Advice on best way to use Helix with tube amp head?

[woodshed43]

Hello everyone.  I just got a Helix and I am totally new to this device.  I have a Hughes & Kettner GM36 head and a Marshall JCM 900 4x12 cab.  How do I connect the Helix to the tube amp head for the best possible sound?  Any help is greatly appreciated.  Sorry if this post sounds dumb.  Go easy on me.  Thanks in advance!  ~Alex

 

[rd2rk]

Connect it using 4 cable method (4cm). there's templates in the Template Setlist. Search this forum, there's at least a thousand posts about it.

Then use MIDI from CommandCenter to control the MIDI features of your amp. RTM. Come back here with specific questions.

[theElevators]

Or just use what's in the Helix.  The whole point of using a processor is to stop using all your heavy gear.  So many choices for amps.... cabs, IRs... I really honestly don't see the point of using a physical amp using 4cbl method. 

[rd2rk]

18 minutes ago, theElevators said:

Or just use what's in the Helix.  The whole point of using a processor is to stop using all your heavy gear.  So many choices for amps.... cabs, IRs... I really honestly don't see the point of using a physical amp using 4cbl method. 

 

Not the only reason. Having hundreds of different amps and fx at your fingertips, and thus an infinite palette of sounds at your disposal comes to mind.

 

However, not everybody needs that. Some people just LIKE the sound of that big old amp!

 

Humans! Go figure!

[spaceatl]

If you are new, just connect the main out to the FX return and start there until you get under tweaking it...then move on to 4CM....

 

I have seen a lot of folks, new to the platform, get really frustrated jumping into 4CM right away. 4CM with a conventional amp is aggravating to me because I don't get much more than a couple analog preamp options with fixed settings in a performance....A bunch of cables and weight for very few tonal options.

 

When I do use 4CM, I use my old ADA-MP1....If I am going to 4CM into an analog preamp, I want more than one setting available...

[rd2rk]

20 minutes ago, spaceatl said:

If you are new, just connect the main out to the FX return and start there until you get under tweaking it...then move on to 4CM....

 

I have seen a lot of folks, new to the platform, get really frustrated jumping into 4CM right away. 4CM with a conventional amp is aggravating to me because I don't get much more than a couple analog preamp options with fixed settings in a performance....A bunch of cables and weight for very few tonal options.

 

When I do use 4CM, I use my old ADA-MP1....If I am going to 4CM into an analog preamp, I want more than one setting available...

 

I must be misunderstanding.

 

If your tube amp only has one preamp, you only have that to play with. Multi channels can be switched using CommandCenter.

 

BUT, in 4cm, you can replace it with any Helix amp or preamp. simply by toggling the FX Loop ON (Helix pre/amp OFF) for the tube pre and OFF (Helix pre/amp ON) for the Helix pre/amp. The pre/post relationship of the fx remains the same.  

 

If your point is that you MUST have analog pre, with multiple variations, adding your ADA-MP1 gives you two. Add another, maybe a Kingsley, now you have three. Add another...now your pedalboard/rack is getting pretty big....

 

Like I said, I must be misunderstanding. What am I missing?

[spaceatl]

23 hours ago, rd2rk said:

 

I must be misunderstanding.

 

If your tube amp only has one preamp, you only have that to play with. Multi channels can be switched using CommandCenter.

 

BUT, in 4cm, you can replace it with any Helix amp or preamp. simply by toggling the FX Loop ON (Helix pre/amp OFF) for the tube pre and OFF (Helix pre/amp ON) for the Helix pre/amp. The pre/post relationship of the fx remains the same.  

 

If your point is that you MUST have analog pre, with multiple variations, adding your ADA-MP1 gives you two. Add another, maybe a Kingsley, now you have three. Add another...now your pedalboard/rack is getting pretty big....

 

Like I said, I must be misunderstanding. What am I missing?

 

My primary point was folks new to the platform might be better off hitting the power amp in before going 4cm

 

I did not make my second point very clearly. Sorry about that...It is just an opinion of my own rationale of 4cm. The whole point of 4cm is to be able to toggle between some analog preamp or a helix model....My poorly made point is for all the extra cabling and weight to support the analog preamp(s) channel(s) in some amplifier yields only a few additional tones...Diminishing returns for a difference only I may notice...

 

With an ADA, there's more options (128 via midi), but still all the extra cables, space, weight and tweaking time ended up not being worth it long term for me. 

 

 

[rd2rk]

Gotcha.

[bobcoss]

Woodshed, 

 

There are many ways to hook the Helix to physical amps.

 

1. Use the helix as an effects processor putting all of them before the guitar in on your physical amps.  You get a lot of flexibility, and this is the way that many folks used pedals before amps included effects loops.  This reduces the risk of noise and ground loops that some experience with other methods.  Your patches would not include preamps/amp and cab/ir models unless you specifically are going attempting to craft sounds using them.   In general, this is going to limit the flexibility of the types of electric guitar tone to the those your amps and cabinets are capable of reproducing.

 

2. Use the helix to craft patches of classic amplifier models, but use the power amp section and the speaker cabinets of your physical amps.   Build patches using the effects you want into a preamp/amp model that you want to use, and take the output from the helix and go directly into the effects return of your amp.  That will give you a lot of tonal flexibility for your sound, but still limits you to what the power amp and cabinet can produce.  You get a lot of flexibility with this, and can get some amazing variations.  But a 4x12 marshal cabinet is always going to effect the tone in a consistent manner.    The power amps also will color the tone in consistent ways.  you might have some control over it in the amp settings.   This is the way to get the  "best possible sound" when hooking  them up to your physical amps in my opinion.    If you feel the tone of the preamps in your amps are part of your "best possible sound", then the next option is probably for you.

 

3. The 4 cable method (4cm) allows you to use the preamps from your existing heads, and the power amps and cabs you have.  You can put effects in appropriate paths to your liking.  I personally don't mess with 4cm much any more except for experiments in my basement.   I feel that the Helix preamps/full amp models as described above give you much better options and flexibility than using the preamps in your physical amps.  Now you might just prefer to use those two amps, and want to control them via the Helix, and that can all be accomplished.  This can sounds great.   Many folks have problems with noise and issues with signal levels using 4cm.  Plus hooking up all of those cables gets old quick and introduce more places for your rig to fail if you are gigging.

 

Many folks like the Helix because they can pack up their Helix and guitar and go to a gig without carrying physical amps.    The convenience and flexibility of the Helix are what has made it one of the most popular modelers in use today.    I still like to use Tube amps at home for experiments and as a reference to classic amp sounds for when I build patches.   Plus classic tube amps have that all important "amp in the room" sound and feel that so many are after.    There is nothing like the sound of plugging in a classic guitar into the front of a Marshal head, with everything on 10 and jamming.   Using some of the options I and others have been writing to you about will still give you that experience.

 

Bob

 

 

[amsdenj]

Check this out: 

 

[Shibuyaaxe]

to @bobcoss I'm new to the helix, and I think you may have simplified it for me, just came acroos your post, Thanks..

I've been effect looping for years, even have bounded nice double cables to and from the effects loop of whatever amp is in front of me! You are saying...I can utilize all the effects in my helix floor running straight out, 1 cable, to the return of said amp head? I mean, I love the sound of delays and chorus going through effect loops instead of to front of amp (preamp) Why then would would I have to set up another block in helix (Send/Return)? Can I just plug and play thru helix to amp return and get rid of that block and 4CM? Please advise, and thank you.

[rd2rk]

The post you're replying to is 5yrs old, so that person might not still be around.

 

If you're using a Helix AMP in your signal chain, then you can simply go direct to the physical amp's RETURN, running your rig the same way you'd use a traditional rig.

However, this bypasses the physical amp's preamp section.

Without some kind of an amp in the Helix signal chain, it probably won't sound all that great.

 

So, if your goal is to simplify your setup, you can use Helix as either a traditional pedalboard with all effects into the physical amp's INPUT or as a traditional pedalboard with AIAB into the physical amp's RETURN.

 

If you run 4cm you can choose, on the fly, to use either the physical amp's preamp or a Helix amp simply by assigning both the Helix amp and the FX S/R Block to the same FS. If you SAVE the preset with one ON and the other BYPASSED then each time you hit the FS you'll TOGGLE between the physical amp and the Helix amp. You can also use SNAPSHOTS for this, allowing you to change other parameters/devices at the same time from a single FS. You can even, DSP allowing, use multiple Helix amps for even more virtual "amp channels". You can place some FX (like OD, DIST, MODS) BEFORE the amps and some (like time based FX) AFTER the amps and the whole shebang will output through the physical amp's power amp and speaker. This is also convenient if you want to route the signal to FOH using an IR.

 

One of the advantages of Helix is millions of options, but if you want SIMPLE you can do that, too.