440 hum. What am I hearing?

[StruckingFuggle]

I downloaded some IRs from 3 Sigma, and I'm still trying very hard to like Helix, but some things are driving me bonkers.  

 

For example, there is this honky hum when I play a muted A note (open string or 5th fret).  I've tried using a parametric EQ low sweep at -12db, a global EQ sweep, low cutting the IRs at 200hz, and turning the bass down on the Archetype lead model.  

 

If I roll the bass off enough to get rid of this honking, then the whole low end is gone.  If I don't, every time I play an A chord the room vibrates.  It's only one specific frequency.  

 

 

Am I hearing resonance in the room?  Or is this an Lt2 issue?  I've tried both PA reference mode connected by link cable, and floor monitor mode connected with XLR to channel 1.   It gets a little better in floor monitor mode, but again the whole bottom drops out.

 

Don't know if you can hear it on the video, but the hum with that one note is super loud in the room.  I can't seem to EQ it out without killing the low end (parametric, graphic, or global).  

 

Any suggestions?  I'm just starting to feel like Helix is just never going to work for me live.  It sounds great direct to my DAW, but I just can't figure out how to get this Lt2 to sound good at stage volume.  I seem to get either super bright, with no low end, or honk.  No middle ground.

 

 

[PeterHamm]

Tell us more about your signal chain. I don't have this problem with the built-in cabs, and have not had it when I used IR cabs either.

 

Gutar? other FX in the chain? settings on the monitor?

[silverhead]

Test with headphones to determine whether it might be an L2m issue.

[jbuhajla]

Try it also in a different room, with the speaker sitting upright, and with you standing in a different location in the room. I can't hear it really in the video, which leads me to believe that it may be the room. 

[StruckingFuggle]

Tell us more about your signal chain. I don't have this problem with the built-in cabs, and have not had it when I used IR cabs either.

 

Gutar? other FX in the chain? settings on the monitor?

I did some more experimenting last night, and I think it's a combination of guitar, l2t, and room.

 

If I put the L2t in floor monitor mode it's not nearly as bad. If I change guitars so something with a single coil it's also better.

 

The L2t seems to just be really boomy in ref mode in that room. Even just listening to the video I made, if I turn it up I hear it excite the room.

 

With the L2t in floor mode I can put some bass back into it without getting too boomy.

 

So many variables and places to tweak. Amp, cab, impulse, eq block, global, and L2 mode.

 

I'll try building some patches in floor mode, but I'm concerned that's kind of like building patches with headphones. Is what I send FOH going to be completely different?

[jbuhajla]

I'll try building some patches in floor mode, but I'm concerned that's kind of like building patches with headphones. Is what I send FOH going to be completely different?

What I did way to buy the same relative sized PA speakers as the FOH I play in weekly. Our FOH is QSC K10s and K8s, with floor subs. So I purchased two JBL EON 610s for at home. I put the EONs in monitor mode and have them on the floor as wedges. I built 4 presets like that at home, and they translated over pretty darned well into FOH. The fact that our FOH has subs didn't really matter because I don't have anything bleeding over to that frequency range anyway. Keep in mind, that there will still be a difference though because of differences in monitors, the room, etc...

 

Nothing is EVER going to be perfect. You need to find what will be "pretty darned good" for you, and live with it. Don't chase perfection and miss out on the fun of playing guitar. 

[StruckingFuggle]

Test with headphones to determine whether it might be an L2m issue.

I don't hear it in the headphones directly from the Helix, or through headphones when I'm plugged into my DAW.   I do hear it if I use my studio monitors or the L2t in PA Reference mode, which means it has to be the room, right?    

 

My studio is a bedroom, which isn't very big, but does have 10 foot ceilings.  Over the weekend I was noticing this awful warbling sound on higher pitched notes, like a chorus set super fast.  I started bypassing everything, got down to only just an amp block and could still clearly hear it.  I was convinced it was some digital modeling thing that just sounded different.  I asked my wife to listen to it, to see if she could hear it, and she definitely could.  But while she was in there she says "aren't you cold, do you want me to turn off the ceiling fan?"  And hey, the warbling slowed down and stopped.

 

Omg.  Ceiling fan Doppler effect.  

[DunedinDragon]

I did some more experimenting last night, and I think it's a combination of guitar, l2t, and room.

 

If I put the L2t in floor monitor mode it's not nearly as bad. If I change guitars so something with a single coil it's also better.

 

The L2t seems to just be really boomy in ref mode in that room. Even just listening to the video I made, if I turn it up I hear it excite the room.

 

With the L2t in floor mode I can put some bass back into it without getting too boomy.

 

So many variables and places to tweak. Amp, cab, impulse, eq block, global, and L2 mode.

 

I'll try building some patches in floor mode, but I'm concerned that's kind of like building patches with headphones. Is what I send FOH going to be completely different?

 

Putting it into monitor mode will reduce or eliminate the bass coupling, but it may not completely take out some of the very low end (below 125hz) which can also cause some boominess.  I know on my speaker (Yamaha DXR12) I place it in floor monitor mode to reduce the bass coupling and I also switch on the high pass filter at 125 hz.  This should accurately reflect the sound from FOH as 125 hz is typically the crossover point from the sub to the mains.  Just to be sure, in many cases if I'm using a very bass oriented patch I'll often set a 130hz low cut on my cabinets.  None of that really affects my FOH because my channel already has 125hz filter on it, plus the crossover from the subs to the mains.

[gunpointmetal]

Stack some couch cushions in the corners of the room, sounds like you just a have a very live room.

[jbuhajla]

 

 

Omg.  Ceiling fan Doppler effect.  

That is awesome. The Hunter ceiling fan/leslie simulator. Now you just need to interface an expression pedal to it to control speed. 

[erniedenov]

I'll try building some patches in floor mode, but I'm concerned that's kind of like building patches with headphones. Is what I send FOH going to be completely different?

 

 

Putting it into monitor mode will reduce or eliminate the bass coupling, but it may not completely take out some of the very low end (below 125hz) which can also cause some boominess.  I know on my speaker (Yamaha DXR12) I place it in floor monitor mode to reduce the bass coupling and I also switch on the high pass filter at 125 hz.  This should accurately reflect the sound from FOH as 125 hz is typically the crossover point from the sub to the mains.  Just to be sure, in many cases if I'm using a very bass oriented patch I'll often set a 130hz low cut on my cabinets.  None of that really affects my FOH because my channel already has 125hz filter on it, plus the crossover from the subs to the mains.

 

I don't have a "monitor mode" in my Alto FRFR, but I assume it's purpose is to simulate what the speaker would sound like mounted on a pole. I had to do tons of low cut for my Alto (on the floor) before someone here advised me about how floor coupling affects it. I bought myself a pole and it's way better sounding now that I re-tweaked my Helix for the Alto being mounted on the pole. I'm not quite used to mounting a speaker on a pole and I feel a little weird about it, like I should hire an exotic dancer to make extra use of it. :) But sound is top priority.

 

Listening to your video, I had the impression that it might be the guitar. Do you have a whammy bar bridge? I've had a problem in the past with a resonating spring. I stuffed some foam inside the spring and it helped a lot. 

[DunedinDragon]

I don't have a "monitor mode" in my Alto FRFR, but I assume it's purpose is to simulate what the speaker would sound like mounted on a pole. I had to do tons of low cut for my Alto (on the floor) before someone here advised me about how floor coupling affects it. I bought myself a pole and it's way better sounding now that I re-tweaked my Helix for the Alto being mounted on the pole. I'm not quite used to mounting a speaker on a pole and I feel a little weird about it, like I should hire an exotic dancer to make extra use of it. :) But sound is top priority.

 

Listening to your video, I had the impression that it might be the guitar. Do you have a whammy bar bridge? I've had a problem in the past with a resonating spring. I stuffed some foam inside the spring and it helped a lot. 

 Typically the "monitor" mode is a DSP function built into the speaker that flattens out the natural bump in the frequency profile of the speaker in the very lowest part of the frequency range typically between about 50 to 110hz.  That bump is typically fine for bass in a full range FOH speaker, but not so good if it's on the floor as the bass gets exaggerated.  On the Alto 210's it's marked as the "contour" button I believe.

[bobthedog]

I'm not an expert but it sounds like something resonating in the room rather than room resonance.

 

I have heard a similar problem in a room with a desk with hollow metal desk legs, this was fixed fixed by filling them up with concrete!

 

Loop some guitar that causes the issue and move around the room trying to listen for where it might be coming from.

[StruckingFuggle]

It's got to be the room. I think I'm just kind of in overload with way too many variables. I've read that it's best to keep the L2t in pa mode, and up the patch. When no reasonable amount of eq would make it better then I should have known.

 

Floor coupling, room resonance, and just inexperience chasing Helix/frfr issues.

 

As a side note, I'm enjoying the 3 Sigma IRs. I'm blending the Fender 2x12 and the mesa 4x12. Either one by themselves is pretty icky. But together I get the fat fender and thumpy mesa. Sounding pretty good with the archon lead.

 

I need to print out a Hitchhiker's Guide poster. "Don't Panic". Thanks for all the responses.

[erniedenov]

 Typically the "monitor" mode is a DSP function built into the speaker that flattens out the natural bump in the frequency profile of the speaker in the very lowest part of the frequency range typically between about 50 to 110hz.  That bump is typically fine for bass in a full range FOH speaker, but not so good if it's on the floor as the bass gets exaggerated.  On the Alto 210's it's marked as the "contour" button I believe.

 

The contour button on the Alto actually increases the bass and treble; it's like a "loudness" button on a stereo system. I keep it off and I'd guess most users do the same unless they're playing at bedroom volume.