Helix floor and the original marshall amplifier sound

[albertorss]

Hello community,

 

we have just bought LINE 6 HELIX FLOOR and we are trying to discover it 

The device is actually connected to a Marshall amplifier SL5 Slash signature in the traditional way: guitar in + 1/4 out and set it up as instrument without any additional effect activated, just the guitar through the device to the amplifier 

The issue is related to the sound generated by the amplifier (in particolar if plugged to the second channel/distortion) when the guitar is connected as above, infact it seems to lose an important part of the GAIN that normally, when the guitar is direct connected to the amplifier, it constitutes one of the most important characteristic of this AMPLI 

We are wondering if something else should be set it up or if instead HELIX  is changing significatelly the original sound of this Marshall 

Any comment, advice or similar experiences to share from your side

 

Thanks for your attention and support 

Looking forward to receiving your reply 

[rd2rk]

Global Settings>Ins/Outs>

Guitar In Pad = OFF

1/4" Outputs = INST

 

Global Settings>Preferences>

Auto Impedance = First Enabled

 

Preset Input Block 

Input Gate = OFF

Guitar In-Z = Auto

Input Gate = OFF

 

Preset Output Block>Level = 0db

 

Make sure that the Global EQ is BYPASSED.

 

Make sure you're using a quality Instrument cable between the Helix and the Marshall.

 

If there's still a difference change the Preset Input Block>Guitar In-Z = 1M Ohm.

 

If there's still a difference you'll need to provide sound samples for comparison.

[albertorss]

Hello rd2rk,

 

I applied all the settings suggested but nothing chage, the sound loses almost completely the original gain transforming it in a unrecognizable plastic crunch 

If you remove the cable from HELIX device putting the same cable into the amplifier, then the original sound magically come back with all the GAIN expected 

I swapped and changed more than one time both the cables (IN/OUT)

Again I'm struggling to understand how and why HELIX should transform the original sound of the amplifier if nothing is still activated there

I can understand that some impedence value could change there, but I'm ptretty sure that it should be adjustable somehow

 

Any further suggest ?

Do you think I should bring back the device to the dealer?

I'm pretty worried and disappointed 

 

Looking forward to your reply

Thanks

 

[rd2rk]

On 12/14/2023 at 6:29 PM, albertorss said:

Hello rd2rk,

 

I applied all the settings suggested but nothing chage, the sound loses almost completely the original gain transforming it in a unrecognizable plastic crunch 

If you remove the cable from HELIX device putting the same cable into the amplifier, then the original sound magically come back with all the GAIN expected 

I swapped and changed more than one time both the cables (IN/OUT)

Again I'm struggling to understand how and why HELIX should transform the original sound of the amplifier if nothing is still activated there

I can understand that some impedence value could change there, but I'm ptretty sure that it should be adjustable somehow

 

Any further suggest ?

Do you think I should bring back the device to the dealer?

I'm pretty worried and disappointed 

 

Looking forward to your reply

Thanks

 

 

Closest I can come to an apples-to-apples comparison:

 

Amp - Catalyst100 on the CRUNCH (aka Voltage - the Marshally amp) setting, all knobs at noon - crunchy.

 

Helix settings as described except the Input Block Input-Z set to 1M - AFAIK that's the same pickup load as plugging directly into the Cat's Input, but also tried with it set to AUTO. Helix preset Input set to GUITAR, but same result on MULTI.

 

Switching between a 6' cable from Guitar Output to the Helix Input and an 18' cable direct to the Cat (the Cat is across the room from the Helix) - actually the same cable swapped from the Helix 1/4" output to the Guitar Output.

 

IOW, the only difference is that when the Helix is in the circuit there's an additional 6' cable between the guitar (HSS Strat on the bridge PU) and the Helix Input.

New Preset (blank, no blocks). Helix 1/4" Out set to INST in Global Settings.

 

Sounds the same to me. If anything, I'm actually getting very slightly MORE gain thru the Helix than direct to the Cat's Input, but I'm not even sure it's real, it's that slight a difference.

 

The only way I was able to get close to what you're experiencing was to set the Input-Z to 10k Ohm, but at Auto or 1M Ohm there's no real difference.

 

Maybe take it back to the dealer and try it through a different amp? That shouldn't matter, but short of having hands-on your rig, IDK what else to try.

If the store has a Demo unit you could compare it to yours. The odds of two Helixes having this problem are pretty low.

 

All I can add is that this is the first time I've seen this problem reported anywhere, and there's a LOT of Helixes out there!

The TGP main Helix thread has nearly 74,000 posts!

 

Good Luck!

 

 

 

 

 

[albertorss]

Thanks again for your prompt reply

 

I'll investigate better until the end the case coming back to you as soon as I have somting tanglible to share, even if rare it could be usefullsei disponisei disponsei  to some other users 

In the meanwhile if something new comes to mind please contact me immediately

 

I still can't understand how this can happens in a so powerful machine 

 

Have a nice rest of the day

Alberto

[albertorss]

Just  a last curiosity

Why 2 different sections of cable between I/O

I mean Guitar INPUT cable vs HELIX machine = 6' and HELIX OUTPUT cable vs CAT100 = 18'

If I have wrong undestood please corret me 

 

Grazie

[albertorss]

-ok sorry you mentioned the lenght and not the diameter

:)

[codamedia]

On 12/14/2023 at 7:29 PM, albertorss said:

I can understand that some impedance value could change there, but I'm pretty sure that it should be adjustable somehow

 

Yes it is adjustable per preset on the input block. The behavior of "auto" is adjusted in global settings IIRC. 

 

If this is set to AUTO then you may be getting some unpredictable results depending on the first effect in the chain. By default AUTO uses the first effect in the chain whether it's on or off.  Also, if this is set to a low fixed value then the high end and gain will be gone. Set it to 1M as suggested by rd2rk and the surprises are gone.

 

[albertorss]

Grazie for your additional suggestion C

Just for completion of info I'm using an empty preset, no effect put in the chain during this test at all

The idea was to start from the original sound of my Marshall SL5 adding progressively some effect to improve or better renew the sound by HELIX

Unfortunately I'm facing this annoying sound issue and I'm struggling to understand how to keep out 

I've already modified this GUITAR IN-Z in AUTO and even in 1M without any appreciable result

I'm quite desperate even if I'm filling that it can't be the machine or better that some tuning is still probably missing 

The question is, what exactly

I'm aware that it's not simple provide remote troubleshooting to user like me, but please if you any further idea don't hesitate to come back to me again

 

Thanks 

Alberto

[PaulTBaker]

I don't have this setup, so forgive if this is totally off base.  It sounds like what you want to do is use the 4 cable method.... which is supposed to let you keep the sound of your amp as well as take advantage of what the helix can offer.  Have you looked into that?

[cruisinon2]

On 12/15/2023 at 12:30 PM, PaulTBaker said:

I don't have this setup, so forgive if this is totally off base.  It sounds like what you want to do is use the 4 cable method.... which is supposed to let you keep the sound of your amp as well as take advantage of what the helix can offer.  Have you looked into that?

 

No can do... from what I can see that amp has no FX loop

[rd2rk]

Just one last thought before you go back to the dealer - are you certain that you are plugging your guitar into the GUITAR INPUT and not the AUX INPUT?

[Schmalle]

On 12/14/2023 at 4:31 AM, rd2rk said:

Global Settings>Ins/Outs>

Guitar In Pad = OFF

1/4" Outputs = INST

 

Global Settings>Preferences>

Auto Impedance = First Enabled

 

Preset Input Block 

Input Gate = OFF

Guitar In-Z = Auto

Input Gate = OFF

 

Preset Output Block>Level = 0db

 

Make sure that the Global EQ is BYPASSED.

 

Make sure you're using a quality Instrument cable between the Helix and the Marshall.

 

If there's still a difference change the Preset Input Block>Guitar In-Z = 1M Ohm.

 

If there's still a difference you'll need to provide sound samples for comparison.

Excellent list - one thing to add:

Helix' volume knob should be cranked to ensure unity gain.

[rd2rk]

On 12/15/2023 at 3:35 PM, Schmalle said:

Excellent list - one thing to add:

Helix' volume knob should be cranked to ensure unity gain.

 

This!^^^^^

 

I didn't think to mention it because I always just disable (by re-assigning) the BIG KNOB, which results in Unity Gain.

Could very well be OP's problem, as this is a very poorly understood concept.

 

@albertorsstake note!

[albertorss]

Hello to all,

 

R2RK, I of course checked each time GUITAR IN as correct plug, but you were right to take that into consideration as it's the basic of a good troubleshooting 

Could you please better explain your last mention please: 

"I always just disable (by re-assigning) the BIG KNOB, which results in Unity Gain + OP problem"

 

Paul, about 4 cable method, yes I do by an Hughs and Kettner additional header (there SEND and RETURN plugs are present)

Nothing change in term of quality sound

 

Schmalle, icreasing the BIG KNOB actually the GAIN improve 

There is no different way to increase the HELIX output signal strenght without maintaining the volume knob cranked ??

 

Looking forward to receiving your next reply

 

 

[rd2rk]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:56 PM, albertorss said:

R2RK, I of course checked each time GUITAR IN as correct plug, but you were right to take that into consideration as it's the basic of a good troubleshooting 

Could you please better explain your last mention please: 

"I always just disable (by re-assigning) the BIG KNOB, which results in Unity Gain + OP problem"

 

Unity Gain (0db) means that at that point in the signal chain the signal is neither being boosted nor cut.

The BIG KNOB (Volume) is Unity (0db) at the maximum setting. At less than max it CUTS the output level.

It is also Unity when it is DISABLED. To do that:

 

Global Settings>Ins/Outs>Volume Knob Controls = anything OTHER than the Outputs that you are using.

 

So, if you're using the 1/4" Outs and never use DIGITAL, set it to DIGITAL.

 

This way you always know what the output level is (Unity) and aren't unpleasantly surprised when you drag the guitar cable over the knob or set it differently for some reason and forget that you changed it.

[rd2rk]

On 12/15/2023 at 4:56 PM, albertorss said:

There is no different way to increase the HELIX output signal strenght without maintaining the volume knob cranked ??

 

 

You can use a GAIN block (+6db max boost) or the OUTPUT Block Level.

You can also use the Channel Level in the Helix Amp Block, but the default level is set to <>level the amps across the board, and increasing it can adversely affect the headroom of any FX that follow the amp. Minor changes shouldn't be a problem, as most of the Helix FX have sufficient headroom, but the FX will become louder unless you compensate by changing the levels in those FX Blocks. In most cases, you shouldn't need to mess with any of those levels, as the strength of the final Ouput level should be entirely sufficient for your use case.

 

For a CLEAN boost for solos I either use a GAIN Block last in the chain assigned to a FS (or Snapshot) and set to +3-4db.

If I'm short blocks in a "kitchen sink" preset I do the same at the Output Block.