HD500X and Logidy EPSI

[dutchgin]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone out there is using the Logidy EPSI for IR's and if so, how do you have your signal chain programmed . I know I have to use the input/output block, but was wondering where would I place it in the signal chain?

 

Thanks

[joel_brown]

I tried it for cab IRs and returned it after a week.  Logidy said they get a lot of returns from Line6 customers.  It sounded nice but didn't sound much, if any, better that then cabs already in the PODHD.  I didn't try the Reverb IRs.  Not sure which one you're asking about.

[bboulay769]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone out there is using the Logidy EPSI for IR's and if so, how do you have your signal chain programmed . I know I have to use the input/output block, but was wondering where would I place it in the signal chain?

 

Thanks

I have the Reverb unit in the FX Loop. I have the Cabinet IRs as well, but haven't tried it yet. From what I have read people didn't find much difference using the IR's that come with the EPSI, but loading IRs from other libraries might. I was planning to do the same with the Cab IR Pedal (in FX loop). I haven't figured out how to use both yet (I am thinking that I will put the Cab IR in front of the Reverb one, but I guess I will just have to try different combos). I have the FX loop for the Verb pedal at the end of the chain. Not sure how that will work with the Cab IRs. I am hearing conflicting opinions on whether to put the Cabs right after the amp models or after the post-amp effects.

[joel_brown]

I used both the Logidy cab IRs and 3rd party.  I still returned it.  As I said, it just wasn't much if any better than what comes in the PODHD.  Maybe I just didn't find the right IR but I tried a lot of them.

[rafgys]

Dutchgin,

 

I've got 3 of these EPSI units (for my HD500, HD PRO and HD Desktop :-).

 

Of course, you need a good matching IR file (the Epsi will only sound as good as the IR's you put into it...). It also only has an "instrument level" input (no line level) - which is important to know to get your output level correct.

 

To have a "standard" configuration, I don't use my EPSI's in the loop, but just in the normal output of my POD HD's (since an HD Desktop doesn't have a loop ....).

Also, since the HD Desktop is only line-level output, it's important to set the POD HD output at max. 4.5 (over 4.5 the Epsi starts clipping) - for the HD500 and PRO the "amp output" mode is best suited for the EPSI.

 

I don't know why Joel Brown didn't have good results using the EPSI, but in my case the sound is MASSIVELY better. I'm using the Ownhammer Modern mix libraries (and I've tried almost every IR I could find - so if you still have to buy some IR's, just buy this library, it matches best with the POD HD).

 

All my patches have the cabinet disabled (of course) and I use the POD "STACK" output settings, with high and low both at around "-15" (for single coils around -20, just experiment a bit, but I found it's best to keep both settings equal), and my MID frequency - depending on the guitar I'm using - between 900Hz and 1.6kHz. 

 

I'm using the English Celestion V30 IR's from the Ownhammer Modern Studio library. With these POD output settings and that IR library, I can almost guarantee that you will never ever use the POD HD Cabinets again (I've got the same patches with and without cabinets, and I haven't used my "cab patches" anymore since I got the EPSI's).

In fact, the EPSI made me realize how good the POD HD amp and pre-amp models actually are (and how bad the cabinet emulation is ...).

 

The EPSI can handle very long IR's, and in sound quality/feel is certainly better then any "computer based" VST (such as Torpedo wall of sound or MixIR2).

[alphadog808]

Rafgys,

   I was looking into this as well, got any clips?  I've heard conflicting information that it's great and that it's really not worth it.  Clips would maybe clear that up?

 

In fact, I think there were so many epsi returns that logidy issued a statement saying that their product was NOT made for the line6 HD stuff...or something to that effect.

[rafgys]

Alphadog808,

I'll try to find some time to make a few clips.

 

I've just been reading this thread http://line6.com/support/topic/7974-logidy-c01-impulse-response-w-podhd/ , which includes logidy's response on some (bad) user experiences. I think their response sums it up correctly: results do depend on correct usage of the pedal. As with any "IR-solution", it's supposed to be used with a FRFR system (in my case, I'm using an Opera or Alto Truesonic PA). I wouldn't recommended using it with an amp, since in that the amp is already driving speakers  (so using "speaker simulation" on top of that, wouldn't probably give the same good results).

By the way: I'm also getting very good results using a Markbass BASS amplifier for driving my Marshall 1960AV cabinet using POD HD patches without cabinet emulation (but that's an entirely different story ...).  

 

And you can very well "test before buying" an EPSI with a standard IR loader (such as mixIR2 or Torpedo Wall of Sound) on your pc (as in Logidy's repsonse in that previous thread). So if you can't get good results with a "PC IR loader", don't buy it since the EPSI does exactly the same as a "PC IR loader", but only with better quality (latency/IR length - so an overall better "playing feel" then a pc-based solution).

 

It all comes down to finding the correct IR (which in my case is the Celestion v30-EN of the Ownhammer Modern mix library), and also very important: using the correct output settings (in my case, a bit contradictiory, with the STACK output settings in case of "direct out") and output level (as I mentioned before, it's an "instrument-level" device). But if used correctly, it does makes a big difference.

I have the exact same two sound banks on my PODs, but one with my "best matching POD HD cab", one without CAB's. I use the same Ownhammer IR for ALL of my patches (clean/crunch/rock) without CAB, and they all sound a lot better (in some cases, mainly for the clean tones, the difference to my ears is enormous - a lot more open, less compressed a lot more detail and much less "clipping"). For rock/metal you can get good results with the default cabinets, but for crunch/clean types of sound, no single POD cabinet, with no amount of IR tweaking (and I've tried every single hint from Meambobbo's great userguide) can get results that come close to that Ownhammer impulse.

[Akeron]

rafgys so for you there's a big difference in sound between the Redwirez IRs and the Ownhammer ones? Because I've tried a ton of free ones and ended up giving a slight preference to the Redwirez, but even though I've noticed a concrete difference in some aspects using them, like an increased resonance and a more "open" sound, the base of the distortion remained more or less the same I get with the stock cabs of the POD. Don't know if that is a problem of the IR loader (I use LeCab), or the resolution of the IR...

[rafgys]

Akeron,

 

yes, I've also bought the complete Redwirez library, and some of the other Ownhammer ones (the Mesa high gain libraries), and tested with the free Clark Kent, Guitarhacks and Catharsis libraries.

But the Ownhammer Modern mix library "412-GTR MAR-CB MIX Modern Speaker Collection" is definitely the one you want. That really does make a big difference (even compared to the other Ownhammer libraries).

[Akeron]

Thanks. So it seems many people say they're really that good. At this point the only missing part is listening to some comparison clips of medium gain chords, the critical factor for me :)

[rafgys]

Alphadog,

 

just made some clips using my Logidy loaded with the Ownhammer Celestion V30 IR (sorry - no time to compare with the same patch using POD HD Cab's - but you'll get the idea of what type of sound is possible just with the logidy and VERY BASIC pod patches).

 

ALL these clips are using the exact same POD HD output settings (stack front, mid focus on 1,6KHz, since my PRS Custom 24 is "mid heavy", I put the mid-focus a bit higher then usual, and lows on -21, highs on -17 -highs are also a bit less decreased compared to the lows, because of the vintage 57/08 pickup outputs). As explained before, I can use the POD HD output settings to "tailor" my output depending on my guitar and on the speaker I'm using, which gives you the option to change output setting when using this setup Live in case you have to adapt your output settings to the PA system that's used.

 

I'm mostly into "old school rock/punk rock", so most of my patches are of the old school rock type. But they are all very BASIC patches, with often just the amp and one distortion + one reverb or delay pedal. So nothing fancy and no use of 10 equalizer settings to get my sound right (I'm using the "Stack Front" output setting to get the EQ right).

If you are using good headphones, pay special attention to the clean examples. It's impossible to get these clean tones with the standard POD HD cabinets. Also: these cleans are from my PRS 57/08 humbuckers - with single coil cleans sound even better.

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/jcm800-screamer

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/blackface-bridge-spring

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/drz-crunch

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/soldano-crunch-tubedrive

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/voxac30-clean

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/divide-heavy-dist-neck

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/jtm45-bluecomp

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/blackface-clean-neck

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/engl-scooped

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/drz-screamer

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/blues-rock

https://soundcloud.com/rafgys/threadplate-mid

[alphadog808]

Hey R, 

   Thanks so much for all the clips, they do sound pretty nice!  I do seem to notice a bit less/no fizz...possibly due to the epsi?  Not sure. I swear I heard alot of it on my hd500...  To be honest tho, without a base(HD500 cabs) to go against, it's kind of hard to tell if they are better, or at least how much.  At any rate, they do sound good!

 

Do you remember how high the master and gain was set on your JCM800?  When I turn the master and gain up on mine, it sounds...terrible...the only way to make it usable is with the mid eq.

[rafgys]

Alphadog,

 

That DEFINITELY is because of the EPSI + Ownhammer IR that I used. After all, getting rid of all that fizz and harshness on the top end, and all those booming lows on the low end, was the reason I started looking for other solutions, like using IR's and hardware CAB solutions.

I also have tested almost every single "hardware cab" solution like the Palmer PDI09, ADA GCS, Behringer GI-100 DI, and MaxZ Speaker sim hardware pedals, which by the way - except for the Behringer - also do sound a lot better then the POD Cab's itself. The PDI09 sounds especially good with a BBE Sonic Stomp in front of it, so if you are looking for a "pedal-based hardware" solution, I would go POD HD => BBE Sonic Stomp => Palmer PDI09 - that setup works really great as well!

 

My JCM800 patch in itself is very basic. Here's my signal chain setup:

 

1) Input: Guitar + Mic (PS: look at Meambobbo's guide, I always use Guitar + Mic as input for my patches, never Guitar/same because that input's way to high for clean patches with a humbucker guitar).

2) Tubescreamer set at Bass/tone/treble/drive/output: 53/52/53/70/44 (so nearly no EQ )

3) JCM800 Pre without CAB set at Drive/bass/mid/treble/pres/volume: 86/50/53/48/50/34 (so again, nearly no EQ - and since there's no POD CAB sim, rest of the settings don't matter. I do have the presence set at 50). 

4) Digital delay (temp sync off, time 440ms, fdback 11, bass+treble at 50, mix 18)

5) That all into the EPSI with Ownhammer "535_OwnHammer_412_MAR-CB_V30-EN_T1_SP.wav" IR, and POD output set at "stack front, lows -21, mid focus at 1.6KHz, highs -17).

6) Into a Focusrite Scarlett USB interface for recording. I'm using my POD HD Desktop to record here (so line out, master volume around 45, into the EPSI input, and the EPSI output into an USB Focusrite Scarlett 18i8 MICROPHONE input for recording - so not a LINE Input, since the EPSI is "instrument level", as I mentioned before). Quickly recorded with audacity (so here, also no changes in EQ, reverb, delays, to make everything sound better in my recording setup).

 

That's it.

So really a very basic patch, nearly no EQ's used whatsover on the screamer and the (pre-) amp model, and the difference in sound compared to the POD HD cab's is very big. Sound's great out of my Opera 402D or Alto TS15 speakers (Opera is more "compressed", the sound of the Alto Truesonic is more like the recorded output).

 

Of course, since I use the j-800 pre model in this case, it's hard to get a real comparison between this patch, and the same patch with a cabinet (since I would have to use the normal j-800 model, and that alone already gives a big difference). But if you want confirmation that the fizz is gone, you can rest assured that it will be.

[alphadog808]

Just a quick update, I got the EPSI yesterday afternoon and was able to spend a couple hours with it.  I'm using ownhammer patches; it's early but I can say that there seems to be a significant difference, in a good way.  Right off the bat, there is alot, and I mean alot less/no fizz around the notes.  That was instantly noticable.  

 

To a layperson like myself, it's almost like the ownhammer stuff adds alot of mids(in a good way) without giving it the blanket over the amp feel.  The only bad thing is there are so many IRs to choose from, it just adds to the complexity of the system.  

[alphadog808]

Thanks for the update. Keep us posted and if possible, some comparison clips between the HD500X cabs and the EPSI. Congratulations with the new toy, I love new things to play with!

Well, it's been about a week, and I was able to get the epsi to work in the loop; I had it after the hd500 previously.

 

I found out that the epsi tends to clip pretty easy, so I lowered the send(epsi input) and cranked up the return(signal back to the hd500) and it sounds great. At some point I should try to make some clips to convey the difference, but at the same time tone is a personal preference, so what I like you might not and vice versa.

 

As a general review, if you had any problems dialing in a tone due to fizziness, etc, the epsi(and ownhammer IRs-all I tried) will fix that immediately.  What I noticed is what took me hours of tweaking and adding EQs is now unnecessary.  Things just come together faster, imho.  I have since removed all my EQs from my chain and it sounds better than it did before.  

 

I revisited some of my old patches that went right to my PA the other day and noticed that they sounded *terrible* next to the epsi.  Very thin and lots of fizz.  I didn't think my original patches sounded too bad at the time, but now, side by side, it's hard to believe I thought those patches were ok/good.  

 

Just my mini review of the epsi, I'm pretty sure any HDx00 user would consider it a tone upgrade.  

 

EDIT...I made 3 quick clips to show my point.  Sorry the gain is so high, but that is the patch I was working with.   Please read the descriptions in the link to get more info.

 

1) My original JCm800 patch before I had an epsi.

https://soundcloud.com/alphadog808/original-jcm800-patchno-epsi

 

2) My JCM800 patch with epsi in the effects loop.

https://soundcloud.com/alphadog808/jcm800-patch-with-epsi-on

 

3) For kicks, my JCM800 EPSI patch, but with EPSI off.  Just to show that the Epsi does alot.

https://soundcloud.com/alphadog808/jcm800-patch-epsi-patch-with-epsi-off

 

Hope it helps!

[joel_brown]

After reading the posts in this thread, I may not have had good results with the EPSI for a couple reasons.

 

1) I didn't know about reducing the output volume on the PODHD Desktop to around 4.5 due to the EPSI clipping.

2) I don't use an FRFR system.  I plug into the FX return of a Marshall into a 4x12 cab.

 

The sound clips that alphadog808 posted definitely show a big improvement in tone.

[joel_brown]

I already sent it back but I'm tempted to buy it again. 

 

The EPSI sounded good for me, just not much better that the PODHD's cabs.  But from what they said about the output volume, I should have been clipping the EPSI like crazy when I used it - and it still sounded good.  After hearing those sound clips and reading what they did, everyone should run out and buy an EPSI.

[alphadog808]

Joel,

One thing I forgot to mention was that before the epsi I was NOT using the preamp models. After the epsi, I changed to the preamp models, I'm sure that made a diff. Also, instead of studio direct, I now use stack front. Rafgys turned me onto that. I don't think it made too much of a difference tho, my old patches still sounded bad with the stack front settings.

 

If you send me one of your patches and I have time, I can quickly record your patch and then turn off the cab and turn on the epsi. It might not be a great test as I won't touch any of your settings, but you'll get an idea...?

[joel_brown]

The typical tone I use is here www.ChildrenOfTheGraveBand.com/BlackSabbath.hbe

[alphadog808]

The typical tone I use is here www.ChildrenOfTheGraveBand.com/BlackSabbath.hbe

 

Sorry to those that might have seen my earlier post about 15 minutes ago, come to find out I made a mistake in the recording...both tracks were with the epsi!  I was wondering why things sounded so similar in the recording but so different when I was playing.   :lol:

 

Anyways...here is the REAL tracks.  

 

Read the details in soundcloud if you are interested, but in a nutshell, both patches are the same, the only thing I did was use the epsi or the line6 cabs.  I had to bring the loop send down -10db as the epsi was clipping and brought the return up +10db.

 

Joel's patch NO epsi...Line6's XXL cab IR.

https://soundcloud.com/alphadog808/joel-no-epsi

 

Joel's patch with epsi...ownhammer celestion silver IR.

https://soundcloud.com/alphadog808/joel-epsi

 

Hope it helps!

[radatats]

I agree these comparisons the epsi wins (or rather the Ownhammer IR's win).  However, what happens when you are not recording but actually running through real cabs?  Is the difference still there?

 

Have you tried the RedWirez cab IR's?  Are the Ownhammers any better?

 

Also, I understand the cab swap part, not sure I understand why you are using pre models rather than full models.  Can you explain why you went that route or was it just because you preferred the way it sounds?

 

Thanks!

[alphadog808]

I haven't tried the epsi through a full cab.  I started with the hd500 through a blues jr(no effects loop) with a cannibus rex speaker.  Then I moved to an alto 1x12.  It was better-I didn't have to make patches for the amp and one for my headphones/jamhub.  Then I added the epsi.  I can only say that when playing through the alto, the difference because of the epsi is still there.  Things sound much tighter, punchier, and more authentic; just..better.

 

I haven't tried the redwirez or any other IRs other than the ownhammers.  I heard good things about them so I decided to start there.  Just within the ownhammer stuff, there are a ton of good/different IRs, some more subtle than others.  It just depends what you want; as it stands, I go back and forth between certain IRs, just depends how I feel, I guess.  I have only scratched the surface on those, I have only messed with the mixes, not the mic versions.  It can be easy to get bogged down and lost in the IR stuff if you let it.

 

As for why I chose the preamps, for myself, I noticed that things just sounded better that way(to me); the IRs have the power section included, so I assumed that was right.  To be honest, once I got the epsi, I didn't mess around too much between the preamp and regular models.  IIRC, the regular amp and the epsi stuff on together felt like it was almost too much.  For Joel's patch, he had a preamp version, so I just went with that.

 

I'm still a n00b to the hd500 and modeling, so I'm sure my patches could be better, but it's nice that I don't always feel like something is missing or sounds wrong.  I'm finally playing more than tweaking, so that is nice!

[radatats]

thanks! a lot of good stuff there... I hadn't considered the IR had power section included... hmmm... definitely got my interest.

[joel_brown]

Thanks Alphadog808 for doing that comparison using my patch.  The EPSI definitely made it sound much better. 

[alphadog808]

Thanks Alphadog808 for doing that comparison using my patch. The EPSI definitely made it sound much better.

 

No problem, glad I could help! I didn't want to say the epsi version was better and skew your opinion, but I too thought it was pretty obvious off the bat. Easy to tell the difference.

[Starwaves]

Could you guys describe how you hook the Epsi upwith the POD HD 500? I'm really interested in getting one after hearing your results with them. I have all the Redwirez BIG BOX IR's and I would love to use them with this unit instead of MIX IR2 to reduce CPU on my computer and to have good cab IR options for Live use.. How many IR can been used at once and how many adjustment parameters are available when you upload Ownhammer or Redwirez IR's? 

[alphadog808]

I've had mine both in the loop and after the hd500. I ended up going through the loop as I wanted to be able to use any/all outputs on the hd500. I'm very unfamiliar with IRs; I just load one type-a mono version. It can work with stereo as well. Afaik, there is no editing of the IR through the epsi. There is a rudimentary hi and lo pass filter and volume, but that is it. I think if you can modify the IR how you want it separately then load it up as a wav file you'll be good.

[joel_brown]

I think someone should post this info over at EPSI so they can help their Line6 customers.  If they had given this info when I sent mine back, I would have kept it.

[joel_brown]

FYI - I sent an email to Logidy letting them know about the things found in this post.  Hopefully they will pass this on to any of their Line6 users having difficulty getting it to sound good.

[Smashcraaft]

Sorry to those that might have seen my earlier post about 15 minutes ago, come to find out I made a mistake in the recording...both tracks were with the epsi!  I was wondering why things sounded so similar in the recording but so different when I was playing.   :lol:

 

Anyways...here is the REAL tracks.  

 

Read the details in soundcloud if you are interested, but in a nutshell, both patches are the same, the only thing I did was use the epsi or the line6 cabs.  I had to bring the loop send down -10db as the epsi was clipping and brought the return up +10db.

 

Joel's patch NO epsi...Line6's XXL cab IR.

https://soundcloud.com/alphadog808/joel-no-epsi

 

Joel's patch with epsi...ownhammer celestion silver IR.

https://soundcloud.com/alphadog808/joel-epsi

 

Hope it helps!

Hm. I do wonder more why the tone without (!) Epsi is sounding so muff? By the time I will take a look at the original patch and try to improve it.

Meanwhile any new or further experiences using an external IR-device like the Logidy Epsi, Torpedo Cabs or MT Pangaea CP-100?

Do you still think is it worth the costs?

[JTSC777]

While of course far from the same thing I recently purchased one of those tiny A/DA micro cab units with no power amp through.

I turned of the cab modeling in about 20 of my HD500 patches off and pumped it through my Alto 10 in powered cab. Sounds fantastic!

 

The preamps in the HD500 are very good it is of course the cab modeling that is weak. What a difference for $120. I personally am not interested in an IR loader as I would never record with any of this digital stuff. I use amps for that purpose. Some of you who are flustrated with the HD500 cab modeling may want to try one of these.Everything I have run through it( Boss ME70-Zoom G3-HD500/ individual pedals etc..) sounds really good.

[alphadog808]

I may have an epsi(my spare)loaded with tons of IRs for sale...

[soundog]

Sort of late to the party, but if you still have an Epsi for sale, I'm interested....

 

Thx