POD Go: Harsh transition when switching from high gain to clean, and back

[cdtreadwell429]

Hey everyone, maybe someone can help me with this:
 

On my POD Go, when I switch from a very high gain snapshot to a clean snapshot (turning down the gain/drive/master, etc) I get this ugly “fwooomp” sound, it’s hard to describe. It happens going from clean to high gain, too. I am currently using a Cali IV Lead to utilize the headroom. But it happens using the Badonk, also. What is happening here and how can I make it a smoother transition? I love going from chug to sparkly clean but it’s like the POD Go just can’t handle such a drastic gain change.

 

I’ve been searching online to see if anyone else has run into this and can’t seem to find anything. Could it be an impedance issue?

[silverhead]

That’s not unusual when there are significant changes in gain between snapshots. It mimics exactly what would happen using real-world physical amps if such changes were applied instantaneously. I expect the only way to make a smoother transition is to reduce the severity of the gain changes.

 

I don’t think it has anything to do with impedance.

[cdtreadwell429]

Thanks for the reply, silverhead.

 

Maybe the POD Go is just not the best option for me. Maybe I need something that can have 2 amps in the signal path, one a clean channel and one a dirty channel. And of course enough DSP to process that. Do you think a smoother transition could be acquired that way?

 

I also need MIDI out to control an external amp so I’m thinking of trying the Stomp XL or Helix LT.

[cruisinon2]

On 9/26/2024 at 10:54 AM, cdtreadwell429 said:

 

 

the reply, silverhead.Maybe the POD Go is just not the best option for me. Maybe I need something that can have 2 amps in the signal path, one a clean channel and one a dirty channel. And of course enough DSP to process that. Do you think a smoother transition could be acquired that way?

 

 

 

No...the problem is that it's an abrupt and drastic change between two sounds with vastly different gain structures, it has nothing to do with what amp model produces which tone. And in this case everything ultimately has the same origin anyway, regardless of how things are visually represented in the signal chain. One, two, or ten amp models, it makes no difference...it's all one computer generating generating everything you hear.

 

Gain staging presets takes practice. When you get weird results like this, go through each block in the chain and look at the input and output levels...you may have inadvertently boosted an output stage somewhere.

[cdtreadwell429]

Well, in order to level out my snapshots (clean and dirty) I use the level in my compressor. I have to crank it on the clean snapshot.  I can’t get enough volume at the amp channel volume parameter to be level with my gain/drive snapshot. Maybe that is it? 
 

If I turn down the channel volume on the dirty snapshot I won’t have to use the compressor or EQ level for the clean. Maybe that will help?

[silverhead]

Yes, that will probably help. Use the amp Drive, Channel and Master levels to balance the gain structure.

[cdtreadwell429]

Awesome. I’ll try that.

 

Thanks for your help.

[silverhead]

You could also try increasing the Channel volume on your clean tone to max and reduce the amp parameters on your dirty tone. If it’s not loud or dirty enough consider adding some overdrive or distortion FX blocks to the dirty tone. Keep their output levels at default unless you really need to crank them. Be cautious about that to avoid the harsh transitions. You could also try adding a Gain block to the clean tone and turn it off in the dirty snapshot. There’s also a Level parameter in the Output block that can be assigned to snapshots. Increase it in the clean preset.

[cdtreadwell429]

Thanks!

 

Yes, the clean snapshots are maxed on the amp channel level. And I’m out of free blocks, but I could probably move some stuff around. 

 

I didn’t think about adjusting the output block within a snapshot! I just defaulted to thinking it would affect all levels in the preset. You don’t think it would cause the same problem with the gain staging?

 

Great recommendations!

[grdGo33]

On 9/26/2024 at 9:53 AM, silverhead said:

It mimics exactly what would happen using real-world physical amps if such changes were applied instantaneously.

 

I don't think it does.  From what was able to gather from my experiments, it's like Pod Go switches each setting sequentially rather than instantly.  So if your block volumes vary a lot between snapshot, the worse it gets.  Ex; you could have 2 effects boost the volume significantly before the 3rd block reducing the volume, and this will result in an awful ear blowing during snapshot switching; the volume gets from 5 to 8 to 12 and then go back down to 5.

 

On 9/26/2024 at 6:10 PM, cdtreadwell429 said:

Thanks!

 

Yes, the clean snapshots are maxed on the amp channel level. And I’m out of free blocks, but I could probably move some stuff around. 

 

I didn’t think about adjusting the output block within a snapshot! I just defaulted to thinking it would affect all levels in the preset. You don’t think it would cause the same problem with the gain staging?

 

Great recommendations!

 

Any luck?  For myself, I wasn't able to determine exactly what causes the issue, some snapshots switch fine while others cause sound explosions of different degrees, but my conclusion is that ...   It's unpredictable and rather unfixable, it's just something Pod Go sucks at;  snapshot transitions.

 

That is, the more volume varies between the blocks of different snapshots, the more Pod Go will do stupid things during snapshot transitions.  If you want to minimize it, not sure how you'd do it...  But again, my personal conclusion = don't try to have a clean sound and a very dirty sound in the same patch, as snapshot transitions go haywire.

[theElevators]

On 9/26/2024 at 9:23 AM, cdtreadwell429 said:

Hey everyone, maybe someone can help me with this:
 

On my POD Go, when I switch from a very high gain snapshot to a clean snapshot (turning down the gain/drive/master, etc) I get this ugly “fwooomp” sound, it’s hard to describe. It happens going from clean to high gain, too. I am currently using a Cali IV Lead to utilize the headroom. But it happens using the Badonk, also. What is happening here and how can I make it a smoother transition? I love going from chug to sparkly clean but it’s like the POD Go just can’t handle such a drastic gain change.

 

I’ve been searching online to see if anyone else has run into this and can’t seem to find anything. Could it be an impedance issue?

That's the unfortunate reality of how HX products work.  You can instead use a volume cut technique which I personally use--take the first block and assign it to a gain block, where you have "negative gain" to simulate rolling down of the volume knob.  I have been using that technique for several years.  Sometimes I supplement the volume cut with a compressor that gets turned on in the clean snapshot. 

[cdtreadwell429]

Thanks for all your responses. I’m having no luck with any of the techniques recommended. I am finding it is a direct result of the amount of drive in the amp. A drastic increase or reduction causes it. At least on the modern style high gain amps I’ve tried. 
 

I’m wondering if this is only on the POD Go or do other Helix processors have the same issue? I am thinking about upgrading to a Helix LT because I need MIDI output capabilities anyway. But if it will have the same problem I may just go with a different brand.

[cdtreadwell429]

On 9/28/2024 at 3:33 PM, theElevators said:

That's the unfortunate reality of how HX products work.  You can instead use a volume cut technique which I personally use--take the first block and assign it to a gain block, where you have "negative gain" to simulate rolling down of the volume knob.  I have been using that technique for several years.  Sometimes I supplement the volume cut with a compressor that gets turned on in the clean snapshot. 

You say HX products, do you mean only HX Stomp, XL, HX Effects, etc? Or do you think the Helix Floor and Helix LT would have this problem, too?

[theElevators]

On 9/29/2024 at 8:48 PM, cdtreadwell429 said:

You say HX products, do you mean only HX Stomp, XL, HX Effects, etc? Or do you think the Helix Floor and Helix LT would have this problem, too?

All Line 6 products you mentioned have this problem: various sounds: boing/click/slap/crash are all heard to some extent when changing the impedence, turning on/off the compressor, changing amp settings/bypassing/unbypassing the amp. 

 

Another trick I sometimes use is to simply stop playing before switching the snapshot and cover up the gap with a spillover delay.  In other words, I have a delay where the spillover is enabled.  In first snapshot the delay is on but mixed at 0%.  In the second snapshot the delay is off and mixed at like 50%.  As the delay gets turned off, it keeps playing the trails.  So that's what I sometimes do to "glue" 2 parts together when I can't get rid of the annoying sound. 

[silverhead]

On 9/29/2024 at 11:48 PM, theElevators said:

All Line 6 products you mentioned have this problem: …

Problem? Maybe, but I suspect all real-world physical amps and analog pedals would also behave the same if it were possible to make those parameter changes simultaneously while continuing to play.

 

Your tricks are very helpful.

[grdGo33]

On 9/30/2024 at 8:27 AM, silverhead said:

Problem? Maybe, but I suspect all real-world physical amps and analog pedals would also behave the same if it were possible to make those parameter changes simultaneously while continuing to play.

 

How?!  An analog pedal would not behave this way, and neither would an amp....  

 

For instance, say you had 3 settings on an analog pedal: 

Gain / Volume / tone.   

Dial settings 1:  5/5/5, results in volume = 50dB. 

Dial settings 2:  2/8/5 = 50dB.  

 

If you could instantly go from 1st values to 2nd values, you would go to/from 50dB to 50dB.  Your pedal output would send a ~50dB signal either way.  Your amp wouldn't know the difference.   You would not get SPL screw ups.  That's exactly what the Go should be doing.

 

The thing is like I was saying, Go seems like it doesn't do it instantly, it does it sequentially, so say you were at 2/8/5 and wanted to go to 5/5/5, it would go turn up the 1st dial: 5/8/5 then lower the 2nd dial 5/5/5, so the time between turning the 1st dial and the 2nd dial is where you're getting an massive offensive SPL gain; huge sound increase when switching snapshots.

 

The exact same thing would happen with an amp.  If you could instantly switch input volume & gain, you would get no volume discrepancy, but in the real world, if you had to adjust every dial sequentially; one by one; then you would inevitably get either SPL increase or SPL reduction during switching snapshots; which is exactly what we're getting with Go!

 

Adding a compressor would make no difference.  Ex: 

snapshot 1:  Compressor 2/5/3/8 settings + OD 5/5/5 = 50dB

snapshot 2:  Compressor 5/1/6/3 settings + OD 9/6/5 = 50dB

snapshot 3:  Compressor off + OD 9/9/5 = 50dB

 

If you were switching everything simultaneously, you would get no volume disparity.  But if you had to switch parameter by parameter sequentially, then you'd have to be careful in what order you would do so.

 

And to my knowledge, no way to control which parameter is changed first by PGO.  Feels entirely random, but in my experience; the greatest the volume disparities and the greater the values change, the worse it can get.  Maybe there's an order; 1st block to last block, or maybe it's last block to first block.. 

 

----------------------------

[edit]  To think more on that issue though, some effects might be problematic.  For instance...  Things that store inputs and whose outputs could be affected by change.  Like reverbs and delays...   Ex;   reverb dials = in/out levels, you've played a 50dB chord which it's going to play in the next 0.1s, if you then switch snapshot and change the in/out to -10dB/+10dB, then you're in trouble, because the 'recorded' chord was full volume, and now your reverb will play it with +10dB, your next chord will be fine though.