Helix-Mac Usb Direct Record

[chstd]

Hi everyone, first of all i have searched for this but really i couldn't find any real solution..

 

I have owned axefx2xl for 2 years and just bought my helix lt. First thing i notice is the output volume is a little low. I have set the big volume knob to %50 to match the axe's output level (even the axe output knob is set to %20). The firmware is updated bytheway. 

 

But the main problem is when i record via usb on Logic my signal volume seems to be too low. Shows -14db..

 

I have used factory presets to record little tracks to try and i have to raise the output level +7 or 8db(sometimes even more) every time to achieve a normal signal level.

 

Is there a way to adjust usb recording level (or globally all levels) on Helix or on Mac? Or should we raise the output block level for every presets?

 

-As an addition, when i play some music from computer via helix the music volume is fine but the guitar output is the main problem here. I hardly hear my guitar when i jam along a song.. Obviously the guitar volume should be raised on both the 1/4'' outs and the usb outs.

 

 

** I connected helix to JBL LSR305's via 1/4'' cables (the same setup which i used with axe for 2 years) and set the output as 'line'..

**My guitar is schecter with emgs and the battery is fresh..

 

 

 

***The helix and the axe recording level difference can be seen in the picture below.

[PeterHamm]

-14db isn't too low imho. You don't have to jam the levels when you're recording 24 bit.

[Jam_Sandwich]

That's a perfect level to record with. Won't you run out of headroom pretty quickly if you go any higher?

 

But I think you can change the volume in the output on the editor.

[Verne-Bunsen]

There are a number of ways to increase the volume of your presets; for what you're after I think the easiest would be an adjustment to the level parameter in the output block.

[Jam_Sandwich]

I just said that... 😶

[jbuhajla]

Every model  block you put into your signal chain in between the guitar IN and the outputs of the Helix effect the overall gain/volume. Just comparing volume knob positions between two pieces of different equipment is not a genuine comparison of overall gain structure. 

[chstd]

Thanks for the answers.. I usually record at around -6db on guitar tracks and i have never experienced this low volumes at first try with any processor, that's why i wrote here the 2nd day i received the helix..

I use it by adjusting the output volumes in the presets for now..

 

@jbuhajla yesterday i noticed that some blocks increase volume in the signal chain as you said, this is interesting, maybe normal but i didn't see it in other processors until now.

 

If everyone say it's normal then i accept as it is but in the picture as you see in my first post, the volume difference in the recordings(both via usb) with another device is huge i think..

 

Besides the volume confusion, helix sounds better then i expect B)

[Jam_Sandwich]

You should keep your guitar/bass/vocals etc levels between -18 and -12db when tracking. That way you have more headroom and you can mix and master louder without clipping. If you kept it lower when tracking and turned your monitors up instead you'd have much better and louder sounding mixes!

 

In case you haven't, have a look at gain staging. That's why adding things causes volume increases; they all have their own output and add gain.

 

I can slam the volume of the Helix in Logic if I want to using the output section on the Editor. If you can't do that then something isn't right, but it's perfectly acceptable to use that to set your guitar level.

[FlyingsCool]

You should keep your guitar/bass/vocals etc levels between -18 and -12db when tracking. That way you have more headroom and you can mix and master louder without clipping. If you kept it lower when tracking and turned your monitors up instead you'd have much better and louder sounding mixes!

 

In case you haven't, have a look at gain staging. That's why adding things causes volume increases; they all have their own output and add gain.

 

I can slam the volume of the Helix in Logic if I want to using the output section on the Editor. If you can't do that then something isn't right, but it's perfectly acceptable to use that to set your guitar level.

 

And conversely some effects tend to sound as if they reduce volume, like tremelo and sometimes phase shift or flange or chorus

[Jam_Sandwich]

And conversely some effects tend to sound as if they reduce volume, like tremelo and sometimes phase shift or flange or chorus

Yep, which is why sound alone isn't enough.

 

I'm new to the Helix but there doesn't seem to be an obvious way to monitor your input, unless I'm missing something?

 

I have a Kemper and on the front panel have an indicator for your input signal and your output signal, and various ways to lower the input levels so you know that the signal isn't too hot going in and isn't too hot going out, and then you control the input level in the DAW.

 

Can you monitor this with the Helix or are you basically using the output level only?

[FlyingsCool]

Yep, which is why sound alone isn't enough.

 

I'm new to the Helix but there doesn't seem to be an obvious way to monitor your input, unless I'm missing something?

 

I have a Kemper and on the front panel have an indicator for your input signal and your output signal, and various ways to lower the input levels so you know that the signal isn't too hot going in and isn't too hot going out, and then you control the input level in the DAW.

 

Can you monitor this with the Helix or are you basically using the output level only?

 

Yes, that's correct.  There are a few Ideascale requests to add level monitoring / clipping indicator features to the blocks and In/Outs.  I'm pretty sure they are in the top ten requests for the Helix if you want to add your vote.

[jbuhajla]

Here is what I do (my personal preference) for my playing application. I don't record very much. 

 

I build my preset with my favorite amp/cab and effects. I turn off all the effects, just leaving the amp and cab on. I set preamp gain at the edge of breakup. I then tweak the amp model's "master" to get around the -12dB range on my DAW through USB. Then from there, I mostly use ears. I will turn on one of the overdrives and set it to where it is approximately the same, or a little louder than just the amp. I turn that overdrive off, and turn on the next one and adjust. I go through that process with every effect in the signal chain. 

 

If you just drop in the factory default settings on some effects, they have a dramatic volume level change in your signal. The LA Studio Compressor and The TS808 are a couple that come to mind. 

[FlyingsCool]

Here is what I do (my personal preference) for my playing application. I don't record very much. 

 

I build my preset with my favorite amp/cab and effects. I turn off all the effects, just leaving the amp and cab on. I set preamp gain at the edge of breakup. I then tweak the amp model's "master" to get around the -12dB range on my DAW through USB. Then from there, I mostly use ears. I will turn on one of the overdrives and set it to where it is approximately the same, or a little louder than just the amp. I turn that overdrive off, and turn on the next one and adjust. I go through that process with every effect in the signal chain. 

 

If you just drop in the factory default settings on some effects, they have a dramatic volume level change in your signal. The LA Studio Compressor and The TS808 are a couple that come to mind. 

 

You're better off using the amp models' "Volume" control instead of the Master.  The Master is meant to act like an amp Master volume control, and therefore its setting affects the tone of the amp, just like pushing the power amp side of an amplifier can do.  Line 6 always adds a Master volume to amps, even if the real ones don't have one, to add the flexibility a Master volume adds to an amp, and because it doesn't cost them anything.  For those amps that don't have a Master volume control IRL, it is designed to be set at 10 for the amp to act like the real one does. 

 

The Volume control is meant to control the volume/gain of the signal coming out of the block, and does not color the tone.

[aleclee]

Funny.  I had the exact opposite experience going from AxeFx to HX.  AxeFx levels were weak with HX levels right where I want them.  I suspect it all boils down to the levels in the presets.

[jbuhajla]

You're better off using the amp models' "Volume" control instead of the Master.  The Master is meant to act like an amp Master volume control, and therefore its setting affects the tone of the amp, just like pushing the power amp side of an amplifier can do.  Line 6 always adds a Master volume to amps, even if the real ones don't have one, to add the flexibility a Master volume adds to an amp, and because it doesn't cost them anything.  For those amps that don't have a Master volume control IRL, it is designed to be set at 10 for the amp to act like the real one does. 

 

The Volume control is meant to control the volume/gain of the signal coming out of the block, and does not color the tone.

Yeah, that is what I mean't, but I couldn't remember the terminology. I looked last night and I leave the master on 10, and adjust the "channel volume" that is usually on the first page of the amp parameters on knob 6. 

 

Thanks for mentioning it though, because those two are very different things. 

[line6picker]

I found this page because I was having the same problem with my Helix LT, but my patches were far to hot. Maybe there was an update that changed something (I am on 2.71 ?) but when I look at my amp's control the last control to the far right allows me to change the output level measured in dBs. My patches were pinning my levels in Logic Pro so I dialed the dBs down from 0dB (where they were) to -8dB and now they are perfect. The only hassle is that I now have to do this across a couple hundred patches. Am I on the right track here or is this the wrong way to adjust my levels through the USB 3&4 outs to my DAW?

[jbuhajla]

14 hours ago, line6picker said:

I found this page because I was having the same problem with my Helix LT, but my patches were far to hot. Maybe there was an update that changed something (I am on 2.71 ?) but when I look at my amp's control the last control to the far right allows me to change the output level measured in dBs. My patches were pinning my levels in Logic Pro so I dialed the dBs down from 0dB (where they were) to -8dB and now they are perfect. The only hassle is that I now have to do this across a couple hundred patches. Am I on the right track here or is this the wrong way to adjust my levels through the USB 3&4 outs to my DAW?

If you are using the same USB 3/4 signals from Helix to DAW on all your patches, why not turn the gain down on the DAW side for those two inputs? As long as you are not getting any clipping. 

 

Also, there are many threads about "volume normalizing" of patches. A lot of players have different ways of setting the output level of their presets. Same thing is done when playing through a "normal" guitar effects rig and amp. That is done per preset. 

[line6picker]

Thank you for clarifying some of this. You are right that addressing most of this in the DAW is the way to go but I still find that the vast majority of my patches need level adjustment and I wanted to make sure that the output level adjustment that I am using is the right choice (the amps dB adjustment on the far right of the amp as I mentioned above). I would hate to adjust all of those and then find that I did it incorrectly. I am a little new to all of this so I appreciate your help.

[zolko60]

1 hour ago, jbuhajla said:

why not turn the gain down on the DAW side for those two inputs

If you have clipping at output turning down any "gain " on input is pointless no matter if analog or digital.

It was hard to me to understand Helix gain staging behaviour. Now I know that Helix instrument level is about 11dBu full scale, 8dB lower than line level. It gives me -10dBFS input headroom. What I mean is the headroom of the loudest transients with classic 8kohm humbucker pickup. This level was used for all models gain behavior to get about -10dBFS headroom at output. Of course you can make it clip, but if you make first your preset with DAW metering or even comparing with factory presets you are safe.
The volume knob is only digital attenuator. As far as I remember it is even advice in manual to make patches at the clockwise position to avoid making amps loud and protect clipping with the volume knob. Helix is probably 32bit floating internally so there is some space above 0dBFS, but the converter is still 24bit brickwall.
There is however no way the assign the volume knob for USB outputs.

[line6picker]

Thank you for this. Perhaps you can tell me: If all of your Helix LT patches were too hot (as mine presently are) what control within Helix would you use to lower the output that would NOT effect the quality or tone of those patches? This is what I am trying to determine. Thanks again for your help.

[zolko60]

Hmm... quality and volume. There are Helix users who claim setting volume knob past 1 o'clock (about -10dB) gives them harsh sound and there are users who swear that volume knob is a tone sucker ;) What I claim is 10-20dB of digital headroom is normal thing these days. You trade some S/N ratio for some peace of not monitoring levels all the time.

[line6picker]

Are you referring to the big round "VOLUME" knob right there on the face of the Helix unit? I'm not sure if that pertains to what I'm trying to do (but maybe). I am trying to adjust the patches internally in a way that will not change their existing character (or tone). I want to lower their output so that they are not so hot coming into my DAW. This is my goal. I am trying to figure out which control is the best one to use internally to accomplish this.

[zolko60]

I understand. The Volume Knob is not related to your problem. You can not set it to attenuate USB outputs level. You have plenty of other volume controlls in DSP and output blocks.