OD block behavior in front of an amp

[jbright44]

Curious if anyone else notices this too. If I got an amp that's set up kind of edge of break up or a little crunchy, when I put an od block in front of it, no matter how much I turn up the level, I don't ever seem to get any appreciable overall volume increase at the output. The amp blocks responds like an amp that is having the input kicked pretty hard but for some reason it doesn't seem like I get the volume boost I'm used to getting when you crank an od into a real amp or use a boost pedal. I'm always having to use either a channel volume or master volume increase or even a gain block on the output to get the kind of volume boost I'm after.

 

Any thoughts here?

[amsdenj]

If you have the amp block set so that it is just beginning to clip, then there won't be any gain left in the amp to provide a volume boost when you turn on an OD pedal in front of the amp. All the OD pedal can do is change the color of the distortion. If you want to also control volume with the OD pedal, you need to run the front of the amp a bit cleaner.

[shanecgriffo]

and maybe back right off the gain on the od pedal.. just boost the level

[willjrock]

Im betting amsdenj has given you the right answer for your situation. Also comparisons made to a hardware amp may not be fair.

 

If you need a volume boost i would just automate the amps channel volume or output block to reflect those changes. A little more hassle for sure, but adding "level" to the front end of a distorted amp isnt going to give you any more volume.

[jbright44]

I guess with real amps I'm so used to having to play cleanish because of volume I've never really been able to crank the amps up.

[HonestOpinion]

I have not tested to see if the ba

 

Curious if anyone else notices this too. If I got an amp that's set up kind of edge of break up or a little crunchy, when I put an od block in front of it, no matter how much I turn up the level, I don't ever seem to get any appreciable overall volume increase at the output. The amp blocks responds like an amp that is having the input kicked pretty hard but for some reason it doesn't seem like I get the volume boost I'm used to getting when you crank an od into a real amp or use a boost pedal. I'm always having to use either a channel volume or master volume increase or even a gain block on the output to get the kind of volume boost I'm after.

Any thoughts here?

 

I have not tested to see if this is the case but I agree with you that I would expect the volume coming out of the amp block to go up if I drove it with a higher level in a block before it. This is somewhat equivalent to using a hotter guitar pickup with a higher output. It should not matter if the amp is at the edge of breakup or not. An amp can be set to start breaking up by using the Drive parameter while the Master is still set relatively low and the amp still has way more gain on tap. Perhaps at the edge of breakup the volume increase would be less pronounced in some cases but ultimately, higher signal going in generally means higher signal going out. Maybe something is going on behind the scenes like you are using an amp block that is set to do some heavy compression, or maybe there is some innate leveling going on in the Helix to prevent digital clipping.

[jbright44]

I usually have the master 10 kind of thinking of it as a master "bypass" maybe that's my problem

[zooey]

Just to clarify, IMO the various gain/volume controls in Helix are named pretty counter-intuitively.

• Gain is preamp drive
  Current name isn't too bad, but Preamp Drive would be clearer.
• Master should be called Power Amp Drive
  Current name is very misleading, since all other gear I'm aware of uses the term Master to mean overall output volume, independent of the drive and volume of each channel. It doesn't affect the drive of any stage.
• Channel Volume should be called Output Volume
  This is just the output volume of the patch, doesn't affect drive at all. You know, like Master usually means :)

Not sure that's a direct answer to this question, but hopefully it helps make the overall architecture clearer.

[phil_m]

Just to clarify, IMO the various gain/volume controls in Helix are named pretty counter-intuitively.

• Gain is preamp drive

  Current name isn't too bad, but Preamp Drive would be clearer.

• Master should be called Power Amp Drive

  Current name is very misleading, since all other gear I'm aware of uses the term Master to mean overall output volume, independent of the drive and volume of each channel. It doesn't affect the drive of any stage.

• Channel Volume should be called Output Volume

  This is just the output volume of the patch, doesn't affect drive at all. You know, like Master usually means :)

Not sure that's a direct answer to this question, but hopefully it helps make the overall architecture clearer.

 

Well, "master volume" is pretty much an industry standard for the power amp volume control on amps... I actually think it would be more confusing if it were renamed. As far Gain, I guess it I can see it, although, again, kind of one of those industry standard term. I do hear you on Channel Volume, though. I think that's simply a holdover from previous Line 6 devices.

[zooey]

Well, "master volume" is pretty much an industry standard for the power amp volume control on amps... I actually think it would be more confusing if it were renamed. As far Gain, I guess it I can see it, although, again, kind of one of those industry standard term. I do hear you on Channel Volume, though. I think that's simply a holdover from previous Line 6 devices.

Yes, but typically master volume isn't really a drive control, it's output volume. Yes it's drive if the output stage is maxed out, but that's not typically the case in master volume amps.

 

In Helix, it's channel volume that fills that role, master means power amp drive.

[phil_m]

Yes, but typically master volume isn't really a drive control, it's output volume. Yes it's drive if the output stage is maxed out, but that's not typically the case in master volume amps.

 

In Helix, it's channel volume that fills that role, master means power amp drive.

 

Not really, because master volume is affecting the actual tube power stage - it's part of the modeling. So depending on the amp, the master volume may act more like a volume control, or it can add more saturation. It just depends on how the amp being modeled reacts.

 

Channel volume is just a volume control for the block. It's not part of the modeling.

[HonestOpinion]

Well, "master volume" is pretty much an industry standard for the power amp volume control on amps... I actually think it would be more confusing if it were renamed. As far Gain, I guess it I can see it, although, again, kind of one of those industry standard term. I do hear you on Channel Volume, though. I think that's simply a holdover from previous Line 6 devices.

 

Have to agree with all of this. "Drive"  is a pretty ubiquitous term in use in the industry. I also think "Drive" is actually a bit more descriptive than "Gain" as it sounds like "Overdrive" and as it is the control that represents driving the preamp stage harder that is essentially the effect it has. As stated "Master" is also pretty much an industry standard. I also agree that "Ch Vol" is confusing and has always seemed a bit redundant to me. It would seem like "Master" should not only act as a traditional "Master" volume control but also control the overall volume of the amp blocks relative to the other blocks. The level on the output block would then be used to increase the overall volume of a preset. I may be overlooking something though.

 

My main suggestion is still that the "Master" volume be moved to where the "Ch Vol" is on the first page of the amp block such that "Drive" and "Master" can easily be adjusted in relation to each other. The next Helix should have an additional encoder button to allow all the critical amp controls to be available at one time, much like a real amp.