  I don't see why anyone would want their fx blocks and external loops to revert to the snapshot state, but not the EXT AMP relays (assuming you have shapshot edits set to discard, which I do). If Line 6 doesn't consider that a bug and has no intention of fixing it, then that's another solid reason for me to move on from the Helix, just as @JeffMarshMusic discussed earler in this thread.  I found a good deal on a used Boss ES-8 and I have a pretty nice set of pedals I've collected over the past 30 years, plus I just picked up this great sounding Bogner Shiva. I think it's time for me to go back to real amps and pedals. I'll see what happens with 2.81, try the ES-8 for a while, and decided then. If the Helix doesn't make its way back in to my rig it may end up relegated to home use. The amp and cab sims would be handy for songwriting and recording demos at least.

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4 hours ago, jdosher said:

Thanks for the info.

 

I guess I don't see anything in the manual that leads me to believe the intended function is for the EXT AMP relays to NOT revert to the saved snapshot state. That bit of the manual I posted says to me that I should expect the relays to track the saved state. I think that's a bug.  I don't see why anyone would want their fx blocks and external loops to revert to the snapshot state, but not the EXT AMP relays (assuming you have shapshot edits set to discard, which I do). If Line 6 doesn't consider that a bug and has no intention of fixing it, then that's another solid reason for me to move on from the Helix, just as @JeffMarshMusic discussed earler in this thread.  I found a good deal on a used Boss ES-8 and I have a pretty nice set of pedals I've collected over the past 30 years, plus I just picked up this great sounding Bogner Shiva. I think it's time for me to go back to real amps and pedals. I'll see what happens with 2.81, try the ES-8 for a while, and decided then. If the Helix doesn't make its way back in to my rig it may end up relegated to home use. The amp and cab sims would be handy for songwriting and recording demos at least.

 

This is the part of the manual (on pg 36) that I'm referring to:

 

J7kayVs.png

 

The "value changing" refers to the value saved with the snapshot. Now I'm not saying I think you can't make a case for it being the way you want, but just that I don't think they consider the current behavior a bug (apart from the new 2.80 bug mentioned above).

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It's not really clear from the manual though, is it? Because it also says this

 

image.png.78f46dfa7dd5ecc2c07c88108b7ae048.png

 

I don't think of the EXT AMP relays as "messages" - they're hardware built into the unit and I think they should be consistent with the button state. Oh well. 

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FWIW, not considering this a bug would be very ignorant towards the people using the Helix with an external amp. One could argue that it's not very logical that the external control commands behave different from internal bypass states. If I assign a footswitch to an FX block and save it as "off" in two snapshots, the bypass state of the block correctly turns off if I engage it manually between snapshot changes (I use the Helix in the same way with snapshot edits to discard).

 

Everybody and his mother would call it a bug if the block bypass state would behave like it does on the EXT controls. I really wish Line 6 would be taking bugs interfacing with external gear much more seriously - see the desaster with CC toggles, which is a two year old bug. I work my way around the EXT switching issue by never never ever ever touching the EXT AMP state between snapshot, but this really sucks.

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I understand if people don’t like the way something works, but you can’t call something a bug if it’s the designed, intended behavior.

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Well then it's a broken design. Call it a kitchen appliance if you will... still something that needs fixing. In the context of the "discard snapshot edit" this is totally broken. If I set my Helix to discard I expect it to recall the snapshot as it was saved, including the states of external controls. Honestly, there isn't a single use case I can imagine that would require JUST the ext amp to behave differently from everything else. The LED turning off but the switch contact not following is a dead giveaway that this can't be the intended behaviour.

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2 minutes ago, nhoven said:

Well then it's a broken design. Call it a kitchen appliance if you will... still something that needs fixing. In the context of the "discard snapshot edit" this is totally broken. If I set my Helix to discard I expect it to recall the snapshot as it was saved, including the states of external controls. Honestly, there isn't a single use case I can imagine that would require JUST the ext amp to behave differently from everything else. The LED turning off but the switch contact not following is a dead giveaway that this can't be the intended behaviour.

 

It behaves like all the other commands in the Command Center. Values are only sent out if they are saved in a different state in the destination snapshot than they are saved in the current snapshot.

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It's still a useless, broken, buggy design. No sugarcoating around that. Might sound harsh, but that's the truth as I (and probably others battling with those kinds of issues controling external amps battle with) see it. If you want it the way it is now, remove the ability to change the contact state between snapshots. This is inconsistent and spells out trouble for the user.

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If you watch the video I made (earlier in this thread) you will see that the EXT Amp & CC toggle become inverted after switching amp channels manually.  Helix will send "CC 0" when it was programmed to send "CC 127"  When I select a Snapshot, it should send the CC number I chose when I saved the Snapshot.  Not the opposite command.  The net result of the "designed intended behavior" yields the experience of a BUG (did I say that right?)

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I've opened a support ticket about that CC toggle bug almost two years ago. Got closed with "we'll get back on that". If I was a cynic I would say someting like "shows how much Line 6 care about users interfacing with non-L6 gear"... at least the EXT control doesn't do the inverting thing like the CC toggle.

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According to jdosher (original poster) he's experiencing the same issue I do with CC.  He was told that it's the intended design.  I also opened a ticket 2 years ago but received no support on the matter.  

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16 minutes ago, JeffMarshMusic said:

According to jdosher (original poster) he's experiencing the same issue I do with CC.  He was told that it's the intended design.  I also opened a ticket 2 years ago but received no support on the matter.  

 

This CC Toggle thing does indeed look like a pretty obvious bug to me... It's not clear to me if jdosher was explaining the same thing or not reading his post about CCs. It sounded like he wasn't getting the CC messages to fire at all with snapshots for some reason. You mentioned you gave the Helix to your son. What's the last firmware you tried this with?

 

The CC Toggle thing is in the same neighborhood the EXT AMP thing, but I actually think that seems to working as designed (regardless if one agrees with that design or not).

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Amen. 

I can't envision a scenario where a user wants block bypass state, external effects loop state, the state of the LED ring on a EXT AMP footswitch, but NOT the relay itself to snap back to the saved snapshot state. I really can't buy the argument of "that's the intended design". What it is, is a design flaw - one that Line 6 has been negligent in addressing every since the Helix came out. It's really frustrating to see firmware release notes touting this and that new effects or amp model, but then release after release they're not addressing some serious bugs. IN FACT, they completely broke the EXT AMP switching in 2.80 and released the firmware without even realizing it. This is clear indication to me that Line 6 isn't testing how the Helix interacts with external amps, preamps, and effects units.  Again, they're selling the ability to seamlessly integrate with real amps and external MIDI gear, but they're not implementing in a reliable, professional way, and they're not thoroughly testing their firmware before releasing it. 

 

I'm not a professional musician, and I'm not currently touring, but I've played guitar for 39 years, I've recorded several albums, and I take it very seriously. While I think Line 6 almost hit the ball out of the park with the Helix, over time I've started to feel like their intended target is just a tad short of the professional, serious, touring musician. And maybe that's not a bad thing on their part because, really, the ratio of "regular" folks to pro musicians is probably 100,000:1. You target your product where the market lies. I'm sure Fender makes way more money selling MIM Strats than Custom Shop guitars. 

 

For the time being I've thrown in the towel on the Helix. It's been pulled from my rig and I'm going a different route. I'll see what transpires when 2.81 is released (and also see how long that takes). FWIW, last night I plugged into a Timmy, the front of my Bogner Shiva, and stuck an analog delay in the fx loop. I was doing some volume swells and I could hear the transition from clean to distorted in the preamp, then the Timmy, then the power tubes. It was inspiring, and felt like a level of expression somewhat like a cellist varying bow pressure. I know - sounds like a bit of hyperbole, but it was something I haven't been experiencing with my rig in a while. The electrical engineer in me knows that quality A/Ds and models can/should be imperceptible to "the real thing", but something different sure was going on there. Or maybe I'm just trying to help myself ditch the Helix despite the unarguable convenience it offers. :-) 

 

 

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