Jtv-89f Palm Muting?

[ice9mike]

A little background on my setup. I have a dream rig consisting of a JTV-59, DT-25 combo amp, and POD HD500. I really like this setup and can dial in any number of usable sounds for our cover band, but I really miss a tremolo system. The JTV-89F seemed to be a perfect solution. I ordered one from the Dent n Scratch deals at Sweetwater and received a new JTV-89F on Friday. For the most part I really like the guitar. The neck is easy to play. It has a quality Floyd Rose, and I like the sound of the mag pickups. I can say for certain that the GraphTech Ghost piezo produces a fuller, wider sound; especially for the acoustic models.
 
My only real gripe is palm muting when playing with distortion. The ghost piezo system seems to be much more sensitive than the one on my JTV-59. It picks up the mechanical noise of the pick scraping the low E string much more. I can hear the same high frequency sound on my JTV59, but the 89F is much louder. I can dial out some of this sound by adjusting the pick orientation to the strings and moving my hand further back. This high frequency mechanical noise is completely gone when using the mag pickups.
 
My question is, how many of the JTV-89F owners are experiencing this?
 
I also noticed a lot more digital noise when using any distortion sound with the modeling on the JTV-89F. It just seems to be picking up a lot more incidental contact with the body and knobs of the guitar. It's not noticeable when playing, but it's there when the guitar is quite. Again my JTV-59 does not exhibit this nearly as much. Of course I can use a noise gate to cut this out completely.
 
Thank in advance for your input.
 
ice9mike

[daedae]

I haven't noticed anything in particular.  I have an 89F through an HD500 but just playing through M-Audio AV40s, and I've done a few times of switching back and forth between the mags and the Lester bridge model at least and my palm mutes sound pretty much the same on either pickup.  But I've read elsewhere on this forum that piezos may vary slightly, so it's possible that you have some that are a little more sensitive in certain frequency ranges?

[Rewolf48]

The modelling should be the same for the 59 and 89F, but while the modelling is software and the same, this is not true for the sensitivity of the piezos, and a bigger signal on the 89F as daedae says will give different response in modelling.  You can try using Workbench HD and turn down the string volumes globally which appears to apply before the modelling.  Then there seems to be a compression stage to catch signals that are too hot - it made a large difference to my 69 when I changed to 11s for the 2.0 Acoustics which were sounding compressed direct from the JTV and it might explain why you can hear the pick noise so much.

[ice9mike]

Thank you both for your replies. I will change the settings in Workbench to see if I can dial out that noise. If I have time I will make a recording to post on this thread.

 

Rework,

 

What did you adjust in workbench to fix the volume for your 11's? Was it a global volume decrease?

 

If there is a compression being applied, that would explain why you can hear the pick attack noise more clearly.

 

Thanks.

[Rewolf48]

See Page 12 "Adjusting Global String Levels" in http://line6.com/data/6/0a06434c5bcd520d3ab6261d4/application/pdf/Workbench%20HD%20Pilot's%20Guide%20-%20English%20(%20Rev%20A%20).pdf

[ice9mike]

I was able to isolate the noise to the low E string. Palm muting on the other strings produces no scraping noise. I adjusted the global volume of the low E string to -8.0 dB and that has reduced the noise, but it is still there. I am going to try some other experiments to see if I can isolate the noise further:

 

1.  Swap the low E string output with another cable to see if it follows the string. This should tell me if it is isolated to the saddle or internal electronics.

2.  Swap the low E and high E saddles. This should move the noisy saddle to a string that is not wrapped and should produce less noise.

 

I will update this thread when I have results.

[Rewolf48]

You could also try reflashing as per this thread http://line6.com/support/topic/3539-annoying-rattle-on-12-string-settings/

[ice9mike]

Here is the results from my testing:

 

-  I did try to reflash the 2.00 firmware as this seems to be the solution for several people. Unfortunately it did not remedy the issue

-  I swapped piezo pickup inputs with the 5th string. They feed separately into the control board so this was a very easy test. The noise moved to the 5th string (6th string became quite) which indicates that the piezos are fine.

 

So this seems to be an issue with the internal electronics which I am not qualified to fix. That's a bummer because I will have to send it back for repair or replacement. I will let you guys know how it turns out.

[snhirsch]

-  I swapped piezo pickup inputs with the 5th string. They feed separately into the control board so this was a very easy test. The noise moved to the 5th string (6th string became quite) which indicates that the piezos are fine.

 

Huh?  If the problem followed the pickup then how do you come to the conclusion that the piezo is ok?

[ice9mike]

Huh?  If the problem followed the pickup then how do you come to the conclusion that the piezo is ok?

The problem jumped from the 6th to the 5th string when I swapped the internal cables, therefore the problem is with the signal path on the internal electronics.

[snhirsch]

Ack, sorry.  I read your posting too quickly.  I thought you physically switched the pickups :-)

 

So, yes, I agree it's probably not the pickup itself.

[soerlema]

Here is the results from my testing:

 

-  I did try to reflash the 2.00 firmware as this seems to be the solution for several people. Unfortunately it did not remedy the issue

-  I swapped piezo pickup inputs with the 5th string. They feed separately into the control board so this was a very easy test. The noise moved to the 5th string (6th string became quite) which indicates that the piezos are fine.

 

So this seems to be an issue with the internal electronics which I am not qualified to fix. That's a bummer because I will have to send it back for repair or replacement. I will let you guys know how it turns out.

 

Hi ice9mike,

 

I bought a JTV-89 today, and I seem to have the exact same problem you describe with the low E piezo. It makes a horrible 'chirp' when palm muting, and the output is much lower than the other strings. Was it ever fixed? And do you know what the problem was in the end?

 

Thanks!

Sam.

[ice9mike]

After two trips to Line 6 it was never fixed and I was told it was normal by the line 6 techs. The techs at Sweetwater definitely heard my issue and eventually took it back. I got a JTV-69 instead which I am very happy with. I would suggest you take it back and get one without the issue. It's hard to describe the sound until you hear it, but now you know what to look for. Good luck.

[clay-man]

After two trips to Line 6 it was never fixed and I was told it was normal by the line 6 techs. The techs at Sweetwater definitely heard my issue and eventually took it back. I got a JTV-69 instead which I am very happy with. I would suggest you take it back and get one without the issue. It's hard to describe the sound until you hear it, but now you know what to look for. Good luck.

 

One of the annoying and outlandish things in the warranty, or somewhere, is where Line 6 states "tone is subjective" as a defense to a guitar sounding off.

 

Tone is very much subjective, but the fact that the guitar is making a tone that it wasn't designed to, isn't about tone at all, it's about a guitar with a problem.

 

Saying "Not all guitars are the same" when the guitar is making a honking noise while everyone else's isn't, isn't a valid excuse to dismissing a guitar with a sound issue.

 

I'm glad Sweetwater recognized this issue and helped to resolve it.

[Rocco_Crocco]

M JTV59 has the same problem. Palm-muting the low E in Variax mode is a no-go. Next string change I am going to try nickel strings (DR Pure Blues) which are supposely less bright. I am curious to see if this fixes the issue.

 

Last week I rolled back to Variax version 1.9 and the problem went away, but yesterday I reflashed to 2.21 because the models sound better overall.

[soerlema]

Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for your replies.

 

I did some tests today, including the one that ice9mike did (swapping the connectors between 5th and 6th string). This made the problem on the low E go away completely and to some extend it was audible on the A.

This proves indeed that the problem is after the piezos.

I also took the A string off and put a .042 in place and tuned it to E, so I had two the same E's as the 5th and 6th string. 6th obviously had the chirp/pling problem, 5th not. When I switched the connector on the controller board around, the problem stayed on the 6th, but much less. 5th had no real problem.

This is contradictive because it does indicate a faulty piezo.

Maybe it's a combination of things.

In all cases the piezo on the 6th saddle gives less output than the others.

 

I was physically going to swap saddles, but since I'm only owning the guitar for a day, I'm going to return it and test another one. The only thing I'm a bit afraid of is the setup of the guitar. I tested 3 JTV-89's on Saturday in the store. Only the one I eventually took had a really great action and overall feel. I hope I can get the same feel on the new one I might be getting.

 

I will let you know what happens.

 

 

Sam.

[Palico]

My question is, how many of the JTV-89F owners are experiencing this?

 

+1 89F the modeling is really quackly sounding and can be thin. I've been thinking of going back to 1.9 firmware as the models just sounded thicker there. Hate to lose the HD but seems there is no solution, I keep watching these threads in case anyone finds something but nothing so far seems to help much. I love my 89f on the mag side thought otherwise I would have ditch the guitar.

[clay-man]

+1 89F the modeling is really quackly sounding and can be thin. I've been thinking of going back to 1.9 firmware as the models just sounded thicker there. Hate to lose the HD but seems there is no solution, I keep watching these threads in case anyone finds something but nothing so far seems to help much. I love my 89f on the mag side thought otherwise I would have ditch the guitar.

 

Out of all the guitars to get this problem, I least expected the 89F since it's a graphtech bridge, but anything can happen. They're not the same as the ghost pickups you can order anyways.

[Palico]

Out of all the guitars to get this problem, I least expected the 89F since it's a graphtech bridge, but anything can happen. They're not the same as the ghost pickups you can order anyways.

 

I really don't think it's the Piezos so much, I think it's the new Variax HD, particular over a DT amp. Over headphone on full models it's not as noticable.  And they are "Quacky" but not horrible. It's workable, but I've been sticking to the Mag much more often except for when need an alternate tuning or an Acoustic model.

[soerlema]

Hi guys,

 

Just to inform you. I swapped the high e saddle with the low E (just for testing) and still had the same problem.

I swapped it back and decided to go test another JTV 89F at the store. This one didn't have the problem at all.

So I exchanged the guitar and I'm very happy with it now. 

 

Sam.

[ice9mike]

Hi guys,

 

Just to inform you. I swapped the high e saddle with the low E (just for testing) and still had the same problem.

I swapped it back and decided to go test another JTV 89F at the store. This one didn't have the problem at all.

So I exchanged the guitar and I'm very happy with it now. 

 

Sam.

 

I'm glad you were able to work it out. Returning the faulty guitar is the only solution for this problem.

[scorpdude]

This sounds very similar to my issue I discovered last night on my new JTV-89F. When using any of the models, I hear not a scraping noise, but what sounds like a warbling flubby pitchy tone in at a frequency different than whatever tuning I am using. I'll test it more when I get home, but last night this appeared to be happening only on the A string and only when palm muting. When I'm in one of the drop tunings, it sounds as if I'm hearing the standard A pitch, along with whatever tuning I am in. It might not be the actual, A, but that was my first thought when I heard it. So annoying...

[cruisinon2]

It might not be the actual, A, but that was my first thought when I heard it. So annoying...

If you're referring to the drop D or drop Db tunings, then you're not imagining it. Crosstalk is most definitely an issue with these tunings. The problem is that when palm-muting, some vibrations are propagated through your hand to adjacent strings that your palm comes in contact with. So if you're chunking away on the A string while resting on the low E, some of those vibrations are going to make their way to the low E piezo saddle, and then get de-tuned. As one would expect, the result is mud...you're hearing two notes a whole step apart. Not exactly what I'd call a pleasant harmony. Higher gain tones seem to make it worse.

 

I did some rather extensive troubleshooting a while back to figure this out...there's a thread around here somewhere.

 

If you want to prove it to yourself, turn the A string volume to zero in Workbench, then play some palm-muted stuff on the A string, while resting your hand on the low E (it's pretty much impossible NOT to do this anyway...well, very difficult at least, unless you're a contortionist) I guarantee you will hear those notes coming through anyway, and with the A string's volume at zero, there's only one explanation for how it's happening...crosstalk.

 

Unfortunately, it's simply a limitation of the technology at this point. I've made my peace with it. If I want to play in drop D, I grab another guitar.

[scorpdude]

Cruisin... Wow thanks for the info. I haven't had a chance to check it for myself, but everything you said makes sense. Is this something unique to the 89? had the 59, but was never in a position to notice this limitation. Would you (or anyone) happen to know if this is present in the 69? I really like the versatility of these guitars for live applications, but this is a deal breaker for me :(

[cruisinon2]

Cruisin... Wow thanks for the info. I haven't had a chance to check it for myself, but everything you said makes sense. Is this something unique to the 89? had the 59, but was never in a position to notice this limitation. Would you (or anyone) happen to know if this is present in the 69? I really like the versatility of these guitars for live applications, but this is a deal breaker for me :(

I have the 69, so they're definitely not immune. It wouldn't surprise me if some individual instruments are better than others...lots of things contribute to how a guitar resonates. The various JTV bridge designs may be more or less prone to it as well. I couldn't say, as I've only had the one 69. The amount of gain is definitely a factor also, as is your playing style. The more gain the worse it gets...the guys who swear that they don't have this issue I suspect don't play with much gain. I can use the drop D tuning with a clean tone, no palm-muted chugging, and arpeggiate chords all day long without hearing anything funky. For the heavy stuff, if you can manage to avoid the low E string, the dissonance will go away. Trouble is that's easier said than done, at least for me.

 

Bear in mind, this is only going to occur with alt. tunings that are altering some strings and leaving others alone, or in some open tunings where different strings are being altered by different intervals. I use the 1/2 step down tuning all the time with no problems...as long as each string is being de-tuned by the same interval, any mechanical coupling that's going on won't matter because even if one string's vibrations are reaching more than piezo saddle, they're both being changed to the same pitch, so it's a non-issue. I find that the Eb tuning tracks quite well, and I use it a lot, even live...if I were constantly getting simultaneous pitches a 1/2 step apart, I think the guys in the band would have said something by now. There's no way that kind of dissonance would go unnoticed.

 

Anyway, the point is that some of the alt. tunings are pretty good...others not so much. There are a bunch of factors, and the problems really aren't "bugs" or "defects"...just the inevitable consequence of piezo pickups. When somebody designs a pickup that can isolate each string, but doesn't rely on physical contact with the pickup, then the alt. tunings should be as close to flawless as anything ever gets. Is it possible? Who knows...

[MiroslavKloud]

Solving the problem with the low E string is:

 

http://www.line6.com/support/topic/6764-do-you-have-the-same-problem-with-6th-string/page-7