Studio monitors vs. power tubes and cab vs. Power pedal amp and cab

[Edward]

Hi, I'm new to amp modeling and I'm debating about getting the Helix Stomp.  I was wondering what is the best way to get the sound out if I want it to be as close to the modeled amp I'm going for. 

I was planning to bypass all the pre-amp section of my amp through the effects loop but I have a small tube amp with EL84 tubes and I was wondering if that will color the sound too much; the sound of the amps I like are loaded with EL34s no 84s.   I also have a cabinet with a Vintage 30 in it, I do like the sound of the cab but if I wanted to try other cabs, is there an IR to get a more EL34 (big power tube) sound out of it to get rid of the color?  And there is also the power amp pedals like the Magnun 44, the Seymour Duncan and the Bomb 30, are these pedals cleaner than the power section of a small amp?  

[Heavyville]

IR's  are not for use with an amp ( power amp). 

those are only for use when using FRFR / powered studio monitors etc.

 

the key is to think of the helix as modeling the polished tone of a recording or the tone of the amp rig through a certain microphone. 

 

when using an amp  with a guitar cab to power the tone you will generally only want to use the pre-amp section of the helix and no IR's. 

 

[Kilrahi]

So that's a lot of questions to unpack, and unfortunately, there's a lot of subjectivity if you start asking what is the "best" way to do anything.

 

If you peruse the posts on here you'[ll notice that there are rather regularly people who try the flat response speaker approach and it just does NOT cut it for them. So they switch to going into a regular amp, or the effects return of a regular amp, and then they get that "amp in the room" feel and are happy once again. Rucmas above is correct - if you go that approach, you don't use IRs or cab models in the Helix because your real amp's cab is already doing that.

 

Personally, I AM of the full range flat response speaker system approach to the HX line (Line 6's Powercab, Headrush's FRFR-112, and TONS of other worthy examples). I feel like that gives me the biggest and vastest canvas to pain on since it allows me to use whatever cab I want, IR I want - sky is the limit as long as it sounds good (and sometimes even when it sounds like lollipop). 

 

Where you already have an amp you like, I'd start with the plan you already have. See what you think of it. Then maybe in the future dip your toe out there with a reasonably priced flat response system and see what you think. 

[cruisinon2]

41 minutes ago, Edward said:

Hi, I'm new to amp modeling and I'm debating about getting the Helix Stomp.  I was wondering what is the best way to get the sound out if I want it to be as close to the modeled amp I'm going for. 

I was planning to bypass all the pre-amp section of my amp through the effects loop but I have a small tube amp with EL84 tubes and I was wondering if that will color the sound too much; the sound of the amps I like are loaded with EL34s no 84s.   I also have a cabinet with a Vintage 30 in it, I do like the sound of the cab but if I wanted to try other cabs, is there an IR to get a more EL34 (big power tube) sound out of it to get rid of the color?  And there is also the power amp pedals like the Magnun 44, the Seymour Duncan and the Bomb 30, are these pedals cleaner than the power section of a small amp?  

 

Your choice of a power source isn't nearly as much of an issue as the speaker(s). To really take advantage of what a modeler can do, requires a clean slate for the output. That means FRFR speakers, which guitar amps and cabs decidedly do not have.

 

Think of it this way... if you're using a Fender amp model and pumping it through a Marshall 4x12 with greenbacks, the end result is gonna be a whole lot more Marshall than Fender... the power source is almost irrelevant. Celestion greenbacks will never sound like anything but what they are.

 

This doesn't mean that you can't run Helix into a traditional amp and cab... many do and are happy with the results. But you won't be able to take advantage of everything Helix has to offer.

[Edward]

Thank you!    I guess I'll get the studio monitor headphones first to get a feel of what I'm missing.  Also are the FRFRs equivalent to Studio Monitor speakers?   I don't need tons of volume. 

 

[cruisinon2]

2 minutes ago, Edward said:

Thank you!    I guess I'll get the studio monitor headphones first to get a feel of what I'm missing.  Also are the FRFRs equivalent to Studio Monitor speakers?   I don't need tons of volume. 

 

 

No two output methods will sound identical, regardless of the specs. Comparing any set of headphones to studio monitors is difficult, simply because of proximity and relative volume. The cans are directly on top of your ears, and monitors are some distance away, and you're hearing not only the direct sound, but room reflections, etc... then there's the question of open or closed back headphones, the latter tending to have more pronounced bass response, etc etc... the list goes on.

 

Bottom line is you can expect to have to tweak things differently depending on how you're monitoring... sometimes the differences will be subtle, sometimes not. There's no one size fits all approach. It all depends on the kind of sound your looking for, and the individual pieces of gear in your rig.

[jonandtice]

9 minutes ago, Edward said:

Thank you!    I guess I'll get the studio monitor headphones first to get a feel of what I'm missing.  Also are the FRFRs equivalent to Studio Monitor speakers?   I don't need tons of volume. 

 

Studio Monitors are FRFR but usually when we talk about FRFR we are talking about PA system sized speakers (8", 10", 12").  The main difference is that studio monitors are near-field speakers (your ears are meant to be in front of them and are usually 4"-8" speakers).  My advise is that if you play at a desk, in front of a computer, go for studio monitors.  If you play in a practice space with other people go for FRFR.  A good set of headphones is a good place to start.

[Heavyville]

what studio monitors will you be using ?  I'd honestly start there.  Headphones are good, but they don;t always translate very well. You really need to know your headphones to get tones to sound good on other devices.  Loud is better, we are talking about the guitar. 

[Edward]

 I was thinking the Kali LP6, some other forums recommended the M-Audio ones. 

[Smj7]

8 hours ago, cruisinon2 said:

Think of it this way... if you're using a Fender amp model and pumping it through a Marshall 4x12 with greenbacks, the end result is gonna be a whole lot more Marshall than Fender... the power source is almost irrelevant. Celestion greenbacks will never sound like anything but what they are.

 

It’s funny you mention that.  My main pedalboard for years was based around two clean amps (in the Fender camp) and i knew I could hit them with an amp in the box pedal like a dirty little secret... to “Marshallize” them.  Similarly I had a Wampler Black 57 pedal which I “Fenderize” or de-Marshall a Marshall.

 

i haven’t gotten around to trying to use a Stomp like that.... none of the modelled pedals in the library are typically what I would associate with that... but it worked beautifully in the analog world.

 

Of course.... yeah... why model the pedal when they’ve modeled the amps...but the limited amount of time I tried to replicate that with my amp and a stomp... I couldn’t get what my pedals did.

 

Sean Meredith-Jones 

www.seanmeredithjones.com 

[MikeDV1]

If you're brand new to modeling, then you haven't found out there are two rules:  number one - there is no perfect, definitive setup for everyone.  FRFR, power amp/speakers, return of your favorite amp - combo or head and speakers, headphones, amps with/without IR's, multiple amps - the combinations are literally endless.  If you keep looking though here you'll find that some folks that swear that one setup must never be used or that another setup must always be used - and vice versa with exactly the same components.  You see this at all of the forums for each of the various modelers.  Your chosen combination of physical and virtual combinations, and listening to them in the manner you have, will become what you swear by.  If you pick one of the resident expert user's advice and create a setup - there's literally a 1 in 1000 (or more) chance that it will attain your goal - without adding or subtracting something else to get your sound.  So, get the stomp if it fits your budget and looks like it will work for you, and set it up, and start the fun journey.  First setup might work perfectly (probably not), but don't rule out immediately what seems like it's for you.  By all means, try what folks suggest and swear by, but YMMV.  It's all opinion based - and here's yet another one. If you're worried about the coloration of "real" EL34 vs. EL84, you won't really tell much difference at low volumes.  True, some amps have a distinctive sound at lower volumes, but that's not the personality of the power tubes being slammed, it's the combination of components by the manufacturer.  Power amp tube personalities become significant at live performance volumes. Yes, the use of IR's can help get you there (or away from there), but there are tons of EQ, compressor, and preamp/amp combinations in the Helix world, and that is just the start of how they interact with other components (speaker choices, DAW inputs, etc.).  I guess I forgot to mention rule number two - if how you have it setup doesn't quite get there for you, refer to rule number one.

[manix1979]

To be honest, I returned to a tube amp. FRFR is good but did not bring me „that“ sound. For home recording I use Helix Native with an IR of my cab. 
Works and sounds for my taste. ;-)

[kazen]

I’m playing a gig tonight in a pub with 2 4x12 backlines.  Bought a baby bomb but it doesn’t work well with my Helix. I get cricket-like noise at ~2500 hz, happens even if helix is switched off.  Nothing I can do to filter it out.  Baby bomb works clean with other sources (guitar straight in, kotzen rk5) so seems to be a Helix interaction issue. Weird. 

[tenayar]

Greetings, Yamaha purchased line 6 so question is, StageSource L3t or the yamaha HS8 studio monitors?

stagesource is more dedicated to live performance but why pay for HS8 since stagesource is portable, UNLESS the sound quality of HS8 are so high then just get the studio monitors.

 

To better help in this questions.

I have the Helix floor with Powercab 112 plus + (I'm not sure what kind of tones I need and buying lots of different amps during my journey seems like a bargain with HELIX) hence purchased

 

Now I wanted to practice my licks on guitar and vocals and use Helix 2nd channel to the mic and play FLAT through the power cab when using a mic.  works good but need lots of gain and EQ adjusts but works ok.

I can get away with the FLAT response but cant use the cab models effectively when playing guitar and mic(vocals) through Powercab.  So I need some monitors to play back the DAW clips I record and laying down tracks. I can use the powercab as a monitor in flat response yet...

 

So first I thought HS8 monitor hooked up to the HELIX for 2nd Channnel and play the guitar channel through the Powercab and put the 2nd channel to the Monitor speakers so I can hear the speaker models for live guitar playing.

 

IF the StageSource L3t  sound quality is as good as HS8 I would rather buy the stage source for portable live sounds

 

StargeSource L3t or HS8 studio monitors.?

 

Thanks

Tenaya