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The_Elf

Tap light and delay time drifting out of time

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I'm using some super-long feedback delays at slow tempo to create a real-time performance. I'm finding that the flashing light on the tap button is not reflecting the delay time accurately. After a minute or two it is out by quite a margin - a whole beat typically. I was hoping to rely on the tap light to help me add content in time, but I can't trust it.

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Are you tapping the tempo, or setting it manually?

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Thanks for the responses.

 

The same happens with ALL the delay models (though some obviously can't go long enough for my purposes).

 

I've tapped the tempo and I've set a tempo (60BPM for the purposes of this example), but it makes no difference. The tempo light and the repeating audio are significantly out of sync within 30 seconds and drift further and further apart.

 

If there's something I'm not doing I'd love to know what it is. Failing that it looks like there's a mathematical bug in the Helix that I'd like fixed!

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Are you choosing a note value rather than a millisecond time delay value? If so, what note value?

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I'm choosing note value 1/1 - whole bar.

 

I've also tried setting to 60BPM and delay time to 4 seconds (instead of using a note division), which should give a repeat on precisely every fourth flash of the light, but within 30 seconds the tap light and delay repeats are significantly out of step and get progressively further apart as the feedback decays. The delay repeats are faster than the light.

 

So it makes no difference if I choose tap tempo, set tempo manually, use delay time or note division - the tap light and delay time are not in sync.

 

Setting tempo to 60.2 and delay time to 4 seconds seems to keep the two in sync for very much longer. This suggests that somewhere in the Helix the delay time to tempo calculation is inaccurate.

 

I could at least please do with someone else confirming that their Helix behaves in the same way.

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I have Helix Floor and we play live with a click track. Some of my guitar parts are very delay heavy that require staying in the tempo of the song. It stays in tempo for me, but I don't use very large feedback % so I don't get more than 2 or 3 repeats. 

 

I can give it a try though and see what it does. 

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I'm using repeats that last several minutes - 99% feedback. 2 or 3 repeats wouldn't show up this problem.

 

I'd definitely appreciate confirmation of what I'm seeing. I've raised a ticket and I'm opening the subject up in other forums to see if anyone else has noticed it. Mine is a very specialist use of delay, I accept, but I would have expected it to be right.

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Confirmed here on my floor unit. After 100 repeats of the Simple Delay at 1000ms with tap tempo set to 60bpm the tap tempo light flashing is about half a beat/second behind.

 

If I set the tempo to 140bpm, then set a stopwatch for 2 minutes and watch the flashing light, I see about 275/276 flashes when I would expect to see 280.

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Thanks, mate. Looks like this is something that the Line 6 boffins need to look at. I'm also finding that switching snapshots throws the tap light out of kilter too. Hmmm...

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You may want to open a support ticket to make them aware of the issue if they are not already. 

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12 hours ago, jbuhajla said:

You may want to open a support ticket to make them aware of the issue if they are not already. 

Have done. No response yet...

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I've had a response to my ticket. Unfortunately the respondent doesn't understand what I'm telling him, and I very much doubt that has he tried to recreate the problem. If anyone else can please confirm my findings I would appreciate it, as it looks like I will need to convince them that this is a real problem and that a fix is required.

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I tested it 3 times the other day at different tempos and the light was slow every time. I just tried it again today and this time the light was exactly on time. So something quite weird is occurring.

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Just got this response to my ticket:

"I was able to reproduce the issue and have already contacted our QA. They informed me that the delay timing is spot on, but that the TAP LED may be slightly off because it runs on a separate clock. They are looking into it. Best regards Line 6 Support Europe"

 

At least now they accept the problem, maybe they can provide a fix. Here's hoping...

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The_Elf, I appreciate you keeping this thread updated. I hardly use the tap tempo, or MS tempo much. (I usually stay in BPM dividends, SYNC) 

 

That said a good engineer knows as much as possible about the equipment that they use.  I like it when people that have issues on this forum keep the threads they started updated. I try to do this myself back when I got Helix, and had issues.  I tried to update the threads with not only things I found wrong, but with things that I found worked, and things I was doing wrong. So anyone else that has the issues, and searches the internet may find there are some actual possible solutions, instead of just someone slamming a product. But I may have missed one, or two. lol

 

Since then I have learned most of the quirks of my system. I try to encourage others to do the same as there is no perfect system out of the box, and many that see there system as perfect (or close to) are largely just overlooking the quirks that they have learned to work with.

 

Hope you get an update soon.

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Thanks, mate. I never expect perfection, and I never have a go at anyone for making an honest mistake (individual or companies) - it is how we react when a mistake is discovered that is the measure. In this case Line 6 has acknowledged my ticket, recreated my findings, given me an explanation and passed the message on - hopefully to someone who can look at the software. That's pretty good in my book.

 

For my part I have thanked them for their response, and I will certainly keep this thread updated with progress in the hope that it can help someone else.

 

BTW my current way around this problem is to set tempo to 60.3 and delay time to 3.994 seconds. That combo stays close enough in time to do the current improv job I'm undertaking. It means I can't use tap to change tempo mid-gig, but I can work with that.

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13 hours ago, The_Elf said:

Thanks, mate. I never expect perfection, and I never have a go at anyone for making an honest mistake (individual or companies) - it is how we react when a mistake is discovered that is the measure. In this case Line 6 has acknowledged my ticket, recreated my findings, given me an explanation and passed the message on - hopefully to someone who can look at the software. That's pretty good in my book.

 

For my part I have thanked them for their response, and I will certainly keep this thread updated with progress in the hope that it can help someone else.

 

BTW my current way around this problem is to set tempo to 60.3 and delay time to 3.994 seconds. That combo stays close enough in time to do the current improv job I'm undertaking. It means I can't use tap to change tempo mid-gig, but I can work with that.

 

Thanks for staying on this. I use tap tempo all the time. As long as this is just a problem with the tempo LED not reflecting the tempo accurately I feel less of a sense of urgency then if the tempo was actually drifting but I hope they can get them synched up properly at some point.

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15 minutes ago, miltosxp said:

Same problem here... i thought the update to 2.60 might help but not.

For those who do not understand the problem check this video:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/crilbd5i8neqnxt/2018-07-11 00.08.04.mp4?dl=0

 

Any ideas?

 

Yes, ignore the blinking light... It doesn't exactly correspond to the tempo that's controlling the effects. It's just there to give you a basic idea of the tempo, imo. If there are two hardware clocks - one controlling the internal tempo and one controlling the light, it's probably not something that can be changed via a firmware update. If the blinking light bothers you too much, you can always turn it off in the Global Settings menu.

 

I use my HXFX as the master clock for three other pedals, and as far as the tempo that matters, it's been rock solid.

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For some of us the accuracy of the tap light does genuinely matter. Since I raised this problem I've met others who have had the idea of doing what I'm doing (improv over repeating echoes), but have given up due to the tap light problem. That's a shame. I really hope it can be fixed with firmware.

 

TBH there's really no excuse anyway - that tap light should be accurate no matter what clock it is running from; the maths behind it is trivially simple.

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9 hours ago, The_Elf said:

For some of us the accuracy of the tap light does genuinely matter. Since I raised this problem I've met others who have had the idea of doing what I'm doing (improv over repeating echoes), but have given up due to the tap light problem. That's a shame. I really hope it can be fixed with firmware.

 

TBH there's really no excuse anyway - that tap light should be accurate no matter what clock it is running from; the maths behind it is trivially simple.

 

I have to agree with this although it does not really impact the way I play. If a traffic light turned green, I drove through and then got a traffic camera ticket anyway because the green light did not actually reflect when it was ok to go through the intersection I would not be happy (more fun with analogies).

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Generally, the blinking light is not an important issue. But in my case there are 2 problems:

- I used it to see the tempo and start a song.

- The drummer sees the light to start a song and to be sure he is on time.

 

It is clear that we can solve these problems by using a metronome.

 

Can we live without these problems? of course. But it hurts to have paid so much money.

 

And as i have written in facebook group:

 i went to rehearse with my band and i was like

"look i got a new multieffect that  it cost me a lollipoplo@d of money"

and the drummer says: "the tempo light is not working properly"

me: "lollipop my life"

 

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Just tested the delay versus tap light in 2.81...

 

It seems to be fixed! The delay repeats and tap light are glued together perfectly.

 

HUGE THANK YOU for this one!!!!

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That's an old issue. Happened also with the POD HD500.

They always say the same thing. The LED runs on a different clock than the tempo so it goes out of sync.

Just get used to it.

The good news is, the actual tempo doesn't drift. If the LED is confusing I think you can turn it off and just use your ears.

I don't think this can be fixed in future updates since they never fixed it in the PODs. We just have to hope they fix it in Helix MkII.

 

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1 minute ago, The_Elf said:

Errr... Did you read my post? It's fixed in 2.81!!!!

Sorry.

I did.

I'll have to check for myself. 

Like I said it's an old issue so I'm a bit skeptical if it's really fixed. 

I sync the tempo in my Helix with midi so maybe it's a different kind of issue with the LED.

If it is fixed that's great news and thank you Elf for your contribution! And L6!

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Well I'm simply running a LONG delay (feedback 99, lasting several minutes) and checking it against the tap light - no MIDI involved - but it's solid for me, at least if I leave everything else alone. For my purposes that's nailed it. Beyond that you'll have to see how your own tests work out.

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I'm bumping this topic. Having been fixed in 2.81, since 2.90 it is very, VERY broken again. The tap light is now way out - much worse than it was even before 2.81. Such a shame after having sorted it out. :o(

 

2.91 has done nothing to help. I'm considering reverting to 2.81, but don't know if that's possible.

 

I've raised a ticket, and the guys say it is already on the bug list. I very much hope it is high on the list.

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2.92 looks like it has fixed it! Thanks, guys!

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