Amp Models In Dt25 Standalone

[oehman]

This must be listed somewhere, but I haven't found it.

 

What specific HD amp pre's are used for the four voicings of the DT25?

 

I'm guessing it's

Fender Twin

Park 75

Vox AC30

Mesa Double Rectifier

 

And DT25 is using amp pre's with default cabinets and microphones?

 

So if you hook up the 500HD and choose no amp block, those are the amps you are hearing?

And if you choose those blocks on the 500HD while connected via L6 link, the sound doesn't change because the DT25 uses the same exact settings?

 

 

 

Thanks

 

 

[phil_m]

I'm guessing it's

Fender Twin

Park 75

Vox AC30

Mesa Double Rectifier

 

You guessed correctly...

 

 

So if you hook up the 500HD and choose no amp block, those are the amps you are hearing?

And if you choose those blocks on the 500HD while connected via L6 link, the sound doesn't change because the DT25 uses the same exact settings?

 

 

If you choose the pre model of one of those specific amps, yes, you should be able to match what you're hearing from the DT-25 when using it standalone. One thing to remember is that the DT-25 standalone does use cab models. Also, because of the complexity of the HD500's signal path, there are multiple things that could effect your gain staging going into the amp model. So it's not necessarily automatic that you'll get them to match exactly. But they are the same preamp models.

[jegler]

One thing to remember is that the DT-25 standalone does use cab models. 

Can you elaborate on this? The DT25 is itself a cabinet and tech support told me that the DT25's DI does not have cabinet modeling; cab has to come from the hd500. 

[TheRealZap]

there is a default cab model selected internally within the DT amps... you can't change it from the DT amp alone (you can change the default with the 2.0 upgrade VIA midi)

i think that tech support must have misunderstood the question.

 

Can you elaborate on this? The DT25 is itself a cabinet and tech support told me that the DT25's DI does not have cabinet modeling; cab has to come from the hd500. 

[Stratman82]

One thing to remember is that the DT-25 standalone does use cab models. Also, because of the complexity of the HD500's signal path, there are multiple things that could effect your gain staging going into the amp model. So it's not necessarily automatic that you'll get them to match exactly. But they are the same preamp models.

Oh so true and so frustrating! It's this aspect of the podHD > DT25 combination that massively detracts from its usefulness. Many on this forum make excuses and allude to "stellar versatility" etc but there are some parameters that should just configure and work automatically.

 

My latest issue is that, for some reason, as soon as I connect my amp (in LVM) to the HD500x via L6 link, the sound of my setlist of full amp patches changes immediately and very obviously. More fizzy/ gainy...almost like a raw direct out signal, this heard via the amp itself or headphones. I've no idea why this happens. As soon as I disconnect the L6 link the patches are back to normal (via headphones).

 

No doubt the reason for this is some ingeniously crafted interaction aimed at improving versatility and allowing me total control over my rig.

[TheRealZap]

sounds like the output mode changes as it should...

you're probably in studio mode that has the mic and air emulations...

when you go L6LINK it changes to stack/combo mode (depending on your amp)

this is normal... you wouldn't feed a mic'ed sound into your guitar amp...

you'll probably just have to tweak separate settings for those very different uses.

 

Oh so true and so frustrating! It's this aspect of the podHD > DT25 combination that massively detracts from its usefulness. Many on this forum make excuses and allude to "stellar versatility" etc but there are some parameters that should just configure and work automatically.

My latest issue is that, for some reason, as soon as I connect my amp (in LVM) to the HD500x via L6 link, the sound of my setlist of full amp patches changes immediately and very obviously. More fizzy/ gainy...almost like a raw direct out signal, this heard via the amp itself or headphones. I've no idea why this happens. As soon as I disconnect the L6 link the patches are back to normal (via headphones).

No doubt the reason for this is some ingeniously crafted interaction aimed at improving versatility and allowing me total control over my rig.

[Stratman82]

sounds like the output mode changes as it should...

you're probably in studio mode that has the mic and air emulations...

when you go L6LINK it changes to stack/combo mode (depending on your amp)

this is normal... you wouldn't feed a mic'ed sound into your guitar amp...

you'll probably just have to tweak separate settings for those very different uses.

 

Great...in other words, the DT25 doesn't work effectively as a PA/loudspeaker when all I want it to do is (bypass the tubes in LVM) and reproduce the full amp patch tones I use with headphones direct from HD500x. I wouldn't say they are "very different uses" at all- I just want to use LVM to monitor my full amp patches at lower volume without using headphones.

 

So, a seperate set of patches and parameter tweaks for HD500x alone, DT25 in LVM and DT25 in full power mode! I think Line 6 need to reconsider their "versatility" in favour of streamlining and usability for regular people that want to use the same gear in different settings. That is after all meant to be one of the main benefits of digital modelling.

[TheRealZap]

Great...in other words, the DT25 doesn't work effectively as a PA/loudspeaker

 

absolutely not... that's not what it is... it is a guitar amp.

 

 

I wouldn't say they are "very different uses" at all- I just want to use LVM to monitor my full amp patches at lower volume without using headphones.

 

i'm sorry... but plugging into an amp... is very different than monitoring a studio style feed...

not to mention that the volume changes our hearing perception... so simply playing at volume, and playing at low volume itself... is a very different experience.

 

 

 

So, a seperate set of patches and parameter tweaks for HD500x alone, DT25 in LVM and DT25 in full power mode! I think Line 6 need to reconsider their "versatility" in favour of streamlining and usability for regular people that want to use the same gear in different settings. That is after all meant to be one of the main benefits of digital modelling.

 

it's a guitar amp... and your attempt to use it some sort of a monitor... well that's simply not its intended use... there is no versatility in the design for that... 

 

sounds like the amp is simply not a good fit for your needs... if you need a PA/Monitor solution.... find one.

 

don't mean for this to come off snarky... just putting it all very plainly...

and from the sounds of your concerns, my opinion is that you simply have the wrong product for your needs.

[Stratman82]

absolutely not... that's not what it is... it is a guitar amp.

 

 

 

i'm sorry... but plugging into an amp... is very different than monitoring a studio style feed...

not to mention that the volume changes our hearing perception... so simply playing at volume, and playing at low volume itself... is a very different experience.

 

 

 

it's a guitar amp... and your attempt to use it some sort of a monitor... well that's simply not its intended use... there is no versatility in the design for that... 

 

sounds like the amp is simply not a good fit for your needs... if you need a PA/Monitor solution.... find one.

 

don't mean for this to come off snarky... just putting it all very plainly...

and from the sounds of your concerns, my opinion is that you simply have the wrong product for your needs.

 

I appreciate your point of view but disagree with some of it.

 

In LVM with full amp patches the setup (podHD + DT25) is an all digital, pure modelling rig. According to all official and forum logic the tubes and analogue circuitry are being bypassed.

 

IMO it should therefore function like a digital amplifier in that the signal should be identical to the studio monitoring signal via headphones, with volume adjustments possible from very high to very low not affecting tone (other than the effect of volume on hearing perception as you point out). This, I assume, would be the case if I used something like an L2t as a speaker.

 

The difference I am hearing with and without L6 connected is night and day. As I say, almost like a raw line out signal. Line 6 advertise this aspect  of the rig (LVM) as allowing "whisper quiet" practice all the way through to stage volume. Mabye, but seemless and effortless it ain't. In terms of practicality and effort required, I might as well have 3 different rigs for quiet, medium and loud volume.

 

I agree though that the DT25 probably is the wrong product for my needs at present.

[TheRealZap]

you have some incorrect information:

 

I appreciate your point of view but disagree with some of it.

 

In LVM with full amp patches the setup (podHD + DT25) is an all digital, pure modelling rig. According to all official and forum logic the tubes and analogue circuitry are being bypassed.

 

 

there is no mode where the amp produces sound that will bypass the tubes.... there is no backup/solidstate amp built in.. the amp is 100% analog tube.

 

 

 

IMO it should therefore function like a digital amplifier in that the signal should be identical to the studio monitoring signal via headphones, with volume adjustments possible from very high to very low not affecting tone (other than the effect of volume on hearing perception as you point out).

 

the IMO part, pretty much sums that statement up... its not in any way a studio monitor device... its a guitar amp.

 

Sorry, but i think it's obvious that it just isn't what you'd hoped for...

doesn't mean its not great at what it is...

certainly doesn't change your needs either... just dont think its a match.

 

 

[Stratman82]

you have some incorrect information:

 

 

there is no mode where the amp produces sound that will bypass the tubes.... there is no backup/solidstate amp built in.. the amp is 100% analog tube.

 

So are you saying we are acheiving poweramp distortion and real tube influence on tone in LVM with full amp model patches from the HD500?

 

It would be useful to know how much influence on tone the poweramp tubes are having in different modes i.e. 100% in pre amp patch/ full volume mode, x% in LVM with full ampo model etc etc.

 

The L6 connectivity guide is vague...in the section on Direct Out (4-6) it states " Low volume mode on, amp on = direct out signal consists of the "full" amp model and the analogue amp", whatever that means.

 

Thanks for your clarification.

[TheRealZap]

no.... i'm saying that even at low volumes the tubes are providing the poweramp.... no tubes equals no volume.

in LVM the full models simulate the tube influence of volume... but it's still playing through the tubes.

 

it is correct in the manual you cite:

 

the full amp model (which includes the emulation of the tubes)

and the analog amp (which IS the tubes... which don't particularly influence tone much at lower volumes)

[Stratman82]

no.... i'm saying that even at low volumes the tubes are providing the poweramp.... no tubes equals no volume.

in LVM the full models simulate the tube influence of volume... but it's still playing through the tubes.

 

it is correct in the manual you cite:

 

the full amp model (which includes the emulation of the tubes)

and the analog amp (which IS the tubes... which don't particularly influence tone much at lower volumes)

 

Ok that makes sense then, thanks. I guess if the analogue circuitry is still in play you would expect the tone to be different in LVM (although I'm surprised how different it is from the fully digital tone direct from HD500x, which I really like).

 

It does make the amp even less of a good fit for me though as most of my time is spent playing at volume levels more within the realms of LVM than full power mode.

 

I can accept that tone tweaking and parameter adjustment is necessary when making the jump from HD500x alone to DT25 in full power mode but a 3rd set of patches required for LVM is the nail in the coffin for this setup.

[TheRealZap]

in my setup, i simply use studio monitors in the low volume situation direct from the pod hd pro x, when i move the patches to the hd500/dt50 i know what to expect and don't have to do anything more than fine tuning.

it certainly doesn't sound the same... but its like listening to a cd versus listening to a live band... that's the difference to me... and an expected one.

[Stratman82]

in my setup, i simply use studio monitors in the low volume situation direct from the pod hd pro x, when i move the patches to the hd500/dt50 i know what to expect and don't have to do anything more than fine tuning.

it certainly doesn't sound the same... but its like listening to a cd versus listening to a live band... that's the difference to me... and an expected one.

 

Sounds like that home setup would be more suitable for me too. I agree that thats the difference when going from HD500 alone to DT25 in full power mode....albeit I'd expect more of a clear "improvement" that justifies the DT's status and price as an "all-tube amp". 

 

But the LVM sound I'm getting is really significantly fizzy and crap, to the point where I wonder if theres something wrong with the amp! Its certainly not an expected one given the quality of my HD500x patches.

[TheRealZap]

the L6LINK connection automatically changes the output mode to the suitable mode...

have you tried manually changing it back?

I don't think that you can bypass that automatic change and prevent it from happening.... but you should be able to manually change it,...

you might give that a try and see if it gives you anything useful.

[phil_m]

Not to butt in the conversation, but the DT25 in LVM is still very different than something like a small PA. The speaker in the DT25 is still a guitar speaker - it isn't full range by any means. There's no tweeter, so it's really quite different. I have found that even in LVM, the DT25 sounds best when you can turn it up a little bit. I guess what I mean by that is that it sounds best to me when it's above normal conversation level. If you want to play at a volume lower than that, you might be better off simply using headphones are some other small speaker system.

[Stratman82]

the L6LINK connection automatically changes the output mode to the suitable mode...

have you tried manually changing it back?

I don't think that you can bypass that automatic change and prevent it from happening.... but you should be able to manually change it,...

you might give that a try and see if it gives you anything useful.

 

Thanks very much for your input TheRealZap! I think the method you describe above, even if it works, would be too fiddly so I'll go with the studio monitor or headphones option and sell the DT. I guess the only issue with going FOH direct from the HD500x (on the rare occassions when I play live) would be having a decent on-stage monitor for small venues in the absence of the DT25.

 

The decisions made- I'm selling the DT25 and getting studio monitors. 

 

I will also replace with a low wattage tube amp just for fun so I've got that option at home when circumstances allow!!

 

Not to butt in the conversation, but the DT25 in LVM is still very different than something like a small PA. The speaker in the DT25 is still a guitar speaker - it isn't full range by any means. There's no tweeter, so it's really quite different. I have found that even in LVM, the DT25 sounds best when you can turn it up a little bit. I guess what I mean by that is that it sounds best to me when it's above normal conversation level. If you want to play at a volume lower than that, you might be better off simply using headphones are some other small speaker system.

 

Agreed.

[TheRealZap]

Hate to hear it, because the DT is a great amp... but I don't think it was meeting your needs. good luck.

[radatats]

sorry to hear you are going to sell the DT, I love mine for what it does best, single amp patches at volume.  Unfortunately, there is NO good low power tube solution.  I do not believe you will ever be satisfied with a tube amp for home use at low volume settings.  I suggest you consider a decent stereo SS power amp and a 2X12 cab with a stereo option.  This will allow you to make full use of the POD's capabilities as a guitar solution including creating dual amp patches, using the stereo effects and you won't have to play around with the 4 cable method.  You can make all your patches with full amp models and the patches you create for headphones and monitor will require only minor EQ adjustments with this setup even when you get to play live.  A nice 100x100 watt stereo amp and cab will set you back not much more than a low watt tube amp and give you more capabilities for the style of play you describe and the volume levels you wish to use than a tube amp.  You do not gain anything special with a tube amp other than a DT model when using the POD.  In fact, other than for the specific tones that particular amp gives when cranked, I think you would be taking a step backwards. :D

[Stratman82]

sorry to hear you are going to sell the DT, I love mine for what it does best, single amp patches at volume.  Unfortunately, there is NO good low power tube solution.  I do not believe you will ever be satisfied with a tube amp for home use at low volume settings.  I suggest you consider a decent stereo SS power amp and a 2X12 cab with a stereo option.  This will allow you to make full use of the POD's capabilities as a guitar solution including creating dual amp patches, using the stereo effects and you won't have to play around with the 4 cable method.  You can make all your patches with full amp models and the patches you create for headphones and monitor will require only minor EQ adjustments with this setup even when you get to play live.  A nice 100x100 watt stereo amp and cab will set you back not much more than a low watt tube amp and give you more capabilities for the style of play you describe and the volume levels you wish to use than a tube amp.  You do not gain anything special with a tube amp other than a DT model when using the POD.  In fact, other than for the specific tones that particular amp gives when cranked, I think you would be taking a step backwards. :D

Thanks for this, all interesting and relevant. I really love the podHD..was playing with a strat through my SRV patch today and the thing is just incredible..to the point where I agree a tube amp in some regards is not actually necessary. I may well expand my gear in the future with a SS preamp rig as you suggest.

 

However I don't agree with all of the above as I've already found an ideal low-"er" wattage real tube solution in the OR15H I purchased earlier this week. This thing is the dogs balls! Even in half power (7 watt) mode I do need my THD hotplate for around 8-12db volume attenuation in my flat but tone is well preserved. Single channel non-master volume all tube amp with simple 3 band EQ and no infernal tweaking required!! Plug and play. Using a sweep of either the volume knob on my guitar or the amps gain knob I'm not exaggerating when I say I can go from shimmery cleans to classic rock to Slash-esquel hard rock to heavier 80s Metallica without any special tweaks...all within the remit of a single channel. For me, usability, tone and feel are all superior to my DT25 which I've kept for honest comparison in the short term.

 

I've even set up a hybrid solution for playing the OR15H through headphones if I need to: amp - hotplate line out - podHD aux in through podHD Flip Top pre (very flat response) with v30 4x12 cab sim. Sounds very like the amp through a speaker. Probably a bit OTT with this method but shows what's possible.

 

As much as I love Line 6 for their modelling..... I'm glad to be rid of all the glitchyness, fuss and multiple patch requirements with a DT involved. Maybe if all I did was play at volume on stage but even so I genuinely prefer the Orange tones to all my best patches, as great as they are.

[mrkphpps]

Hey Tinman

 

I can definitely share some of your frustration.

 

My HD500 currently has two setlists - one for full models forfull range speakers / monitors, and one with pre models for my DT25 in full volume mode.

 

The tweaks between the two aren't huge - mainly just pre / full model selection then balancing the volumes.

 

It would be great if I could have one setlist then push a button somewhere an magically have the same patches work on both the monitors and the DT25.

 

As it is, there's a few minutes work involved - but I find that the sound / feel of playing through the Dt25 in full power mode, even right at the bottom end of the master volume range in a home setting, makes a huge difference. 

 

I've currently got no intention of setting up a third set for LVM on the DT25 - but who knows, one day I might go there.

 

Before I had the DT25, I was pretty happy with the POD through my studio monitors at home, and straight to PA at the few gigs I do.

 

However, one gig when the stage monitors failed mid set and having to monitor from the sound reflected back from the FOH speakers was enough to send me to the amp shop!

 

I agree with radatats - even a 5 watt Epi valve junior is too much to use in a domestic situation and get the valves contributing significantly to the tone.  However, the tweaking needed to keep a low volume preset list, and a higher volume DT25 list is a price I'm more than happy to pay for the grin factor I get when hearing the DT25 working at gig volume as it was intended!

 

There's no right answer here - follow your ears, but don't give up just because it's slightly more complex than you expected it to be.

 

Mark

[Stratman82]

I've had it 2 years. The bottom line... I've personally recently played through two valve amps in the same ballpark price wise that sound and feel better than the DT25, including my new OR15H. IMHO the DT25 is simply not the best tube amp in its class/ price range. Perhaps one of the most versatile, but not without a lot of hard work and frustration. I'm not trolling or having a go at Line 6, but how many top guitarists use line 6 amps? Agreed many use their digital gear.

 

But it obviously works well for you, so that's great!

[ozbadman]

I've had it 2 years. The bottom line... I've personally recently played through two valve amps in the same ballpark price wise that sound and feel better than the DT25, including my new OR15H. IMHO the DT25 is simply not the best tube amp in its class. I'm not trolling or having a go at Line 6, but how many top guitarists use a DT amp? But it obviously works well for you, so that's great!

Apples and Oranges. The DT amps are multiple tube amps. The OR15H is a specific tube amp. I don't think you can say one is overall better. They're better at different things.

 

Unfortunately, you've now convinced me I need a hotplate for my DT25 as I hate the sound in low power mode. *sigh*

[Stratman82]

Apples and Oranges. The DT amps are multiple tube amps. The OR15H is a specific tube amp. I don't think you can say one is overall better. They're better at different things.

Agreed. Nice pun!

 

I'm just favouring the amp that a) sounds best within the remit of what I'm looking for (all my pod patches are geared towards the range of tones that come naturally to the OR and b )is as simple to use as possibles to facilitate guitar playing.

[Stratman82]

Think we've hijacked this thread so I won't post hear again, sorry.

[mrkphpps]

Like I said, follow your ears.

 

I've not tried other tube amps since dropping cash on the DT25.

 

In my covers band, being able to push one switch and completely change the characteristics of the power amp section to match the preamp in the POD, and just run one cable is enough to win me over.

 

Could be worse - apples and zebras?

 

Mark

[mrkphpps]

oehman

 

sorry - didn't realise we'd jumped on your thread.

 

You've got the right models for the comparison though...

 

Mark

[billlorentzen]

I don't have a DT amp yet. I am a veteran HD500 user, looking at the DT.

 

Do you all agree these are the amp models in the DT?

 

Fender Twin

Park 75

Vox AC30

Mesa Double Rectifier

 

On my HD, I don't particularly like those, except sometimes the AC30 for jazz.

[TheRealZap]

if you plan to use it with your 500... none of that matters... you can also change them via midi.

 

and to further pile on the info....

the default amps are different in a DT50 vs DT25

[milesargall]

Hi all...

So Zap; I just started a similar topic.

So based on what you're saying about the 50 and 25 having different models - what settings would I use in my 25 to get the channel IV model of the 50.

 

Cheers.

[TheRealZap]

I believe only the topology 1 is different, but not positive.

 

DT-50 Stand Alone Amp Model:

Topology and HD Preamp:

·         I: Fender Blackface Deluxe

·         II: Brit P-75

·         III: Vox AC30

·         IV: Treadplate with voicing IV on amp

 

DT-25 Stand Alone Models:

Topology and HD Preamp:

·         I: Fender BF DBL Vib

·         II: Brit P-75

·         III: Vox AC30

·         IV: Treadplate with voicing IV on amp

[milesargall]

Hey. Mate....

Thanks for the feedback.

I've done a little research, using, um, a thing called Google and also the Line 6 site to see the difference between the 25 and 50. Extra valves etc, but also different valves in the power amp section.

 

 

25 - (1) 12AX7, (2) EL84 tubes

 

Vs

 

50 - (2) 12AX7 preamp, (2) EL34 power amp (25W/50W)

 

I've got a great 2x12 Marshall cab that goes with the 25 perfectly. But I figure the 50 through my H&K V30cabs would be awesome....

Let's see.....

 

Thanks.

[TheRealZap]

your info is on the right track... i would just mention that the 12ax7's are NOT preamp tubes... preamps are entirely modeled!

 

both DT amps have a 12ax7 as an inverter, and the additional 12ax7 in the 50 is a boost. the boost is solid state in the 25.

 

Hey. Mate....
Thanks for the feedback.
I've done a little research, using, um, a thing called Google and also the Line 6 site to see the difference between the 25 and 50. Extra valves etc, but also different valves in the power amp section.


25 - (1) 12AX7, (2) EL84 tubes

Vs

50 - (2) 12AX7 preamp, (2) EL34 power amp (25W/50W)

I've got a great 2x12 Marshall cab that goes with the 25 perfectly. But I figure the 50 through my H&K V30cabs would be awesome....
Let's see.....

Thanks.