How much better would an upgrade from a Behringer Eurolive B112D sound?

[marmatkat]

Hi Everyone. I'm a new LT owner and liking it a lot. I'm wrapping my head around how to use it (single present vs. many, etc), but I wanted to ask about FRFRs. I'm using a Behringer Eurolive B112D that I had around for a practice space, and I'm wondering how much better (put that in quotes) an upgrade would sound. (I list some of the seemingly popular options below [1]) Currently I have a few things that I could see being improved:

• Output volume: I've only practiced once with my setup, but I was surprised I had to turn it up a good bit to be heard simply at practice volumes (not high). Behringer input 1 o'clock, Helix output about the same. They rate it at 1000 watts (!) but I suspect that other ones (e.g., Yamaha DXR10) might get more volume even with a smaller speaker.
• Bassy/trebly: The speaker sounds boomy plus a little brittle to my ears, so I back the two-channel EQs down almost all the way.

So my question is basically, how much better sound quality (and volume) might I look forward to with an upgrade? I understand actually testing one out would be the way to go, but short of that. Thanks!

 

[1] Powered speakers mentioned elsewhere:

• Yamaha DXR10 $600
• QSC K10 $700
• Line 6 StageSource L2t $850
• Atomic CLR Active Wedge $1000
• Mission Engineering Inc Gemini 1 $1100

[rvroberts]

I use 2 B112s in stereo as my FRFR and it works great!

Simply set your global EQ so that you have a big cut below 100hz (maybe even 120hz) and another drastic cut above about 5.5Khz.

I also put a slight kick at around 2K for extra presence and cut - just a little.

I'm getting great sound.

You will need to do something similar with any FRFR (you can do it per patch and different IRs need it more or less) but that global setting does the trick for me and I still get plenty of variation from patch to patch, IR to IR.

Now how much better one of the best FRFR boxes - the Mission or the CLR seeming to be the top choices - I'd be keen to quantify - there and none available in my part of the world to test.

But I'm going to be controversial and say that well EQ'd it's not that big of a deal!

Atomic, you are welcome to send me one to prove otherwise!!!

[DunedinDragon]

The B112D isn't really a bad powered speaker at all.  It's just a generation behind other powered speakers in terms of having built-in DSP processing to manage the sound of the speaker.

 

A lot of the folks around here use 10" versions rather than 12" versions and are happy with it primarily due to weight and size.  I personally use the DXR12.  It just gives a slightly bigger sound, but not necessarily all bass.  Just an overall bigger sound.

 

I will say, having owned both B112D's and DXR12's that there's a pretty significant difference in clarity between the two, and that may be what is causing it to get lost a little bit in the band mix rather than just volume.

 

The big differences you'll find on the newer powered speakers like the Yamaha, QSC, and Line 6 is there's no tone adjustment.  The tone adjustment is done by selecting how the speaker is to be used (for example on a pole, or on the ground in a monitor position).  This is far more accurate than simply modifying tone controls as it adjusts the entire range of frequency response rather than just one section of it.  The newer DSP driven speakers also have much more accurate control over how the speaker and compression driver are used within the frequency range, so the sound tends to be more natural and articulated.  Those are probably going to be the most representative of the sound that will be coming out of the PA speakers because they are, in fact, PA speakers.

 

I can't speak much to the cabinet and wedge style units as I've never messed with them.  I gather their appeal is more towards providing a traditional "amp" sound on stage at the cost of not being as representative of the sound that's actually coming out of the front of house PA speakers.

[Joepeggio]

 

Hi Everyone. I'm a new LT owner and liking it a lot. I'm wrapping my head around how to use it (single present vs. many, etc), but I wanted to ask about FRFRs. I'm using a Behringer Eurolive B112D that I had around for a practice space, and I'm wondering how much better (put that in quotes) an upgrade would sound. (I list some of the seemingly popular options below [1]) Currently I have a few things that I could see being improved:

• Output volume: I've only practiced once with my setup, but I was surprised I had to turn it up a good bit to be heard simply at practice volumes (not high). Behringer input 1 o'clock, Helix output about the same. They rate it at 1000 watts (!) but I suspect that other ones (e.g., Yamaha DXR10) might get more volume even with a smaller speaker.
• Bassy/trebly: The speaker sounds boomy plus a little brittle to my ears, so I back the two-channel EQs down almost all the way.

So my question is basically, how much better sound quality (and volume) might I look forward to with an upgrade? I understand actually testing one out would be the way to go, but short of that. Thanks!

 

[1] Powered speakers mentioned elsewhere:

• Yamaha DXR10 $600
• QSC K10 $700
• Line 6 StageSource L2t $850
• Atomic CLR Active Wedge $1000
• Mission Engineering Inc Gemini 1 $1100

 

 

How are you placing your B112D?  A pa speaker on the floor will be very very bassy.   

[MusicLaw]

You may also want to include the more reasonably priced Yamaha DBR10 amongst your candidates. The DBR series is nearly identical sonically to the DXR, and they share the same DSP, Contour, and HPF features. The DBR has slightly lower power and does not have RCA Line 3 Inputs.

 

I run a pair of DXR10, either, as wedge monitors, or standing vertically, and the sound with the Helix is exceptional!

[jbuhajla]

 

Simply set your global EQ so that you have a big cut below 100hz (maybe even 120hz) and another drastic cut above about 5.5Khz.

 

Not that using Global EQ is wrong for this, but it is generally used for some final tweaks for a particular room you may be playing in. A general rule of thumb is to make your core tone what you want within the preset, utilizing EQ blocks if need be. Global EQ is just that...global. It effects you signal from ALL of your presets going out of the output jacks.

 

Any PR speaker is going to be generally FRFR, so it should sound great. If you do upgrade later on, you may need to tweak your presets a little because no two speakers sound exactly the same.

 

Another great speaker option that quite a few use are the JBL Eon series (610 and 612). I got a pair of 610s on Amazon for $330 each. You really don't have to break the bank for speakers to sound great.  

[taylorbeats]

Anything ALTO compares very well to all of the above 110, 112, 210, 212.  210 and 212 have two channels not two speakers-  I had a stage source-did not like it all for helix, qscs are my main speakers for PA, ALTOs are no different in sound compared to the QSC's.

[marmatkat]

Thanks a ton, everyone. Much appreciated! I'll look at the alternatives you listed - ALTO, Eon, DBR. My replies are inline:

 

Simply set your global EQ so that you have a big cut below 100hz (maybe even 120hz) and another drastic cut above about 5.5Khz. I also put a slight kick at around 2K for extra presence and cut - just a little.

 

That's really helpful. I'll give it a try. jbuhajla: I hear you.

 

The B112D isn't really a bad powered speaker at all.  It's just a generation behind other powered speakers in terms of having built-in DSP processing to manage the sound of the speaker.

 

A lot of the folks around here use 10" versions rather than 12" versions and are happy with it primarily due to weight and size.  I personally use the DXR12.  It just gives a slightly bigger sound, but not necessarily all bass.  Just an overall bigger sound.

 

I will say, having owned both B112D's and DXR12's that there's a pretty significant difference in clarity between the two, and that may be what is causing it to get lost a little bit in the band mix rather than just volume.

 

Re: generation behind: I didn't know that. Good to know.

Re: 10 vs 12: Also helpful. I was wondering about 10s.

Re: clarity and getting lost in the mix: YES! I couldn't articulate it before, but there were points where my little fills were literally getting lost. I thought, "These usually stand out more." That right there is a major selling point for my upgrading.

 

 

How are you placing your B112D?  A pa speaker on the floor will be very very bassy.   

 

I'm putting it upright and elevated about a foot or two. I was told that that will disperse horizontally due to the horn's orientation so that we can all hear it. Good question.

[DunedinDragon]

Thanks a ton, everyone. Much appreciated! I'll look at the alternatives you listed - ALTO, Eon, DBR. My replies are inline:

 

 

That's really helpful. I'll give it a try. jbuhajla: I hear you.

 

 

Regarding using the global EQ to manage FRFR speakers.  Just to re-iterate what was said earlier, but in a different way:

 

The key problem with using global EQ to address adjusting the tone of a FRFR speaker is that not every combination of amp, cabinet, mic, and mic placement needs that much EQ.  If you're using different amps, cabs/IRs, mics, and mic placements in your patches there may be times where you need no cuts or adjustments, or only very minor ones.  In some cases combining cabinets in parallel can often fix things without having to apply dramatic EQ adjustments.  The best bet is to put together your patch then adjust what you need to by ear within that patch using parallel cabs, high and low cuts on the cabinets/IRs or selective adjustments using a parametric EQ.  This will preserve the tone much better and not lose fidelity and articulation you might want to keep.

[marmatkat]

Much obliged, DunedinDragon. I'm still very early on the learning curve. I think part of it is that I have no pedal background, and so thinking of working with blocks in this way is new. Also, I'm learning basics like the fact that cabs have EQ!

[marmatkat]

Update: I went to a Guitar Center and A/B'd my B112D with a QSC K10 and a JBL EON 10 that they had. I told myself beforehand that I wouldn't buy anything unless there was a big wow factor. Well, the QSC got me excited, so I brought one home yesterday :-) It's not magic re: eq (I'm not too surprised) - the high end seems fine, but there are two low end freqs that I need to get rid of. I'm going to download a spectrum analyzer app ($4!) but there's a boomy low one plus (on some presets) one around the D string. I did some tinkering with both the global and a parametric EQ in the preset, and I found it a little difficult to get the numbers dialed in to cut those frequencies to taste. My approach was to set the Low Q as low as possible, ditto for the Low Gain, and then explore with the Low Freq to pinpoint. I'll keep playing.

[DunedinDragon]

Update: I went to a Guitar Center and A/B'd my B112D with a QSC K10 and a JBL EON 10 that they had. I told myself beforehand that I wouldn't buy anything unless there was a big wow factor. Well, the QSC got me excited, so I brought one home yesterday :-) It's not magic re: eq (I'm not too surprised) - the high end seems fine, but there are two low end freqs that I need to get rid of. I'm going to download a spectrum analyzer app ($4!) but there's a boomy low one plus (on some presets) one around the D string. I did some tinkering with both the global and a parametric EQ in the preset, and I found it a little difficult to get the numbers dialed in to cut those frequencies to taste. My approach was to set the Low Q as low as possible, ditto for the Low Gain, and then explore with the Low Freq to pinpoint. I'll keep playing.

 

You might want to first try a different cabinet and/or mic/mic distance first.  Many times that's all that's needed.  I've found that often deals with it more naturally than immediately jumping to EQ.  Also you might want to engage the ext sub switch on the K10, especially if you have it set on the floor in the floor monitor position.  This will engage the low cut filter at 100 hz which will help with alleviating some of the bass coupling that occurs when set on the floor.

[zooey]

If you're trying to pinpoint a problem frequency, try setting Q as HIGH as possible, which makes the affected bend very narrow, set gain to a big boost, and sweep frequency around until you find the nasty one. Then you can switch to cut, and maybe widen the Q if that sounds right, and try to find settings that remove as little as possible but fix the problem.

[marmatkat]

If you're trying to pinpoint a problem frequency, try setting Q as HIGH as possible, which makes the affected bend very narrow, set gain to a big boost, and sweep frequency around until you find the nasty one. Then you can switch to cut, and maybe widen the Q if that sounds right, and try to find settings that remove as little as possible but fix the problem.

 

Makes total sense. Thank you.

 

You might want to first try a different cabinet and/or mic/mic distance first.  Many times that's all that's needed.  I've found that often deals with it more naturally than immediately jumping to EQ.

 

Also you might want to engage the ext sub switch on the K10, especially if you have it set on the floor in the floor monitor position.  This will engage the low cut filter at 100 hz which will help with alleviating some of the bass coupling that occurs when set on the floor.

 

Cab/mic/mic distance: I played with the mic that's the defaults for various factory presets, and it makes a *huge* difference. I totally see what you mean. Overwhelming as hell, but I'll get it :)

 

K10 ext sub switch: Yes, in fact I tried it and thought it improved things, so it's helpful to know that it's legit. Thanks a ton.