Using the FLAT mode with the VOICING FRFR, OF RAW or LF FLAT on the POWERCAB 112 PLUS

[jaboldu]

Hello,
1. I use a full AMP MODEL, a CAB MODEL and a MICROPHONE in the POD.
2. I connect to the POWERCAB 112 PLUS through the L6 LINK ports of both units.
3. I use the FLAT mode on the POWERCAB 112 PLUS.
4. I understand that the use of any of the VOICING (FRFR, LF RAW, LF FLAT) does not imply that you are no longer using the FLAT flat response mode, otherwise it would change to SPEAKER or USER IR mode..
5. The use of FLAT mode with VOICING FRFR on the POWERCAB is quite disappointing using a full AMP MODEL, a CAB MODEL and a MICROPHONE on the POD.
6. Using the FLAT mode with the VOICING LF RAW or LF FLAT on the POWERCAB 112 PLUS while using a full AMP MODEL, a CAB MODEL and a MICROPHONE on the POD sounds much better
7. Is my POWERCAB really amplifying what happens in the POD or is it modifying the POD simulator?
8. I don't really understand VOICING in FLAT mode. If I use LF SOLO mode or LF FLAT mode, does it imply that I am not using FLAT mode? If so, why are the SPEAKER mode and the USER IR mode?

Thanks for your reply

[amsdenj]

Powercab x12+ has three modes

 

Flat Mode - has three voicings that select the final post-processing EQ and crossover settings for the speaker system. XLR out is the same as the Powercab input (for all voicings)

• FRFR - Uses the high-frequency compression driver with a flattened frequency-response EQ for full-range operation. The tweeter is on, XLR out is the same as the Powercab input. Use when cab or IR models are provided before the Powercab input.Good for acoustic instruments.
• LF Raw - Uses only the woofer with no EQ applied, allowing Powercab to be utilized like a typical 12" guitar speaker. Tweeter is off. Use with no IR or cab processing at the input.
• LF Flat - Uses only the woofer with a flattened frequency response EQ. This voicing is used as the normalized basis for the Speaker models. Essentially each Speaker model is an EQ added to LF Flat that reproduces the sound of the modeled speaker. Tweeter is off. Use this for a different guitar speaker sound. 

Speaker - each speaker model adds EQ to to the to the LF Flat basis to reproduce the sound of the speaker model. XLR output is a cab model that matches the speaker model, and includes a mic model. Tweeter is always off. This is probably the mode that leverages the unique features of Powercab the most to provide the amp in the room sound. It is actually a guitar speaker in the room with no mic model. Use with no IR or cab processing at the input.

 

IR - uses IRs on the Flat/FRFR voicing for additional speaker selections. XLR output includes the IR processing. The tweeter is always on. Use with no IR or cab processing at the input.

 

[jaboldu]

Gracias. No acabo de entender que son los IR. Tampoco se como cargarlos en el PC+

[jonperry4]

On 8/25/2019 at 2:02 PM, amsdenj said:

• FRFR - Uses the high-frequency compression driver with a flattened frequency-response EQ for full-range operation. The tweeter is on, XLR out is the same as the Powercab input. Use when cab or IR models are provided before the Powercab input.Good for acoustic instruments.
• LF Raw - Uses only the woofer with no EQ applied, allowing Powercab to be utilized like a typical 12" guitar speaker. Tweeter is off. Use with no IR or cab processing at the input.
• LF Flat - Uses only the woofer with a flattened frequency response EQ. This voicing is used as the normalized basis for the Speaker models. Essentially each Speaker model is an EQ added to LF Flat that reproduces the sound of the modeled speaker. Tweeter is off. Use this for a different guitar speaker sound. 

 

What I find very confusing is that, despite the fact that the FRFR mode uses the high frequency driver, it sounds dark, muffled and lifeless compared to LF Raw or LF Flat, neither of which uses the HF driver.  I can certainly dial in a nice tone using LF Raw or LF Flat, but the problem I see is that I'm hearing something nice on stage, and presumably I'm sending something dull and lifeless to FOH (as the PC+ is just passing through the input from the modeler).  

 

What setting is a good approximate of a full-range PA speaker? FRFR?  And if so, why does it sound so dark?

[jaboldu]

Exact. I do not understand that using all the amplifier and cabinet simulations in the POD and sending the output L6 to the Powercab (and configured this in FRFR) the result is not good. If I use LF voicings, it is good voicings with POD simulations. I speak of distorted sounds

[amsdenj]

POD doesn't have impulse responses or high cut in the cab models if I remember right. That's probably your problem. You're using the speaker to tame the highs instead of a high cut. 

 

Try Flat FRFR mode, but turn down the tweeter in Powercab global settings.

 

[jaboldu]

If I use a POD preset with distortion (either with CAB or without CAB and with AMP or PREAMP) and I use a speaker model in the Powercab the tweeter still sounds and the sound is disappointing. When using a speaker model, shouldn't the tweeter automatically turn off?
I appreciate any help in advance as I begin to think if it will not be defective.

[jaboldu]

In Global Settings, I select HF TRIM and leave it Off but I don't notice any changes.
I'm desperate

[SteveFrance]

10 hours ago, jaboldu said:

When using a speaker model, shouldn't the tweeter automatically turn off?
I appreciate any help in advance as I begin to think if it will not be defective.

 

I think that the HF tweeter is not active in PC speaker mode.

On way i found to modify the sound in this mode, is to go in the speaker parameter list (click on led button and go downside) select and adjust the high/low cut in each model as you like...

[amsdenj]

The tweeter is only on in Flat/FRFR and IR modes. 

[SteveJohns]

I just want to say "Thank You" for this thread!!

 

I was wondering why the '000 Flat' patch on my Powercab 112+ sounded anything but flat.  

 

Reason (as per posts above):  the subsetting in the patch was not FRFR  (it was one of the LF modes) and so the tweeter was not on.   Doh!

 

I had let this slide for awhile as I was loving all the other "speaker" sounds.  However, one of my important applications does require an actual flat (FRFR) response, and I was really starting to wonder if the (my?)  Powercab could deliver.

 

This thread solved it for me.    Many thanks!

 

 

[EZakhary]

i was wondering same , got one from store and new to helix so dont really know what patches or settings to use with powercab....hense why some sounded good and many awful. too many variables when u use presets or downloaed tones from custom tone shop or whether to use helix or powercab as cab etc......find it bit confusing especially if you got them both new at same time. tried headrush also 108 but again knowing all the  little tricks to get realistic tones. 

[davedivessails]

On 12/10/2020 at 1:29 AM, EZakhary said:

i was wondering same , got one from store and new to helix so dont really know what patches or settings to use with powercab....hence why some sounded good and many awful. too many variables when u use presets or downloaded tones from custom tone shop or whether to use helix or powercab as cab etc......find it bit confusing especially if you got them both new at same time. tried headrush also 108 but again knowing all the  little tricks to get realistic tones. 

 

Getting a helix and a PC+ at the same time sounds like a dream rig ..... but reality is its most likely a nightmare. Trying to learn the intricacies of set-up and out-puts, work flow, connection options, dialing in functions for editing snapshots, tone shaping and output levels whilst driving the front end up towards distortion in balance to the amp settings, then compounding that again with more outputs, speaker options, onboard tone shaping (Cuts) for both the Helix and the PC+ ... but no global eq on the L6 digital link (trick for young players).... Equals all the feeds you see on line saying "PC over-hype, sounds rubbish, too quiet.... for sale"

 

I had my Helix Floor unit for a year before getting a PC212+ so I had a very good idea of the Helix end as I really went through the manuals, the online videos, the you-tube gurus and experimented for days at a time; and the tones I have dialed in for each of my main 6 string squeezes are simply delicious.

 

But once I got deep into the interfacing of the Helix into the PC+ I found there are is again a very steep learning curve. The tones are definitely in there and when you dial in the right combinations they are truly remarkable - like you see the top pros react to in the L6 marketing videos - but for us day job guys, no matter how keen and how much time we spend, I think Line 6 could, should,  make the whole process a hell of a lot simpler with a focused introduction.

 

I think the Line 6 manuals are amongst the best technical manuals I ever seen for logical flow, tips/tricks, Important messages stand out at the right time. I'm a marine electronics engineer by trade so I see a lot of technical docs.... and I think L6 have these nailed.... almost. Whats missing is the deeper "Why". The "How to" ... "Turn this, twist that, push this ... go to menu" is there, but the "whats it doing, hows it doing it, why is it doing it" is missing. I make this point because most people learn by understanding the dynamics of any given action. Just telling someone what to do doesn't teach much and doesn't set a technical platform of understanding to build on. Explaining not just the "hows", but also the "whys and why not's", builds a base to grow from.

 

A common mistake of tech companies in any industry, is forgetting the the average end-user doesn't have anywhere near the base understanding of the wizards who created the product.

 

I'm not saying dumb it down .... that's freaking painful ,like pulling teeth. I'm just saying "Connect the out-comes to the actions, by explaining what-just-happened" . Not how to - you've covered that in the manuals already - but more "what and why".

 

This is information that L6 engineers live with everyday to be able to create the incredible products they make. How about sharing more of it with us dedicated customers and making what is already out there a heck of a lot easier to source.

 

Thanks to Power user Amsdenj above, who completely nails the initial question, without actually answering the question that was asked at all. He simply explained "whats happening" and "why". it seems to have answered several other user questions at the same time ..... including mine.  A perfect example. 

 

It will be worth the Line 6 investment of time and effort as your volume/majority customer base will be dialing in awesomeness much easier and faster..... you'll see a drop in 2nd hand Helix and PC+ units for sale, and an increase in new unit sales as customer referrals for this type of product is absolute king.

 

Now I'm off to dial in some LF Raw and LF Flat options to my hard won favorite patches..... Rock on!

 

 

[unclemikeband]

Amsdenj

This has been very helpful. I am now using the speaker setting and it does sound more like the real deal.

On 8/25/2019 at 2:02 PM, amsdenj said:

Speaker - each speaker model adds EQ to to the to the LF Flat basis to reproduce the sound of the speaker model. XLR output is a cab model that matches the speaker model, and includes a mic model. Tweeter is always off. This is probably the mode that leverages the unique features of Powercab the most to provide the amp in the room sound. It is actually a guitar speaker in the room with no mic model. Use with no IR or cab processing at the input.

What should the speaker level be set to? 0db? Also since you recommend to turn off cab processing on the modeler I assume that I should use the XLR output on the powercab+ to go to the board? You said the XLR output is a cab model that matches the speaker model (I'm using Green)? Can you please explain?

Thanks

Mike

[SuaveNorwood]

On 8/25/2019 at 1:02 PM, amsdenj said:

Powercab x12+ has three modes

 

Flat Mode - has three voicings that select the final post-processing EQ and crossover settings for the speaker system. XLR out is the same as the Powercab input (for all voicings)

• FRFR - Uses the high-frequency compression driver with a flattened frequency-response EQ for full-range operation. The tweeter is on, XLR out is the same as the Powercab input. Use when cab or IR models are provided before the Powercab input.Good for acoustic instruments.
• LF Raw - Uses only the woofer with no EQ applied, allowing Powercab to be utilized like a typical 12" guitar speaker. Tweeter is off. Use with no IR or cab processing at the input.
• LF Flat - Uses only the woofer with a flattened frequency response EQ. This voicing is used as the normalized basis for the Speaker models. Essentially each Speaker model is an EQ added to LF Flat that reproduces the sound of the modeled speaker. Tweeter is off. Use this for a different guitar speaker sound. 

Speaker - each speaker model adds EQ to to the to the LF Flat basis to reproduce the sound of the speaker model. XLR output is a cab model that matches the speaker model, and includes a mic model. Tweeter is always off. This is probably the mode that leverages the unique features of Powercab the most to provide the amp in the room sound. It is actually a guitar speaker in the room with no mic model. Use with no IR or cab processing at the input.

 

IR - uses IRs on the Flat/FRFR voicing for additional speaker selections. XLR output includes the IR processing. The tweeter is always on. Use with no IR or cab processing at the input.

 

Thanks a ton for this explanation! I've read through the PowerCab+ manual multiple times to see what the differences between the 3 are. This isnt explained there. 

[amsdenj]

I would only add that Flat mode with LF Raw voicing works really well with modelers. The Eminence speaker in Powercab is actually a pretty nice guitar speaker. Use it in Flat/LF Raw with no cab or IR block in Helix and you get a very nice amp in the room sound. This is how I use Powercab for backline stage volume, and I use a separate path with a cab block for IEM and FOH. Don't be afraid to turn it up, and use some treble. 

[PaulTBaker]

I have the floor and the PC112+ and PC212.  I always use Flat mode with LF Raw voicings.  I also always use a cab, etc.  that has always sounded best to me, however, I have never tried turning the cab off with loud volumes.  I will try that.

 

Also, I have two presets that I use control center to jump to one another.  I have my acoustic guitar in the aux and tele in the guitar.  The acoustic/electric presets are set to either aux or guitar.  This keeps the noise down when switching.  Did I understand you are saying that for my acoustic guitar, I should change the PC to FRFR from LF Raw?

 

I will give that a try as well.  Thanks for the info!

[amsdenj]

Using a cab or IR block with FLAT/LF Raw is putting a guitar speaker into a guitar speaker. That's going to sound pretty dark. But maybe that's what you like. Typically you would use cab or IR block into FLAT/FRFR and no cab or IR block into FLAT/LF Raw.

 

I've never found a very good use for FLAT/LF Flat.

 

For any acoustic instrument or keyboard, FLAT/FRFR would be typical. But for something like a Fender Rhodes, you might like FLAT/LF Raw because we're use to hearing that into guitar-like speakers.

 

[PaulTBaker]

probably just my ears, because I do like the PC on LF Raw and using a cab in the Helix.  I guess I like dark because my favorite cab is the ampg 1x15.  To me that sounds the warmest with my tele.  Anything elses sounds very metalic and brittle, even with playing with the high cuts, etc.

 

I will definitely try having my aco preset change the PC to FRFR.  Also, I know you (amsdenj) had several post where you walked through your settings for acoustic intruments on the helix and PC.  Would you mind post those links if they are still available?  Thank you.  Also, what is your band's name.  I am also in Cary and would like to see/hear what you are doing.

[amsdenj]

Paul, the band is Moonlight Rescue Band, see Facebook. I also play acoustic music with No Worries, see Spotify or Apple Music.