Muddy

[yoMuzicMan]

Hi. I am an original owner of a Helix Rack (2016) and Helix LT (2017). I have these connected to my computer via USB. I listen to these units using JBL monitors and AKG headphones. I am running the latest firmware and have factory reset the units as instructed each time I've updated the firmware.

 

When creating a patch, I find just about all of the amp models extremely muddy. This isn't anything new as I've felt this way about these units since I bought them. These units are running firmware 3.5, and I'm using the new cabs but they don't fix the issue. I've tried several guitars from Carvin and Fender and several cables with the same muddy results.

 

Observations:

 

1 - When I compare the Helix Rack against the LT, I notice the LT is a tiny bit more lively. It has slightly more high end and gain. And I mean slightly, but it is noticeable. But both units are still too muddy.

2 - The only way I can get around the muddiness is to put an EQ block first with drastic settings to cut low, increase high, and boost the level.

3 - I've seen many videos where users create patches from scratch, and they don't sound muddy.

 

Does anyone know if Line 6 has upgraded or changed the input of these units over the years so they don't muddy on newer units?  I've asked the same question to support but haven't heard back yet.

 

Thanks,

Ron

[Schmalle]

What strings do you use?

Closed tone knob?

Pickup height?

What amp models did you try?

Can you post a short clip that captures the mud?

Are the guitars not muddy checking against a real amp?

 

Brief answer prefered.

[theElevators]

Are the LT and the Rack routed the same way?  Same firmware?  Same global EQ?  Same exact identical settings?

[DunedinDragon]

 Here's your best bet.  Go to YouTube and go to Jason Sadites area.  Select any one of his "dialing in" series or preferably one of his 3.5 firmware videos on something like the Ventreax amp and follow every step exactly.  Then report back about the results.

 

There are way too many variables that you didn't cover in your description so it's impossible to guess at what's happening with your setup.

[yoMuzicMan]

@DunedinDragon I've seen Jason's videos along with many other people who have helped demonstrate "how to" dial in a patch, create a patch from scratch etc.  As I follow all of their steps exactly, my results are significantly different.

 

@theElevators Yes, the LT and Rack are routed the same way. Guitar directly into input and then listening with the same speakers via line outs or the same headphones. I've factory reset them, do not have global EQ engaged, and am just creating a new patch using an amp and cab.  Very simple setup.

 

@Schmalle I'm using Elixir nanoweb 10-46. And I'm using 5 different guitars.  Telecaster, Stratocaster, Fender Sixty-Six, Variax, and Carvin CT-3.  All guitars have volume and tone open wide with similar results. I've experimented with pickup height on all of the guitars with very little impact to the muddiness. I don't own a real amp these days, so I can't compare. I will try to demonstrate my issue in a video and post it on YouTube.

 

Many of these guitars I've had for years.  And before using Helix, I would plug my guitars into a Scarlet audio interface connected to my Windows computer and was using S-Gear software. I will say if the input gain wasn't set right, it could get muddy too.  But having control over the input level enabled me to get very good tones out of S-Gear.  This is what the issue feels like to me using the Helix.  I don't think input of my units have enough signal to drive the amps correctly.  I've messed around with the impedance setting, and it does change the sound.  But no setting fixes my issue.  And I've also messed with the padding on or off.  Only putting an EQ block in front of any amp to boost the level by around 6 or 8, cutting the lows, and boosting the highs helps.

 

My original post ended with a question asking if Line 6 may have updated the input section of these units.  Since the Helix came out in 2015, and I have 2016 and 2017 models, maybe something has changed. A friend of mine just got an LT this year.  I plan on getting together with him so I can compare a simple patch between them.

 

Your replies are much appreciated.

[Schmalle]

On 2/10/2023 at 1:05 AM, yoMuzicMan said:

'm using Elixir nanoweb 10-46. And I'm using 5 different guitars.  Telecaster, Stratocaster, Fender Sixty-Six, Variax, and Carvin CT-3.  All guitars have volume and tone open wide with similar results. I've experimented with pickup height on all of the guitars with very little impact to the muddiness. I don't own a real amp these days, so I can't compare. I will try to demonstrate my issue in a video and post it on YouTube.

I found the E,A,D strings of Elixirs too bassy. I myself struggled with muddy low end with these - no kidding. So my first suggestion would be to try a non-coated set of strings. And before you change - make some reference recordings to compare.

 

Here is my comparison measurement of an A sting spectrum: stainless steel Ernie Balls (blue-ish) vs Nanoweb (faint purple) (3dB / devision). It shows 8dB less in the low end around 100Hz.

[DunedinDragon]

On 2/9/2023 at 7:05 PM, yoMuzicMan said:

 

Many of these guitars I've had for years.  And before using Helix, I would plug my guitars into a Scarlet audio interface connected to my Windows computer and was using S-Gear software. I will say if the input gain wasn't set right, it could get muddy too.  But having control over the input level enabled me to get very good tones out of S-Gear.  This is what the issue feels like to me using the Helix.  I don't think input of my units have enough signal to drive the amps correctly.  I've messed around with the impedance setting, and it does change the sound.  But no setting fixes my issue.  And I've also messed with the padding on or off.  Only putting an EQ block in front of any amp to boost the level by around 6 or 8, cutting the lows, and boosting the highs helps.

 

My original post ended with a question asking if Line 6 may have updated the input section of these units.  Since the Helix came out in 2015, and I have 2016 and 2017 models, maybe something has changed. A friend of mine just got an LT this year.  I plan on getting together with him so I can compare a simple patch between them.

 

Your replies are much appreciated.

There have been some minor changes in the input area of the Helix a couple of releases ago that made some adjustments to how the Helix responded to the input signal if you had your Guitar-Z setting on the input set to Auto.  I've never had any problem with any of my guitars (Les Paul, Strat, Tele, SG, Gretsch Silver Falcon, Gretsch Resonator, Gold Tone Banjo, Takamine Acoustic) either before or after that update in over 8 years performing or recording with my Guitar-Z setting on auto.  That's on two separate Helix Floor units (one for live and the other in the studio).  That's on roughly 300 - 400 different presets.

Since this is showing up on both your Rack and your LT, and you're convinced there's nothing wrong with the way your presets are laid out, AND you're definitely going through the Guitar input on the Helix that all leads me to think there's something external affecting your sound, whether that be a cable or your output devices.  Even those aren't likely because you're dealing with two different output devices.  The only other possible thing I can think of that would definitely make the signals appear to be muddy would be the Fletcher Munson effect if you're output levels are too low.  Both my on stage level and my rehearsal levels are always around 90db at 6 to 8 feet distance to overcome those limitations.

[Paulzx]

On 2/10/2023 at 12:05 AM, yoMuzicMan said:

@DunedinDragon I've seen Jason's videos along with many other people who have helped demonstrate "how to" dial in a patch, create a patch from scratch etc.  As I follow all of their steps exactly, my results are significantly different.

 

@theElevators Yes, the LT and Rack are routed the same way. Guitar directly into input and then listening with the same speakers via line outs or the same headphones. I've factory reset them, do not have global EQ engaged, and am just creating a new patch using an amp and cab.  Very simple setup.

 

@Schmalle I'm using Elixir nanoweb 10-46. And I'm using 5 different guitars.  Telecaster, Stratocaster, Fender Sixty-Six, Variax, and Carvin CT-3.  All guitars have volume and tone open wide with similar results. I've experimented with pickup height on all of the guitars with very little impact to the muddiness. I don't own a real amp these days, so I can't compare. I will try to demonstrate my issue in a video and post it on YouTube.

 

Many of these guitars I've had for years.  And before using Helix, I would plug my guitars into a Scarlet audio interface connected to my Windows computer and was using S-Gear software. I will say if the input gain wasn't set right, it could get muddy too.  But having control over the input level enabled me to get very good tones out of S-Gear.  This is what the issue feels like to me using the Helix.  I don't think input of my units have enough signal to drive the amps correctly.  I've messed around with the impedance setting, and it does change the sound.  But no setting fixes my issue.  And I've also messed with the padding on or off.  Only putting an EQ block in front of any amp to boost the level by around 6 or 8, cutting the lows, and boosting the highs helps.

 

My original post ended with a question asking if Line 6 may have updated the input section of these units.  Since the Helix came out in 2015, and I have 2016 and 2017 models, maybe something has changed. A friend of mine just got an LT this year.  I plan on getting together with him so I can compare a simple patch between them.

 

Your replies are much appreciated.

I don't think it's anything to do with the above, I had the same problem about a year ago and solved it now, but still went through all the questions above. To be honest, switching strings or impedance settings don't make drastic changes to a problem like that.

 

In my case, it was the bass frequencies of the output speakers. As soon as I cut the bass on the FRFR speakers themselves using the room control switch, the guitar came alive, so it was less to do with the Helix and more to do with the speakers. When I listened with headphones it was okay, so if you're saying the tones are muddy even just through headphones, that's a problem as it's not speaker related obviously.

[datacommando]

On 2/10/2023 at 12:53 PM, Paulzx said:

I don't think it's anything to do with the above, I had the same problem about a year ago and solved it now, but still went through all the questions above. To be honest, switching strings or impedance settings don't make drastic changes to a problem like that.

 

In my case, it was the bass frequencies of the output speakers. As soon as I cut the bass on the FRFR speakers themselves using the room control switch, the guitar came alive, so it was less to do with the Helix and more to do with the speakers. When I listened with headphones it was okay, so if you're saying the tones are muddy even just through headphones, that's a problem as it's not speaker related obviously.

 

Hi,

 

The OP did state:- "I listen to these units using JBL monitors and AKG headphones."

 

Doesn't appear to be speaker related.

 

A sound sample and an example preset would be a big help here. Let's hope he gets a video posted on YouTube as he mentioned above.