FRFR112 vs DT25 vs Tweaker 15/112

[rd2rk]

Looking for advice from players experienced at public performance. Help me decide!

 

My Performance experience (since 1963) has always been on bass, though I've always dabbled at guitar.

Since I've been retired I've had time to play more guitar, and I'm starting to imagine myself getting good enough to look for people to jam with - rock, blues, psychedelic stoner ambient craziness (second childhood?).

 

I have a Helix Floor and a Stomp. I've been playing guitar and bass through an FRFR112.

I should note that I live in an apartment and 75db in the afternoon is about all I feel good about inflicting on my very tolerant neighbors (they tell me they LIKE my playing!).

 

The FRFR112 sounds GREAT with bass, not so good with guitar. It doesn't sound BAD, but there's an upper end raspiness on overdriven/hi-gain tones that I THINK is a result of the tweeter, and it defies all attempts to eq it out.

 

This has led to G.A.S. for an old school tube amp, which I've never used for guitar.

I happened upon a used Eganator Tweaker 15/112 combo at a GC in Grand Rapids, where I'm going for a family thing in July. It sounded like just what I'm looking for, and after reading the 4 part thread over on TGP (I know all about the reliability issues), decided to go for it. I'll try it out on my family with the Stomp and see if I like it.

 

There's also a used DT25 available at a GC in NC. Since 2.8 (with my Floor) will be able to fully support it's features, that's tempting too.

 

Opinions, advice, warnings, especially from tube amp and DT users, would be much appreciated.

 

Thanks All!

[lefttygtr]

Well since you already have a Helix and stomp I would say a decent to good frfr would be the way to go. I used to play my Helix through an Alto 112 with great success. The DT or the tweeker would be a great choice if you were useing the Hx effects and wanted a good clean tube amp to put it through. I actually do that useing my DT25 and running the Hx effects 4cm into the amp. I personally find I like a tube amp feel and sound and the Hx effects gives me all the other options. While the Helix sounded great through phones, through the frfr it was ok but just lacked in some aspects for me, one specific was the amp in the room sound and getting feedback. One thing to remember is when you are playing live most people won’t be able to tell the difference, as long as the songs are tight you will be fine.

[Kilrahi]

1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

I happened upon a used Eganator Tweaker 15/112 combo at a GC in Grand Rapids, where I'm going for a family thing in July. It sounded like just what I'm looking for, and after reading the 4 part thread over on TGP (I know all about the reliability issues), decided to go for it. I'll try it out on my family with the Stomp and see if I like it.

 

There's also a used DT25 available at a GC in NC. Since 2.8 (with my Floor) will be able to fully support it's features, that's tempting too.

 

Opinions, advice, warnings, especially from tube amp and DT users, would be much appreciated.

 

 

 

Hmmmm . . . I really loved the FRFR result which was why I bailed on the tube approach. 

 

WAIT! Stick with me!

 

With that said, my first advice would be that if you already loved the Eganator use it - I mean, you had a connection with it! That's the most important part. 

 

Still, I ALMOST bought the DT25 back in the day. I was very close because it was just an amazing idea and more importantly, sound (IMO). If I hadn't fallen for the flat response system, that's the amp I'd own.  Especially once 2.8 comes out in 2027, it'll be sweet what you can do with it. 

[rd2rk]

14 minutes ago, lefttygtr said:

Well since you already have a Helix and stomp I would say a decent to good frfr would be the way to go. I used to play my Helix through an Alto 112 with great success. The DT or the tweeker would be a great choice if you were useing the Hx effects and wanted a good clean tube amp to put it through. I actually do that useing my DT25 and running the Hx effects 4cm into the amp. I personally find I like a tube amp feel and sound and the Hx effects gives me all the other options. While the Helix sounded great through phones, through the frfr it was ok but just lacked in some aspects for me, one specific was the amp in the room sound and getting feedback. One thing to remember is when you are playing live most people won’t be able to tell the difference, as long as the songs are tight you will be fine.

 

I've been using the Helix through an FRFR112, which is just an Alto TS312 sans preamp. Great for bass, not so good for guitar.

 

How is your DT25 at the 10watt setting?

[rd2rk]

4 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

 

 

Hmmmm . . . I really loved the FRFR result which was why I bailed on the tube approach. 

 

WAIT! Stick with me!

 

With that said, my first advice would be that if you already loved the Eganator use it - I mean, you had a connection with it! That's the most important part. 

 

Still, I ALMOST bought the DT25 back in the day. I was very close because it was just an amazing idea and more importantly, sound (IMO). If I hadn't fallen for the flat response system, that's the amp I'd own.  Especially once 2.8 comes out in 2027, it'll be sweet what you can do with it. 

 

Seems logical that FRFR would be the way to go with Helix, and clean stuff sounds fine. It's just the overdriven/hi-gain sounds that have that annoying (to my ears) raspiness that no amount of eq tweaking seems to cure.

 

Don't actually have the Egnator yet, I'll get to do a trial-by-fire with it in 2 weeks when I'm in MI.

 

If I don't like it, I might try a DT25, if I can find a good used one, and if my continuing research doesn't turn up any serious negatives. Or, if I find overwhelming positives....

[rvroberts]

Strange - but I suspect what you are using is perfectly OK.

Strange because no one seems to be pointing at the usual culprit when it comes to harsh guitar sounds.

High and low cuts.

For guitar - to emulate the EQ of guitar speaker boxes - Set the high cut (on the speaker or IR) to be say 5K and the low cut to be say 100Hz.

Problem solved I'm betting??

Don't need anything else. (well you can then tweak your overall EQ to taste with any EQ block you like last in the chain).

[PDKTDK]

 

6 minutes ago, rvroberts said:

Strange - but I suspect what you are using is perfectly OK.

Strange because no one seems to be pointing at the usual culprit when it comes to harsh guitar sounds.

High and low cuts.

For guitar - to emulate the EQ of guitar speaker boxes - Set the high cut (on the speaker or IR) to be say 5K and the low cut to be say 100Hz.

Problem solved I'm betting??

Don't need anything else. (well you can then tweak your overall EQ to taste with any EQ block you like last in the chain).

 

Have you tried a DT25 or 50?

[rd2rk]

24 minutes ago, rvroberts said:

Strange - but I suspect what you are using is perfectly OK.

Strange because no one seems to be pointing at the usual culprit when it comes to harsh guitar sounds.

High and low cuts.

For guitar - to emulate the EQ of guitar speaker boxes - Set the high cut (on the speaker or IR) to be say 5K and the low cut to be say 100Hz.

Problem solved I'm betting??

Don't need anything else. (well you can then tweak your overall EQ to taste with any EQ block you like last in the chain).

 

Like I said, no amount of eq, cuts, whatever, gets rid of it. I've been around here a long time, and I've tried all the suggestions including different cab cuts with different amps/speakers/mics/distances and IRs including OH, Rosen, 3Sigma and many variations from the Redwirz BIG BOX collection. Clean sounds are great, but as soon as I get into overdriven sounds, it's right there. All our ears are different of course, and it could well be that some people LIKE that sound. I hate it. I keep going back to the tweeter in the FRFR because I don't really notice it when I record, and it's not as pronounced when I play direct through my Rokit6 studio monitors.

[rd2rk]

31 minutes ago, PDKTDK said:

 

 

Have you tried a DT25 or 50?

 

DT25 is on the table, which is why I'm asking for personal experiences with them. Have you tried them?

[rvroberts]

I still got to say that if running it through a pretty average guitar amp gives you what you want, then you need to revisit cuts - it's a tonal thing or a fault with your FRFR system.

If it's the FRFR, then you should hear it on clean sounds.  Nasty distortion and good cleans points to speaker emulation (giving the thing a restricted frequency response like a guitar amp does). 5K is what looks like extreme EQ till you try it.

You can still get really HiFi sounding super Fender type crystal cleans with a 5K cut - and then you go - Oh, so guitars sound good with a hell of a lot of frequencies removed.

Now you can say our ears are different - and I won't argue, Had mine tested to know - but even top pros like Pete Thorn who has his own custom range of Suhr amps admits he often uses live and records with emulation and the Helix is one of those tools he uses.

It does not seem logical to stand against a lot of serious pros and say you can't get great overdrive sounds out of the Helix without connecting it to a guitar amp.

You have to think, am I missing something?

I personally don't like the Line 6 series of amps like the DT25 - so that might help you ignore me if you like!

But I used to run 2 x Vox AC15s in stereo till I got the Helix.  I have owned and recorded with a range of Marshalls etc.  It's the past!

[rd2rk]

4 minutes ago, rvroberts said:

Nasty distortion and good cleans points to speaker emulation (giving the thing a restricted frequency response like a guitar amp does). 5K is what looks like extreme EQ till you try it.

 

I know you mean well, and I appreciate your attempt to help, but you're putting words in my mouth and misinterpreting what I'm saying.

 

I never said anything about "nasty distortion". I'm not talking about fizziness or squirrels or any other form of digital wildlife. I'm saying that there's a kind of "graininess(?)" to the overdriven sounds that is not like anything I've heard from real world guitar amps. I don't think that it's inherent in the Helix's sound, I think that it's related to the way that my particular FRFR speakers handle that sound. I've tried EQ cuts down to 5k which seem to me to take away something from the "liveliness" of the sound, and doing a scientific study of how to get that sound out of every piece of equipment modeled in the Helix is in any case not a rabbit hole that I'm willing to go further down. I'm ready to try something different. If I run the Helix through a real tube guitar amp and the overdriven sounds STILL don't sound right, and the amp's native overdrive sounds that way too, then I'll have to admit that it's my ears that are the problem, and I'll learn to live with the sound that everybody else thinks is natural, because maybe it is, and I'm crazy! I'm totally open to the possibility that I'm crazy. I once bought a Blackstar HT5R Combo because every reviewer LOVED the overdrive channel. I thought it sounded like a dried out turd sliding down a sand dune! I COULD be crazy. After all, I AM primarily a bass player! And I HATE distortion on bass!

 

Oh, and no fair calling the Pete Thorn card. Dude could plug into a transistor radio in a garbage can and make it sound good.

[Kilrahi]

37 minutes ago, rvroberts said:

I still got to say that if running it through a pretty average guitar amp gives you what you want, then you need to revisit cuts - it's a tonal thing or a fault with your FRFR system.

If it's the FRFR, then you should hear it on clean sounds.  Nasty distortion and good cleans points to speaker emulation (giving the thing a restricted frequency response like a guitar amp does). 5K is what looks like extreme EQ till you try it.

You can still get really HiFi sounding super Fender type crystal cleans with a 5K cut - and then you go - Oh, so guitars sound good with a hell of a lot of frequencies removed.

Now you can say our ears are different - and I won't argue, Had mine tested to know - but even top pros like Pete Thorn who has his own custom range of Suhr amps admits he often uses live and records with emulation and the Helix is one of those tools he uses.

It does not seem logical to stand against a lot of serious pros and say you can't get great overdrive sounds out of the Helix without connecting it to a guitar amp.

You have to think, am I missing something?

I personally don't like the Line 6 series of amps like the DT25 - so that might help you ignore me if you like!

But I used to run 2 x Vox AC15s in stereo till I got the Helix.  I have owned and recorded with a range of Marshalls etc.  It's the past!

 

I don't know. When people don't get it I'm confused too, but rd2rk has been around here long enough to see the endless advice to "Cut, cut, cut, and cut!" some more. 

 

If it was going to work for him it would have done so already. Best thing is to give him advice if possible on another alternative. 

[rd2rk]

8 minutes ago, Kilrahi said:

 

I don't know. When people don't get it I'm confused too, but rd2rk has been around here long enough to see the endless advice to "Cut, cut, cut, and cut!" some more. 

 

If it was going to work for him it would have done so already. Best thing is to give him advice if possible on another alternative. 

 

Thank you!

 

There's a used DT25 at a GC that I might try if the Egnator doesn't work out. Only negative I've seen is the weight - 47 lbs! But then, I do deadlifts at 250 3 times a week, and can pull 310 once on a good day, so what's 47 lbs if it sounds good? I'm waiting to hear from someone about how it sounds at the 10watt low volume setting, 'cause I know that using it at 25 watts at home WILL get me evicted!

[DunedinDragon]

2 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

I'm saying that there's a kind of "graininess(?)" to the overdriven sounds that is not like anything I've heard from real world guitar amps. I don't think that it's inherent in the Helix's sound, I think that it's related to the way that my particular FRFR speakers handle that sound. I've tried EQ cuts down to 5k which seem to me to take away something from the "liveliness" of the sound, and doing a scientific study of how to get that sound out of every piece of equipment modeled in the Helix is in any case not a rabbit hole that I'm willing to go further down. I'm ready to try something different. If I run the Helix through a real tube guitar amp and the overdriven sounds STILL don't sound right, and the amp's native overdrive sounds that way too, then I'll have to admit that it's my ears that are the problem, and I'll learn to live with the sound that everybody else thinks is natural, because maybe it is, and I'm crazy! I'm totally open to the possibility that I'm crazy. I once bought a Blackstar HT5R Combo because every reviewer LOVED the overdrive channel. I thought it sounded like a dried out turd sliding down a sand dune! I COULD be crazy. After all, I AM primarily a bass player! And I HATE distortion on bass!

 

 

There are a couple of things that occur to me.  One is how you're positioned relative to the FRFR112.  On the bass it might not be as relevant, but what you might be experiencing is simply being physically too close to the FRFR112.  With the Bass it might not be as much of a problem, but powered speakers by their nature need a bit of physical space from them in order to sound normal and allow the speaker and horn to blend correctly.  Imagine the difference in sound sitting right next to PA speaker in a nightclub versus sitting in the middle of the room.  Generally when dialing in my tones at home through my DXR12 I give myself a good 6 to 8 feet from the speaker and often stand with my back to it or off axis  to get an accurate read on how it really sounds generally.

Another thing that occurs to me is you mentioned different cabs, mics, and mic placements, but the biggest difference maker in my experience is the mic mix.  Since this is mostly limited to overdriven sounds I'd recommend trying the Ownhammer mix ending in OH2 or OH2F at various distances and see if that cures the problem.  Those are a blend of an MD421 dynamic mic and R121 ribbon mic that seems, to my ear, to be the most natural blend for higher gain tones.  Since you're still relatively new to the guitar side of things also try bringing down the gain a bit on your amps.  You probably need less than you think.  Adding an LA2 compressor at the end of the signal chain can also also help the sound blend a bit better.

Just some thought too consider.

[PDKTDK]

5 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

DT25 is on the table, which is why I'm asking for personal experiences with them. Have you tried them?

 

Sorry Sir.  I have two DT 50's.  I am using a midi cable to get the functionality we will soon have via L6 LINK. It's so great. Based on feedback I am getting....enviable even.  Getting tones of all flavors (high to low gain) is easy.  I can't state enough how excellent my results have been.  I also go straight to FOH at times with FR speaker and it's very good.  The DT Helix combo... Heaven.  I think when you try the comparison you will agree. I can't wait to hear your thoughts.

 

I've been waiting for this discussion to come up with 2.8 (DT L6 Link functionality) around the corner.  I was going to start one but I'm not one of the cool kids so me starting a thread here rarely generates much discussion.

[rd2rk]

1 hour ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

There are a couple of things that occur to me.  One is how you're positioned relative to the FRFR112.  On the bass it might not be as relevant, but what you might be experiencing is simply being physically too close to the FRFR112.  With the Bass it might not be as much of a problem, but powered speakers by their nature need a bit of physical space from them in order to sound normal and allow the speaker and horn to blend correctly.  Imagine the difference in sound sitting right next to PA speaker in a nightclub versus sitting in the middle of the room.  Generally when dialing in my tones at home through my DXR12 I give myself a good 6 to 8 feet from the speaker and often stand with my back to it or off axis  to get an accurate read on how it really sounds generally.

Another thing that occurs to me is you mentioned different cabs, mics, and mic placements, but the biggest difference maker in my experience is the mic mix.  Since this is mostly limited to overdriven sounds I'd recommend trying the Ownhammer mix ending in OH2 or OH2F at various distances and see if that cures the problem.  Those are a blend of an MD421 dynamic mic and R121 ribbon mic that seems, to my ear, to be the most natural blend for higher gain tones.  Since you're still relatively new to the guitar side of things also try bringing down the gain a bit on your amps.  You probably need less than you think.  Adding an LA2 compressor at the end of the signal chain can also also help the sound blend a bit better.

Just some thought too consider.

 

Good thoughts as always, DD!

 

Certainly, listening position relative to the speaker makes a big difference. The FRFR112 def sounds better across the room where the blend of woofer/tweeter comes together, and a bit off axis makes it less harsh. But the sound I'm talking about is still there. I wish I could describe it better than "grainy", it's kind of like the opposite of "creamy". :-)

 

Using cuts and different mics, distances, and the cross speaker/off axis IRs that are in the Redwirz package improve the overall sound, but the sound that bothers me is still there. One of those things where once you hear it you can't un-hear it? I dunno, but I'm definitely through with the IR rabbit hole, they all have their uses, but they don't solve my problem, and I'd rather play my guitar - I'm getting better, but still have a long way to go!

 

As for the overdrive amount, less overdrive works, in fact, clean tones are perfect, and sound really good through the FRFR112. But overdrive is one of those things that enough is enough, too much or not enough is pointless. When I listen to most modern metal, the only difference I hear in the guitar sound from one band to the next is more or less TMB. I can't tell a Strat from a LP! Too much of a good thing is a bad thing. My problem is that more than a little crunch brings on that annoying sound!

 

The LA2 at the end of the chain is one of the best tips I got out of the Jason Sadites vids, but no, not the solution.

 

Like I said in an earlier post, I could be crazy. I'll try the tube amp guitar cab thing, maybe a DT25 or a powercab. The choice is complicated by living in an apartment. Whatever the solution turns out to be, it has to sound decent at <75-80db, which brings our old friends Fletcher-Munson into the picture. AARGH!

 

[rd2rk]

25 minutes ago, PDKTDK said:

 

Sorry Sir.  I have two DT 50's.  I am using a midi cable to get the functionality we will soon have via L6 LINK. It's so great. Based on feedback I am getting....enviable even.  Getting tones of all flavors (high to low gain) is easy.  I can't state enough how excellent my results have been.  I also go straight to FOH at times with FR speaker and it's very good.  The DT Helix combo... Heaven.  I think when you try the comparison you will agree. I can't wait to hear your thoughts.

 

I've been waiting for this discussion to come up with 2.8 (DT L6 Link functionality) around the corner.  I was going to start one but I'm not one of the cool kids so me starting a thread here rarely generates much discussion.

 

 The DT25 sounds like a great amp, and if the Egnator doesn't work out, I'll probably try that or a Powercab next.

 

With two DT50s, it's probably silly to ask how the low volume setting sounds? :-)

[DunedinDragon]

11 minutes ago, rd2rk said:

 

Certainly, listening position relative to the speaker makes a big difference. The FRFR112 def sounds better across the room where the blend of woofer/tweeter comes together, and a bit off axis makes it less harsh. But the sound I'm talking about is still there. I wish I could describe it better than "grainy", it's kind of like the opposite of "creamy". :-)

 

 

AHA!!!  I think you're describing too much articulation..ie the strings of the chords don't blend together as much as you'd like, which is often the case with powered speakers and even studio monitors sometimes.  I personally like that sound, but if you don't try changing the BIAS. In my experience some amps are more in need of BIAS adjustments than others.  You even might mess a bit with SAG to even things out a bit more.

[PDKTDK]

1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

The FRFR112 def sounds better across the room...

Personally I get that from amps to.  In a live setting I need to go about 20 feet out to appreciate how good my sounds are...or aren't. But mostly are since I got the Helix. 

 

1 hour ago, rd2rk said:

 

 The DT25 sounds like a great amp, and if the Egnator doesn't work out, I'll probably try that or a Powercab next.

 

With two DT50s, it's probably silly to ask how the low volume setting sounds? :-)

 

LOL Yeah.  I had the notorious power transformer issue which forced me to get a backup DT50.

 

The issue happened TWICE with the same amp. 

 

I just use one at a time and they have an XLR line level output to go to the board.  In all these years I've never tried them in stereo/together oddly enough.  The DT's certainly put out the volume and for most of us offer more than you could ever need.

 

I hope you at least try it. 

 

That said I am following this thread. I'm open to change and if there is a solution with no tube amp risks or maintenance but comparable quality....I could be persuaded to make a change.  I just don't believe it's possible.  

[rd2rk]

6 hours ago, PDKTDK said:

LOL Yeah.  I had the notorious power transformer issue which forced me to get a backup DT50.

 

The issue happened TWICE with the same amp. 

 

I'm sure that the DT25 would provide more than enough volume for my needs. I hadn't heard about a "notorious power transformer problem". Since that is also a problem with the Egnators I'd be interested to learn more about it.

 

Actually, the "low volume setting" I was referring to is this, from the manual:

 

"15. Low Volume Mode - If you need to tame your DT25 power section,
set this switch to ON to reduce your the output volume of your DT25.
Now you can set your Master Volume for whisper quiet operation."

 

It's on the back panel - maybe the DT50 doesn't have this? Living in an apartment, this could be useful. The Egnators have a "Modern" mode switch which boosts the high and low frequencies, which is where you lose tone at lower volumes due to the Fletcher-Munson effect, and at higher volumes it gives more of a "Boogie" type sound. I'm guessing that the "Low Volume" switch on the DT25 does something similar, but more directly aimed at playing at lower volumes.

[rd2rk]

7 hours ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

AHA!!!  I think you're describing too much articulation..ie the strings of the chords don't blend together as much as you'd like, which is often the case with powered speakers and even studio monitors sometimes.  I personally like that sound, but if you don't try changing the BIAS. In my experience some amps are more in need of BIAS adjustments than others.  You even might mess a bit with SAG to even things out a bit more.

 

Like most users, I haven't delved too deeply into those settings. They don't seem to affect the sound I'm talking about, but I definitely should look into it some more, as it's more pronounced on chords than single notes, and occurs on both the FRFR112 and, to a lesser extent, on my studio monitors. Thanks!

[PDKTDK]

3 hours ago, rd2rk said:

It's on the back panel - maybe the DT50 doesn't have this?

 

The DT50 also has the low volume mode feature. It's not on the back though.  You simply pull out the Master Volume switch. I always thought it was the same for the DT25.  It turns power amp MODELLING on versus the tube power amp section (or in addition since at low volumes you're not really pushing the tubes).  Actually if you're going only going to use low power mode maybe you don't need these beasts.  Might as well get a PowerCab.

 

You' may want separate patches for low volume mode versus high.  Although with the Helix I find adjusting for these scenarios not as laborious as the HD500 days.  

 

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and final decision as well as the feedback of some others.

 

The DT50's of a certain serial number range were frequently blowing power transformers. Even outside of the warranty period they fixed mine,  So obviously L6 owned a serious manufacturing issue.  I'm very grateful they fixed it. 

[waymda]

Hi

 

I've been using Line6 E2E for a while now and used the following combinations (historical order):

• m13 into tweaker 15 head and various speaker arrangements
• HD500x into same
• HD500x with DT25 combo and a DT50 head and 2x12 cab
• HD500x into JC120
• Helix into 2 x Laney IRT-x
• Helix into PowerCab+
• Helix into DT25

The last 3 are the most relevant to you. 

 

The IRT-X were fine for stage monitoring for my band members with in-ears for me - they also worked well for low volume practice at home (not that they couldn't get loud, but not needed).

 

The PowerCab+ totally changed my view of the IRT-x - I got back a more natural sound.  My band said it was like going from a high-fi sound back to a real amp.

 

The DT25 sounds great but I've hardly used it and not with a band.  I'm looking forward to 2.8 and full integration with the Helix, and getting my PowerCab+ with it (I'm currently in Melbourne Australia and its in Perth Australia due to a work relocate) so I can mix and match a real amp and guitar speaker with modeled amp and speakers (The PowerCab+ modelling), and the option of switching to FRFR on the PC+ for acoustic and/or weird clean ambient type effects.

 

I wonder if what you're hearing is, in part, that whole mic'd up cab thing that bugs so many people using modelling.  In which case the DT25 or the PowerCab (or both) should alleviate that.

 

The HD500x into the tweaker was less than satisfying as the modelling into, what seemed a good amp tone, didn't work - my favourite cab with it was a 2x12THD which made a loud and very articulate combo.  I couldn't be bothered with 4CM and it didn't last long as my rig.  Into the DT25 and DT50 was a great stereo rig, but lots to lug around, and lots of work balancing patch volumes - we tend to forget how much stage volumes colour tone and perceived loudness.  The JC120 was a compromise to get efficiency and ease of use, and was pretty good.

 

Regarding volume - the PC+ sounds good at lower volumes as does the DT25 with the quiet mode, but quiet mode is not super quiet.  I'm currently in an apartment and very conscious of volume to the point I avoid high gain sounds as I'm aware of how much they carry once you get them loud enough to have some grunt.  I suspect at very low volume they would sound crap as theirs not enough air being moved.  I have had the DT25 in a rehearsal room in normal mode and it was plenty loud with the master on half, and jammed with some guys in a small room with the master at about 1/3rd.

 

All I need to do now is completely rebuild my patches so I send signal out to digital with no speaker modelling for the DT25 (and PC+), and with Cabs on for the XLR outputs to go to FoH.  I monitor from the headphone out which taps the XLRs.  This is actually proving easier than I thought pretty quick once I got a basic workflow happening (including remembering to save!!!!).

 

Hope that helps.

[waymda]

Sorry, I forgot.  A word of caution with the DT25.

 

If you go that path, get the firmware checked and updated if necessary where you buy it.  The one I brought in Melbourne had the old firmware and I had to try 3 usb to midi interface to get one that Line6 Monkey liked enough to update it and then allow me to use DTEdit to clear a slot in the DT25 to make the Helix integrate easier (lots about his in the forums)

 

Not sure what firmware 2,8 will require and/or if it will provide the ability to update over the wire.

 

And I just realised I didnt even think to try the Helix as the midi interface, so can't help there.

[rd2rk]

58 minutes ago, waymda said:

I've been using Line6 E2E for a while now and used the following combinations (historical order):

• m13 into tweaker 15 head and various speaker arrangements
• HD500x into same
• HD500x with DT25 combo and a DT50 head and 2x12 cab
• HD500x into JC120
• Helix into 2 x Laney IRT-x
• Helix into PowerCab+
• Helix into DT25

 

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful reply!

 

A few question, if I may:

 

I take it that you liked the Tweaker's native sound. Apart from max volume and the obvious L6 integration features, how do you think it compared tone-wise to the DT25 as a straight-up amp? I'd be using whichever I get with Helix in 4cm, but on their own merits, how do they compare? 

I too had a HD500X. Now I have Helix. 'Nuff said.

JC40 is also in consideration, though I think they're a bit overpriced. The JC120 sounded good?

If forced to choose between the DT25 and the Powercab, which way would you go?

 

Sorry for all that, but it sounds like you've ridden the same mental-go-round as I'm currently on.

Appreciate your time!

 

[PDKTDK]

1 hour ago, waymda said:

Sorry, I forgot.  A word of caution with the DT25.

 

If you go that path, get the firmware checked and updated if necessary where you buy it.  The one I brought in Melbourne had the old firmware and I had to try 3 usb to midi interface to get one that Line6 Monkey liked enough to update it and then allow me to use DTEdit to clear a slot in the DT25 to make the Helix integrate easier (lots about his in the forums)

 

Not sure what firmware 2,8 will require and/or if it will provide the ability to update over the wire.

 

And I just realised I didnt even think to try the Helix as the midi interface, so can't help there.

 If you get the M-Audio usb to midi interface no one  should have a problem.   

[waymda]

>>PDKTDK - yep that's what I ended up getting, but really why so finicky?  (rhetorical question)

 

>>Rd2rk

 

I had enough time between using the tweaker and the DT25 (and it was so long ago - about 10 years) that I couldn't honestly say which I prefer.  The tweaker was more than loud enough with the THD cab - the speakers were very efficient and articulate,  but the cab cost more than twice the tweaker, and you're considering a combo so comparison wouldn't hold. 

 

As I didn't like the amp modelling through the tweaker the HD500x was only useful as a big effects unit - which defeats the purpose, and reduced the flexibility.  Flexibility is the main reason for me using modelling (now e2e) so the DT25 would beat the tweaker everytime  for the range of sounds.  Yes I could get some crap sounds out of that rig, but I also got lots of very good tones so a 1 to 1 comparison doesn't hold.  The difference moving to the Helix and a DT25 is I don't feel the need to keep tweaking patches forever - they get good quick and I leave them.

 

JC120 sounded good, it gave good stereo effects, but not with a huge spread unless using very hard left right type ping-pong stuff, and I could send a different amp to each speaker.  The speakers obviously colour the sound, but I could tune for that, and went in straight into the stereo power amp.  It lacked with acoustic tones, but that's to be expected.

 

I just remembered I'd even used a few valve power amp (2 different mesa and one Carvin) and speaker combos (single 12s, 2 x 12s, 4 x12s, 4x10s) with the HD500x, so lots and lots of gear changes and never quite getting there.  Getting a solid repeatedly good sound that I didn't want to tweak between gigs was the problem.

 

Forced to choose between the DT25 and the PC+ - the PC+ no question for the FRFR modes, the built in speaker modelling, and with 2.8 the ability to change with patches.  The DT25 was an opportunistic purchase ($700 AUD like new - under $500 USD), having moved with Helix and guitar on the flight and no amp.  But it will be fantastic with the PC+.

 

One thing I forgot to mention is that the PC+ and the DT25 brought back a real sense of guitar amp interaction, that stand in the right place and get sustain and the air moving behind you - I've always tilted back because I need top end bite, but found the FRFR wedges were just wrong.

 

To give a feel for why versatility is important to me, the last band I was in played covers with a rep of 150+ songs and I build a patch for each song that changes the guit (Variax) the amps the effects and ranges from acoustic sounds (Violent Fems) through mesa (Foo Fighters), with everything in between.

 

If I was back doing originals, like I started with 30+ years ago, I've often thought I'd go back to a nice valve amp and a couple of pedals, but I think I'd be more likely to stick with modelling.

 

Ramble ramble ramble :-)

 

 

[loonsailor]

I don't use an FRFR, 'cause I have an HX Effects that goes to an amp, so I have no direct experience.  But, I have listened to a couple of FRFR shootouts on YouTube, and have been surprised at how different the various cabinets sound.  To my ear (via unknown mic'ing, digitization, ...) the Powercab sounds better than most. Check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WteWgQ1lV8A and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjMsdts5F70

 

If you do want to use an amp, rather than an FRFR, you might check out the BluesCube line.  I really like mine.  It's solid state, so light and easy to carry, but it's voiced like a tube amp, not "modeled".  The cool thing for practice is that the output power is switchable, 0.5W, 15W, 45W or max.  In my basement, it sounds great on 0.5 W, and even some band practices I leave it there.  It's loud enough that it almost never goes above 15W.

 

[rd2rk]

Thought I'd update this thread.

 

The word "raspy" is like others applied to individual perceptions of sound - harsh, fizzy, creamy, chewy, etc. Subjective.

 

My TS210 crossover is at 2.5khz. The FRFR112 is worse - 2k.

 

After trying everything with eq, I bought the Tweaker. 1-12" speaker and FX Loop, Marshall, Vox and Fender tone stacks.

 

I got an insane deal on a NEW Tweaker 15 combo (GC price match to a MF "Stupid deal of the day). Same price as the used one.

 

Problem solved. I don't like the sound of the tweeter, that simple. With the Tweaker, using 4cm, I can use either the amp's preamp or the Helix preamps. No harsh, fizzy tweeter, and the Tweaker sounds really good on it's own or with the Helix amps/preamps. I can use a cab and eq on a separate path for approximate FOH tone matching with my Alto and FRFR112.

 

I decided on the Tweaker over a DT25 or Powercab because :

A) Price
B) Weight
C) K.I.S.S.

 

Then L6 released the Powercab+ 212. Instant G.A.S. If a financial windfall comes my way.....

 

I'd like to see a lightweight, high wattage two-way speaker with adjustable crossover AND tweeter level. AFAIK, that doesn't exist. At least, not in a product that I can afford.

 

Thanks to all for your helpful comments.