70's Chorus Block - Active sound difference

[themetallikid]

As the title reads..... you're thinking 'Duh!' right?   However, not having real world or geeky type knowledge of things makes me wonder if I'm doing something 'wrong' or if this is just a byproduct of this effect. 

 

I'm using the 70's chorus in classic mode to stereo split my signal into a dual amp sound.  Path A is a lower gain amp for clarity and Path B is a thicker gainier type sound for the girth.   

 

When the chorus us bypassed I'm happy with the tone.  When the chorus is active, I'm happy with the the amount of chorus I'm getting....however I seem to lose quite a bit of the 'girth'.  My question for the more knowledge peeps here...

 

1) Is this just natural of how the chorus is being used?

2) Is this a result of the chorus being stereo, and maybe some sort of phasing when the paths join back up after the cabs?

3) Is there possibly something I'm doing wrong? I know there isnt really a 'wrong', however maybe something I'm doing that is losing part of the sound I had when its bypassed.  

[rd2rk]

OR you COULD just attach the preset right here...

 

[rd2rk]

At the bottom of the reply window. Very handy! Not a lot of storage space allowed though, I'm constantly having to go in and delete pictures from old posts!

[lou-kash]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:56 AM, themetallikid said:

When the chorus is active, I'm happy with the the amount of chorus I'm getting....however I seem to lose quite a bit of the 'girth'.

 

I've noticed a change in sound recently, too. I don't remember if it was always like this, but my solution simply is to use another chorus modeler block.

[52dmk]

Could due to that pedal model having 22k impedance. Try setting the impedance manually to 1M instead of auto

[amsdenj]

The chorus may be putting the two amps out of phase. 

[themetallikid]

On 5/25/2022 at 9:21 PM, rd2rk said:

OR you COULD just attach the preset right here...

 

I will attach it tonight.

 

On 5/26/2022 at 3:23 AM, lou-kash said:

 

I've noticed a change in sound recently, too. I don't remember if it was always like this, but my solution simply is to use another chorus modeler block.

Could be related, however wouldnt the 70's chorus have to be first in my chain anyway for this to be the issue?  Its most times 2nd or 3rd.

 

On 5/26/2022 at 6:48 AM, amsdenj said:

The chorus may be putting the two amps out of phase. 

I'm thinking this is whats happening.  As its not just a loss of 'girth' as I call it, it seems to wash out the clarity a bit.  I know how chorus works, and I get that it will have somewhat that effect anyway on a distorted/dual amp type tone, but its almost like the tone was put in a box and the girthier lows and clarity highs chopped off.  Its not a horrible tone, its just different than applying chorus to the tone thats there without it.  

 

I noticed it before when I had the mix only around 30% but to get a more drastic chorus tone I raised it to around 50% and it was much more prominent.  So my brain cant figure out if that is natural for that sound or if because of the split amp thing if its causing issues otherwise that I dont understand.  

[lou-kash]

On 5/26/2022 at 3:37 PM, themetallikid said:

Could be related, however wouldnt the 70's chorus have to be first in my chain anyway for this to be the issue?  Its most times 2nd or 3rd.

 

I didn't mean a different position in the chain. That doesn't make a difference.

What I've noticed is that an activated 70s Chorus massively changes the sound even when putting the Mix at 0%. It behaves as a low pass filter of sorts. Unusable for me.

So to me, this literally sounds like a bug, not a "feature".

 

That said, I don't remember how a real Boss CE-1 used to sound. Our keyboarder in the mid-1980s used to play his Rhodes with one, but I've never used it myself. I used to use (and still have) the CE-3.

 

So instead of the "70s Chorus", I now use the one simply named "Chorus".

Edited May 26, 2022 by lou-kash
turns out it's a "feature", not a bug, see below

[lou-kash]

On 5/26/2022 at 4:08 PM, lou-kash said:

this literally sounds like a bug, not a "feature".

 

For what it's worth, I just checked how the Legacy > "Analog Chorus" behaves, as it's also based on CE-1. The is no "low pass" effect when the mix is set to 0%, under any circumstances.

 

 

However:

 

On 5/26/2022 at 4:08 PM, lou-kash said:

I didn't mean a different position in the chain. That doesn't make a difference

 

I noticed that the low pass bug with the 70s Chorus doesn't appear if I have an active compressor (Ampeg Octo Comp at the moment) in front, even when the compressor Mix is 0%! As soon as I turn the comp block off completely, the sound of the chorus drops to its odd "low pass mode".

 

A weird bug "feature".

Edited May 26, 2022 by lou-kash

[lou-kash]

On 5/26/2022 at 4:43 PM, lou-kash said:

As soon as I turn the comp block off completely, the sound of the chorus drops to its odd "low pass mode".

 

Alright, it can be any block that comes before the 70s Chorus, even just Gain being active but doing nothing. If the 70s Chorus is the 1st active block in a chain, it goes to this "low pass mode".

 

And, upon further testing, it actually boils down to the In-Z parameter. (for the record, I play a Les Paul)

• "Auto" = sound drop if 70s Chorus is the 1st active block in the chain
• 1MΩ = no sound drop

Now, in Global Settings > Preferences > Auto In-Z, I had "Enabled" active.

When I change it to "First", this "low pass drop" disappears.

 

Tricky settings…

There was something new about the Auto-In-Z in one of the recent firmware updates. I didn't fully understand what it's all about. 

[lou-kash]

On 5/26/2022 at 4:55 PM, lou-kash said:

 

There was something new about the Auto-In-Z in one of the recent firmware updates. I didn't fully understand what it's all about. 

 

Aaand so to reiterate here:

 

Quote

Global Settings > Preferences > Auto Impedance

Helix Floor, Helix Rack/Control, Helix LT, HX Stomp

A new Global Settings > Preference parameter determines how the Guitar In's impedance circuit behaves when Input > In-Z is set to "Auto." When set to "First Block" (the default), the impedance circuit reflects the impedance of the first block on Path 1A, regardless of whether it's enabled or bypassed. When set to "First Enabled", the impedance circuit reflects the impedance of the first enabled block on Path 1A. Called "Auto Impedance" because "Sorry-this-took-so-long-we-love-you-Tito83" wouldn't fit.

 

[themetallikid]

interesting....       I've thought about swapping to a different chorus.  I'll have to experiment with what you say.   I have presets where its first and others where its not.  I'll have to check that as well.  

 

 

appreciate the information

[PaulTBaker]

This may not have anything to do with it, however if I understand correctly, you are splitting the channel right after the chorus.  Is the girth on the bottom Channel?  If so, the mix level of the channel may be too low and you are not getting enough of the girth signal coming back when the channels merge.   You could look at the merge black after the split and see what the mix levels are. You could raise the level to see if that helps.

[themetallikid]

On 5/26/2022 at 12:15 PM, PaulTBaker said:

This may not have anything to do with it, however if I understand correctly, you are splitting the channel right after the chorus.  Is the girth on the bottom Channel?  If so, the mix level of the channel may be too low and you are not getting enough of the girth signal coming back when the channels merge.   You could look at the merge black after the split and see what the mix levels are. You could raise the level to see if that helps.

Yes the dumbed-down version of the preset (core sound) comes from:

 

70's stereo chorus > Split Block >

>Path A > Ventoux Amp block > Mesa EQ > Cab Block

>Path B > Rockerverb Amp block > Mesa EQ > Cab Block

> Merge Block > Output

 

The split/merge blocks are left stock, I do not set standard mixes there at all.  The Rockerverb is the more prominent of the amp sounds, the Ventoux is there just to had some bite/clarity on the high end notes.  

 

I'll post the one of the presets tonight.

[themetallikid]

Here are two presets, Dead and Bloated is the first song we start with...so I noticed it right away.  

 

Dead and Bloated - THe first snapshot is the main sound, and I go to snapshot 2 for the chorus of the song.  That is where the 70's chorus kicks in.  In this preset the 70's chorus is the first block in the path, but there is something weird when I turn it on.

 

Sin/Plush - This preset has 3 snapshots really. Snapshots 1 and 4 are the same sound, snapshots 2/5 are the same sound, just labelled differently cause we combine these songs.   But 1/4 are the ones with the chorus.  Snapshots 2/5 have boost before the amp and also lose the IR at the beginning.  But this preset is one of the few where the chorus is used and its not the first block.  

Sin _ Plush.hlx Dead and Bloated.hlx

[lou-kash]

On 5/27/2022 at 2:12 PM, themetallikid said:

Here are two presets

 

Could you please "downgrade" them a bit so that they are compatible with HX Stomp's 8 block limit? I can't load them.

 

However, I think that this… 

On 5/26/2022 at 11:27 AM, 52dmk said:

Could due to that pedal model having 22k impedance. Try setting the impedance manually to 1M instead of auto

… was actually spot on. (I missed this post at first while checking out all options in my earlier posts.)

 

Also, the aforementioned global Auto Impedance preference setting isn't part of a preset, so your presets might actually work flawlessly for anyone whose global preference is "First".

[lou-kash]

On 5/26/2022 at 5:31 PM, themetallikid said:

I've thought about swapping to a different chorus.

 

In fact, now that I understood what was going on – at least in my case – and fixed it, I changed my presets back to the 70s Chorus because in the mono mode I like its sound the best. :)