High and Low Cut help

[jyanes]

Hey guys looking for settings that you all have found to work great in terms of eq and high/low cuts for particular guitars

 

- Gibson Les Paul studio

- prs custom 24

- g&l bluesboy semi hollow body

- gretsch black falcon hollow body

 

 

I play at church and have found that at home my patches and distortion especially sound good. But then when plugged into our house and volumes turned up, everything is harsh.

 

I am just looking to get baseline ideas based on those of you out their that have had success.

[roscoe5]

Hey guys looking for settings that you all have found to work great in terms of eq and high/low cuts for particular guitars

 

- Gibson Les Paul studio

- prs custom 24

- g&l bluesboy semi hollow body

- gretsch black falcon hollow body

 

 

I play at church and have found that at home my patches and distortion especially sound good. But then when plugged into our house and volumes turned up, everything is harsh.

 

I am just looking to get baseline ideas based on those of you out their that have had success.

 Try a 10kHz high cut for starters, then back it down.  Anything lower than 7kHz starts to sound too dark to me.

 

Unless you are boomy, low cut may not be necessary.  A low cut at 70-80Hz wouldn't hurt anything for guitar though.

[jyanes]

Should I do these adjustments on global eq, on the cab or place an eq block after amp before cab?

[roscoe5]

If you are harsh across all of your clean and dirty sounds, I would go for maybe a 10kHz setting on the Global EQ, then adjust the cabs/IR's on the patches between 7-10kHz as needed.

 

Personally, generally I like to keep my clean sounds higher at a higher High Cut and lower the High Cut to tame my dirty sounds.

 

Rarely do I need to set a Low Cut except on some real synthy bass patches, or super heavy guitar patches using IR's.

 

You might try adjusting the hihg-mids and highs on the global eq itself.

 

If you get some time alone in the church, you can get an RTA analyzer app on your phone and run some pink noise through Helix and through the PA and adjust the Global EQ to tame the peaks.  Of course, you can as pro as you want with reference mics and software too.  Some church sound engineers are VERY savy with this, so you could maybe get some help there too.

 

Check out this thread

http://line6.com/support/topic/21316-adjust-your-global-eq-you-may-be-surprised/

[jshimkoski]

It's always a very good idea to do a low cut around 70 - 90 Hz (guitar dependent).

 

The kick drum and bass guitar live down there... The only thing an electric provides below 70 - 90Hz is trash.

 

In a recording studio, this is just routine for pretty much all mixes.

 

You'll be amazed at how well this cleans up the "mix" when you're playing live.

[DunedinDragon]

The real issue here is what are you using at home to dial in your presets?  Apparently it's not sufficient for simulating the frequency response range of the FOH system.  You might want to think about getting a speaker for home use that will give you a better picture of what to expect live.

 

To start, I'd make sure your soundboard channel EQ is set flat.

 

Secondly, I'd suggest adjusting EQ at the preset level based on the guitar being used.  Your Gretsch is likely to be more boomy at the low end than most of the other guitars (at least it is on my Silver Falcon).  Each one of the guitars will most likely have some nuances on the lows and highs you might want to evaluate.  So that's a good reason to have a good FRFR speaker at home to determine high and low cuts.

 

I'd agree with what others have said that you can START on the low end at cutting around 70-90 Hz, but that's not likely to be enough in some cases.  I've gone as high as 140 Hz on my Gretsch, especially if I'm finger picking to tighten up that low end so it doesn't get covered up by the bass and kick drum.  Similarly my Les Paul tends to need more adjustment on the low end than most for high gain presets.  But that really all depends on the type of pickups you have.

 

At the high end a lot is dependent on your guitar as well as effects and style of song.  Generally speaking, not much of interest happens on an electric guitar above 5000 Hz, but sometimes certain styles of reverb may sound better with more top end.  I have gone as low as 3500 Hz for some styles of music (like funk and R& B ) in order to tame the highs, but that's fairly rare, and is very dependent on the amp and the cabinet being used.

 

Again because of all these factors I shy away from Global EQ adjustments and tend to use just the cabinet high and low cuts on a preset by preset/guitar by guitar basis.  But that will only work if you have a decent simulation of the response you'll get from the FOH speakers when you're setting up your presets.

 

We use QSC KLA-12's on our FOH system and I find the Yamaha DXR12 to be a very accurate representation of what they will sound like.

[Garhel]

Again because of all these factors I shy away from Global EQ adjustments and tend to use just the cabinet high and low cuts on a preset by preset/guitar by guitar basis.  But that will only work if you have a decent simulation of the response you'll get from the FOH speakers when you're setting up your presets.

 

Yes, similar approach here. We carry around our own PA system for almost all of our gigs, which is all based on Alto desk and powered speakers, and I use an Alto TS212a at home to sort out my patches. It seems to translate very well to a nice FOH sound, and a consistent stage sound.

[conradkriel]

Hi guys

 

I'm new to modelling so his low and high cut stuff is confusing as hell to me. Am I correct in assuming the following

 

Using an FRFR speaker (I use an alto ts210 to set my patches at gig volume) means that :

It gives me ALL frequencies and as a result I need to cut the lower and higher frequencies which are

 

1) not - of use on a "typical" electric guitar (let's use a les paul with classic 57 and 57+pickups as an example )

 

2) don't sound good

 

3) which are generally not present on a typical guitar speaker (let's use a celestion V30 as an example)

 

I have been using my ears to do this as I found a lot of sounds to be too "boomy and flubby" so After experimenting with the cabs and moving mikes further back initially - I then recorded a phrase on the looper and ran it whilst I simply turned up the low cut until those boomy or flubby sounds disappeared - I tried NOT to look at the numbers but seemed to find (that as recommended on here ) that up to 90hz tends to do the trick BUT if you overdo the low you lose all your bass?

 

I did the same with the high cut - although this seems to work in reverse ie you roll the numbers backwards ?

 

QUESTIONS

 

1) am I on the righty track in my thinking / methodology ?

2 ) "typical" low cuts (cut boomyness and flubbyness) are UP to 90hz

3) "typical high cuts (to cut harshness and make things less "sterile" are UP to 16hz ?

4) should I cut the bass and treble on my amp models first and then introduce these high cuts

5) do I introduce them via the speaker cab or is it better to introduce one eq block and cut from there ?

6) where is this best placed in the signal chain?

7) do I then add back bass and treble to the amp or do this via same eq block (which would suggest an eq block before and after the amp or one before the amp and one I. The cab) ?

8) why do the reverbs and some other effects also have these cuts on them ? Do I need to match these to my eq / And cab low and high cuts ?

8) unrelated question - wh do IR's arrive set at -18db? I turned mine up to 0db and they sound fantastic !

 

I'm still setting up my helix for gigging so any help appreciated

 

I'm going to FOH and using the alto as my monitor and to set up patches at gig levels - at home

[DunedinDragon]

First, I would say that you're definitely on the right track using your ears rather than just using numbers to adjust hi/lo cuts.  So much of this is dependent on so many factors that you really can't give a hard and fast set of rules, but let me outline at least how I approach this.

 

A couple of corrections about your assumptions.  A FRFR speaker generally has all the same frequency range as a normal guitar speaker.  It's just that a guitar speaker doesn't produce all of those frequencies at the same response level as does a FRFR speaker.  that's what the "flat response" part of FRFR refers to.  A Les Paul may have a different effect on highs and lows than a strat or tele, but it still may need adjustment depending on the amp, cab, mic, and mic placement.  You'll be better served to think of the adjustments you're making NOT as trying to emulate the sound of a guitar amp, but rather crafting the tone for a studio recording.  For example, if you were to target an Eric Clapton tone, think about the sound he gets on his recording rather than the live sound from an amp.

 

1.  Any given patch I develop is going to be oriented toward a specific guitar.  The guitars I use are a Les Paul Standard, a Strat, a Tele, and a Gretsch hollow body.  The Strat and Tele tend to need more adjustment on highs than do the Les Paul and Gretsch.  But that's all dependent on the amp and IRs.

 

2. Hi/lo cuts will be dependent upon the guitar being used, the IR's being used and the style/sound I'm shooting for in the particular patch.

 

3.  I start by setting up the amp and IR(s) and adjust the EQ on the amp for main tone I want.  It's not unusual that simply choosing the right IR will alleviate the harshness or boominess.  Sometimes I can alleviate the high end harshness by simply combining a second IR in parallel and adjust the amount of signal between the two IRs.  Once I get the sound close to what I want I then adjust the hi and lo cuts on the IR(s) if necessary to address any harshness or boominess.

 

4.  I try to not use the amp tone controls to address any harshness/boominess.  Those are simply to get my tone where I need it.  Hi/lo cuts are the final tweak, although there is often some give and take in this area to get what I want.  A note of caution here, it's very easy to fall into the trap of having too much bass in your patch.  It may sound fine by itself, but it gets very muddled in the context of the band once you add in the bass guitar and drums.

 

5.  IR's from different vendors can have very different effects on harshness and boominess depending on how much coloration they add to the tone.  Ownhammer tends to add the most coloration, followed by Redwirez, and the Celestions add the least.  But I prefer to try parallel cabinets first to address harshness/boominess before I add hi/lo cuts to the cabinets.  In some cases the hi/lo cuts may only be necessary on one of the cabinets in a parallel setup.  A couple of other observations.  Redwirez tend to be better at controlling the harsh highs but you have to be careful about combining IRs from different manufacturers as you can sometimes get phasing issues between the IR's that can really mess up the articulation of the lows.

 

6.  On hi cuts I generally start at 3.8khz then back it off until the harshness begins to come back.  How high that goes is really dependent upon how everything else in the patch is setup and can often go as high as is necessary, but it's all based on what I hear.  On low cuts I have my high pass filter on my monitor set to 120hz to match the crossover between the sub and the mains on the PA system.  Therefore low cuts (if needed) will be something above that.  So I start at 120hz and work my way up.  By and large low cuts are not as problematic as hi cuts with the right IRs.

 

7. I only use EQ blocks, if necessary, to tame certain specific frequencies in the normal tonal range of the patch and I generally place them toward the end of my signal chain.  I don't use them to address hi/lo cuts.  I leave that to the hi/lo cuts on the cabs.

 

8. As far as reverbs I adjust those cuts as necessary by ear AFTER the basic tone tone of the patch is correct.  These are typically the last effect I add.

 

9. Don't be deceived into thinking that turning up the -18db sounds better.  Your ears will automatically prefer louder sounds.  That's why when you compare speakers in a store you'll automatically prefer the louder speaker, even though it may not always the best speaker in terms of tone.  I only use the loudness adjustment on the IR to level the overall volume between my patches so that I don't affect the tone.

 

At any rate, this is my general process which I've come to after much tinkering with the Helix over the last year and a half.  It seems to work pretty consistently for me and I think it pretty minimalistic as far as processing of the tone.  In quite a number of cases I've had to make no adjustments to hi and low cuts once I setup my IRs correctly.  Hope that helps.

[jbuhajla]

I play at church and have found that at home my patches and distortion especially sound good. But then when plugged into our house and volumes turned up, everything is harsh.

 

I am just looking to get baseline ideas based on those of you out their that have had success.

I also play at church every week. I was creating my patches using  Audio Technica E-70 in ear monitors connected to Helix, but my presets never did come out quite right at church through our QSC PA. They all seemed a little boomy in the low end and harsh in the high end. So, I bought myself a couple of JBL EON610s for at home. I went back to review some of my presets, and readjusted. Some adjustments were fairly significant. 

 

I play a Tele with Seymour Duncan vintage stacks and American Deluxe Strat (with S1 series switch for some "humbuckery" tones). I landed up adjusting low cut on almost all my cab/IRs to about 90hz, and high cut about 10khz. I also adjusted tone settings on most of the amp models. I don't use an EQ in the path very often unless I want to do some final tone shaping of my core tone. I usually just get what I need from the parameters on the amp models.  

[PeterHamm]

Some clean (and even some dirty) sounds like that wide open sound. Remember, the IR or cab is already attenuating a bunch of those high frequencies. But some people like a pretty drastic hi cut down to 4 or 5K. I don't, generally, on most amps, but I do on some.

 

Also, OP, it's possible that you have a problem that is NOT in your tone if it sounds good in IEMS or FRFR or at home but not at church.

 

Check to make sure phantom isn't on on the board if you're hooking up XLR, check to make sure that they aren't jamming the input trim a bunch and keeping the fader really low. And check to make sure there isn't some god-awful EQ going on.

 

I would NEVER use global EQ to "fix my patches". I use it to "fix the room", but I don't even do that if I have a decent sound guy. He does that.

[Verne-Bunsen]

I think DD has done an excellent job of answering your questions point-for-point, I can't add much there. I will say that the ability to assign your high and low cuts to Snapshots is very powerful and shouldn't be overlooked. I find that with squeaky clean tones I generally like a good low cut to mitigate boomyness, but minimal high cut or none at all to maintain all the sparkle. On the flipside, for dirty tones I often have low cuts off but high cuts in place to eliminate fizz. With Snapshots you can give one tone whatever it needs without having to sacrifice anything on another.

[conradkriel]

Thank you guys for these answers

 

I can't thank you ALL of you enough , for taking time out of your busy lives to answer these questions.

 

dunedindragon - thanks for taking the time to list those points - it's much appreciated - you've contributed a lot to so many people's questions so I thank you again for your patience and time.

 

your approach to setting a tone based on a recording rather than an amp tone really struck a chord with me abdcwill help me change the way I approach my tone set up.

 

This evening I set up a rock patch and was still hearing a frequency that just didn't sound right - it was bothering me - a boomy buzz type almost muted sound - on the a string

 

Against all suggested knowledge I turned the low cut up to 120 and suddenly the speaker in front of me spewed forth a rock crunch tone that literally stopped me in my tracks - it sounded - perfect ! It sounded so good I literally stoppped plating.

 

At that exact point my wife called me up to say goodnight to my son!!!! My signal to put away the guitar

 

I'm off snowboarding for a week in Italy but with LL catch up with you my helix brethren on my return to no doubt ask lots more noob questions

 

Have a good weekend guys

[conradkriel]

Thank you guys for these answers

 

I can't thank you ALL of you enough , for taking time out of your busy lives to answer these questions.

 

dunedindragon - thanks for taking the time to list those points - it's much appreciated - you've contributed a lot to so many people's questions so I thank you again for your patience and time.

 

your approach to setting a tone based on a recording rather than an amp tone really struck a chord with me abdcwill help me change the way I approach my tone set up.

 

This evening I set up a rock patch and was still hearing a frequency that just didn't sound right - it was bothering me - a boomy buzz type almost muted sound - on the a string

 

Against all suggested knowledge I turned the low cut up to 120 and suddenly the speaker in front of me spewed forth a rock crunch tone that literally stopped me in my tracks - it sounded - perfect ! It sounded so good I literally stoppped plating.

 

At that exact point my wife called me up to say goodnight to my son!!!! My signal to put away the guitar

 

I'm off snowboarding for a week in Italy but with LL catch up with you my helix brethren on my return to no doubt ask lots more noob questions

 

Have a good weekend guys