Using different sounds while keeping overall volume consistent ?

[vincentm77]

Hi everyone,

I am using an HX Stomp XL.

I am using different presets for electrical guitar, clean sounds, crunch, distorted sounds, boosted distorted sounds for soli etc...

 

Is there some guidelines as to how to set the levels (drive/ channel volume / master) so that the overall volume of my guitar's sounds remains consistent ?

 

The sound engineer/ FOH also wishes to get a signal with not too much variations...

 

I always find it difficult to judge by ear if the volume of my presets are consistent or not.

 

Thanks for any idea !

Vincent

[codamedia]

You will not be able to balance them individually...

 

On 6/9/2023 at 3:13 AM, vincentm77 said:

Is there some guidelines as to how to set the levels (drive/ channel volume / master) so that the overall volume of my guitar's sounds remains consistent ?

 

I'd suggest using the channel volume or output block volume to balance presets. Do not change the drive, as that will change your tone. Do not adjust the "master" (within the amp), that too will change your tone. 

 

On 6/9/2023 at 3:13 AM, vincentm77 said:

The sound engineer/ FOH also wishes to get a signal with not too much variations...

I always find it difficult to judge by ear if the volume of my presets are consistent or not.

 

Find a decent backing track.... when you create your tones, play along with the backing track and get them to sit in with the part. Repeat that for each tone you have. In the end you will get your sound sitting in a mix the way YOU want it to and it they will be more consistent. NOTE: This process works best when you can do this close to a practice/gig volume. 

[DunedinDragon]

The simplest way is to select the output block on your signal chain which will then display the signal level output on your Helix device.  By adjusting your output block level you can adjust signal level output to a consistent reading without affecting the tone of your preset.  Normally at about 60 to 65 percent on that display will give you an adequately consistent signal the sound man can work with.  If you have access to a mixing board you can just plug your Helix output into a channel and then using the gain/trim knob on that channel set to 12 o'clock you can adjust your output from the Helix using the output block to adjust the signal level to a unity reading (0 db) on the mixing board.

[vincentm77]

thanks a lot everyone, good suggestions here 

[theElevators]

There's actual volume, then there's "perceived" volume.  If it cuts through the mix, it appears louder, even if it's not necessarily "loud".  So the only practical thing to do is use your ears and test things in context IMO.

[brue58ski]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:15 AM, theElevators said:

There's actual volume, then there's "perceived" volume.  If it cuts through the mix, it appears louder, even if it's not necessarily "loud".  So the only practical thing to do is use your ears and test things in context IMO.

 

That's true, but I would say the sound engineer is looking for the same overall electrical volume output as shown by the meters. They can then use their ears to finesse the mix. That's what sound engineers are supposed to do. The ultimate way would be to set the levels in the same room with the same amount of people in it,while playing with the band and the sound engineer could then holler back at you to tell you what to adjust. That, of course, is impractical. So give the sound engineer the same electrical level going into the board. They can go from there. IMHO.

[DunedinDragon]

There's really no "opinions" involved in this situation.  The sound engineer is simply wanting to have a consistent signal level so he can gain stage the band.  That's a simple process performed on each channel so that the signal level coming into the mixing board is at the same level on what's referred to as the Pre-Fader Listen (PFL) input which is before any EQ or mix volume output of the channel and achieved by adjusting the gain/trim knob on each channel.  That's done to make sure there's ample headroom in the signal level so it doesn't overmodulate or distort, and that's the level that needs to remain consistent because the overall mix of instruments which is done on the channel faders will determine the mix of the instruments and IS done by ear.  What the sound engineer is trying to avoid is having to re-adjust the gain/trim knobs because the inbound signal level varies when you change presets which adversely affects the mix.

[Blumi_guitar]

The 'Free Orban Loudness Meter' https://www.orban.com/freeorbanloudnessmeter might be useful to adjust the output level of different presets/snapshots.
There is an explanation on Youtube: https://youtu.be/P6U_kq0Nu2o and a video I found on https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/382916-how-do-I-use-a-loudness-meter-to-set-peak-level-to-12dB-before-capturing

 

Actually, I used the values of 'ITU BS.1770 Short Term & Integrated" and 'Reconstructed Peak' to level the output

[craiganderton]

Here's an excerpt from my eBook, The Big Book of Helix Tips and Tricks. It's somewhat of a deep dive, so I hope you find it helpful.

How to Level Presets

People have different attitudes about how (or even whether) to set presets to the same output level. There are four complications when trying to set consistent levels:

• A sound’s perceived level can be different from its measured level. A brighter sound may measure as softer, but be perceived as louder because it has energy where our ears are most sensitive.
• You want some sounds, like solos, to have a louder perceived level than others.
• With live performance, different presets will have different perceived levels depending on room acoustics, the size of the audience, and the music you’re playing.
• Presets that sound good in a home studio over monitors may not work well for live performance.

When using presets onstage, the only way to guarantee setting the right levels is to adjust them while playing live, in context. Regardless, having a consistent, baseline level speeds up the tweaking process.

 

Here’s an analogy. When adjusting a pickup’s pole pieces, I screw them all in halfway. Then if a string needs to be louder or softer, I can adjust the pole pieces as needed. If they’d all been screwed out, I couldn’t make them louder. If they’d been screwed all the way in, I couldn’t make them softer. It’s easier to tweak preset levels if they’re already close to what you want.

 

The following is intended for those who are familiar with recording, editing, or mastering audio. If your head explodes, move on to the "About Gain Staging" section in this chapter.

A Partial Solution, Borrowed from Mastering Engineers

A measurement protocol called LUFS (Loudness Unit Full Scale) measures perceived loudness, not absolute loudness. The origin story (every superhero has an origin story, right?) is that the European Broadcast Union (EBU) had enough of mastering engineers making CDs as loud as possible, in their quest to win “the loudness wars.” LUFS measurements allow streaming services like YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music, and others to adjust the volume of various songs to the same perceived level. So, you don’t have to change the volume for every song in a playlist—that Belgian hardcore techno cut from 1998 sounds like it’s the same level as Billie Eilish. The system isn’t perfect, but it’s better than dealing with constant level variations.

 

LUFS meters measure perceived levels. Some DAWs include LUFS meters. Several third-party plug-in meters are available, like the Waves WLM Plus Loudness Meter, or the Youlean Loudness Meter (the company offers a free basic version).

 

The goal with leveling presets is for their outputs to have the same LUFS reading. This is not a panacea! You will almost certainly need to tweak output levels for specific performance situations and musical material. However, having a standard output level makes tweaking easier, because you’ve established a standard. Presets may need to be either louder or softer than the standard.

Setting the Output Level

If you don’t care about whether the preset has the same perceived level as a dry guitar (you don’t need to), adjust the output to whatever sounds right. However, I find comparing the processed sound to the bypassed sound is a useful baseline.

 

Creating consistent preset levels is much easier to do with a computer and Helix Native. Import the presets into Helix Native, tweak them, then transfer them back to your stage devices. Here’s the process:

 

1. Set the Helix Native input and output levels to 0.0, and don’t touch them. You’ll make any needed input or output level adjustments in the preset itself.

2. Record a 15-30 second or so clip of bypassed guitar playing chords, without any major pauses, and another clip with 15-30 seconds of single notes, also without major pauses. For bass presets, record some bass lines.

3. Insert an LUFS meter after Helix Native. Depending on the preset, loop the chord or single note clip at least two or three times with Helix bypassed. Check the LUFS reading.

4. After enabling Helix, reset the LUFS meter, and again play the same loop at least two or three times. Adjust levels within the preset to hit the same target LUFS reading.

5. Whenever you change the preset level, reset the LUFS meter reading before playing back audio into Helix.

6. Use your ears to do any final output level edits, based on the musical context.

 

Tip: Most LUFS meters measure the instantaneous LUFS level as well as an average level over time. If you play the loop through a few times, the average level will settle to a final value, whether bypassed or through an effect. This is the reading you want to use, not the instantaneous one.

 

Note that this isn’t an exact science. The object is for your presets to have a standard, baseline level. That way, when you get to the gig, massive tweaking probably won’t be needed.

[DunedinDragon]

I think it's important to bear in mind that the OP's post was prompted specifically by the live performance soundman's need to have a consistent signal level coming into the board, not about loudness, and those are two separate issues.  Volume or loudness is pretty much irrelevant when you're going direct from the Helix into a mixing board as the OP is doing.  Volume/Loudness will be controlled by the channel faders on the mixing board and will be adjusted relative to the other instruments and voices on their various channels.  What needs to be managed from the Helix when going direct is easily controlled by adjusting the level on the output block which can be measured by simply selecting the output block and examining the signal meter readings on the Helix unit.  It doesn't really matter what that actual level is as long as it's consistent preset to preset or snapshot to snapshot.  The soundman will make the appropriate adjustments on the gain/trim knob to get the signal where he/she needs it to be in order to be consistent with the rest of the instruments and voices.  Only then will they concern themselves with volume levels both for mains and for monitors via the faders.

[craiganderton]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:19 AM, DunedinDragon said:

I think it's important to bear in mind that the OP's post was prompted specifically by the live performance soundman's need to have a consistent signal level coming into the board, not about loudness, and those are two separate issues.

 

Good point, I guess the solution depends on whether the FOH mixer is more concerned about peak levels because of distortion issues, or average (perceived) levels so that when a sound appears, there doesn't have to be a massive change in the fader setting. (This assumes the rest of the band plays at a consistent level, and it's mostly the guitar player's levels that concern the FOH mixer). 

[DunedinDragon]

On 6/16/2023 at 11:50 AM, craiganderton said:

 

Good point, I guess the solution depends on whether the FOH mixer is more concerned about peak levels because of distortion issues, or average (perceived) levels so that when a sound appears, there doesn't have to be a massive change in the fader setting. (This assumes the rest of the band plays at a consistent level, and it's mostly the guitar player's levels that concern the FOH mixer). 

Peak levels are pretty much the basic core of live music gain staging for ALL channels.  Perceived levels have always been more the domain of broadcast or recorded music.  Pre fader signal levels have always been important but became much more important as we moved into digital equipment.  Fortunately in recent year the mixing board technology has become a bit more forgiving in that regard, but it always comes at the price of automatic limiters that get engaged on the signal once it exceeds certain boundaries.  A VERY bad thing in a live performance for dynamics.  Generally speaking once you get your signal levels gain staged appropriately the fader positions pretty much fall in line and are relative to where the channel sits in the mix for most live setups which is ultimately the job definition for the soundman.