Which HX Effects Units Are Faulty?

[soundog]

Line 6 has reported that "certain specific combinations of HX Effects units populated with out-of-spec parts and amplifiers and/or hookup configurations can manifest notable white noise and/or other unsavory audio artifacts." That's pretty vague (if you hear noise then you have the problem). I have a new unit and it sounds OK so far, but I haven't used it in every possible future configuration. I don't want to discover I have a bad unit sometime next year.

 

If the problem is due to a bad batch of components, then shouldn't Line 6 know which Serial Numbers were effected? 

[spikey]

Oh Line-6 is well aware of the serial numbers that were effected. That I have no doubt of.

 

So the question is, do you want serials xxxxxxxxxxx to xxxxxxxxxxxx? And dates too?

 

Ya know, that would cause lots of those with no issues in that range of serials to go spastic, demanding a new unit that didn't fall in that range "even if theirs is not malfunctioning yet"...

 

Now, do you really think that Line-6 is willing to just hand out those numbers to the GP, just because there "might" be issues on some of those like maybe you have? 

 

[jedwardzellers]

6 hours ago, spikey said:

 

"Now, do you really think that Line-6 is willing to just hand out those numbers to the GP, just because there "might" be issues on some of those like maybe you have? "

Yes. Line 6 screwed up and they should make it right. If there is even a chance that someone's unit shipped to them with out of spec parts it should be replaced. I don't think OP is in the wrong for wondering if the unit he paid his hard earned money on was sold to him in a faulty state.

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[soundog]

7 hours ago, spikey said:

Oh Line-6 is well aware of the serial numbers that were effected. That I have no doubt of.

 

So the question is, do you want serials xxxxxxxxxxx to xxxxxxxxxxxx?

 

Yes. Line 6 has already reported the faulty units are "extremely rare" so it shouldn't be a big deal to get 'em fixed and out of the marketplace, like any typical manufacturer's recall.

[codamedia]

I don't think it is a "rare number of units" I think it is a "rare number of users that use the unit in a way that exposes the problem"... and I believe Line 6 is handling these on a 1 by 1 case. 

 

I live in Canada so I cannot ship my unit back to Line 6 for a replacement with a "working" model. I need to go through my distributor, who tells me I have to go through my store! The store has brought in 3 units for me since I first brought this up with them... the three units have increasingly higher firmware on boots. EVERY UNIT HAS EXHIBITED THIS BEHAVIOR.

 

 After the last attempt I was convinced that I can't have the same problem so I opened another ticket with Line 6 and sent them a test patch and an audio clip of my problem.... they continue to confirm that yes indeed, that IS the same problem.... followed by "please contact your distributor for a replacement". (insert SCREAM here)

 

19 hours ago, spikey said:

Now, do you really think that Line-6 is willing to just hand out those numbers to the GP, just because there "might" be issues on some of those like maybe you have? 

 

Even if they don't share the serial numbers with the general public, I do expect them to hand those numbers out to all service depots and the distributors that are out of country so they can deal with the problem accordingly. So far, I have encountered 100% failure rate with the units shipping to my area! What are the odds of that with an extremely rare problem? 

[cruisinon2]

11 hours ago, jedwardzellers said:

Yes. Line 6 screwed up and they should make it right. If there is even a chance that someone's unit shipped to them with out of spec parts it should be replaced. I don't think OP is in the wrong for wondering if the unit he paid his hard earned money on was sold to him in a faulty state.

 

 

There is always a "chance" that you might receive a product with a defective part(s)... nothing is perfect, and that potential is inescapable. But no company interested in staying in business will invite headaches and expenses in the manner you suggest. It just won't happen...not without the risk of crippling financial liability if the device in question puts life and limb at risk, should it fail... in other words, until they start bursting into flames and leaving a trail of charred guitarist corpses, don't hold your breath for any "preventive" intervention from L6. I know some guys make their living with this stuff...I get paid to play, too... but when all is said and done, these things are toys. Annoying when they break, yes, but hardly life threatening. 

 

Now you could argue on moral/ethical grounds that companies "should" go out of their way like that, and I wouldn't even say you're wrong, but that doesn't make the expectation any less of a pipe dream....this is about money, not philosophical truths. Until we live in a world where anything and everything is free, this is how it's gonna be. Wringing your hands over it is pointless... worry about it if and when your unit fails. Till then, crack a beer and play guitar...

 

[codamedia]

1 hour ago, cruisinon2 said:

There is always a "chance" that you might receive a product with a defective part(s)... nothing is perfect, and that potential is inescapable. But no company interested in staying in business will invite headaches and expenses in the manner you suggest. It just won't happen...not without the risk of crippling financial liability if the device in question puts life and limb at risk, should it fail... in other words, until they start bursting into flames and leaving a trail of charred guitarist corpses, don't hold your breath for any "preventive" intervention from L6. I know some guys make their living with this stuff...I get paid to play, too... but when all is said and done, these things are toys. Annoying when they break, yes, but hardly life threatening. 

 

These are not toys to a professional, they are tools. If I were a carpenter and my $600 table saw and/or guide was 1/16" out of square I'd be expecting a replacement immediately. If the entire line of table saws was out of square I would expect a recall! It's not life threatening but that's not the point... people expect (and deserve) to get what they pay for. If I bought a $99 table saw (or a cheap $100 multi fx) I wouldn't care.... but the XH Effects is not a toy, it is marketed, and meant to be a tool for professionals!

 

IMO... They should release the serial number range of the potential units, and a "test patch" along with a recipe for checking to see if your unit is defective. (this is what I gave them... so they could confirm mine was a troubled unit)

 

1% or 2% of units with a problem is not the same as 1% or 2% of users that exploit the problem. If the latter is accurate,  98% of users shouldn't be stuck with a lemon! 

[phil_m]

7 minutes ago, codamedia said:

 

These are not toys to a professional, they are tools. If I were a carpenter and my $600 table saw and/or guide was 1/16" out of square I'd be expecting a replacement immediately. If the entire line of table saws was out of square I would expect a recall! It's not life threatening but that's not the point... people expect (and deserve) to get what they pay for. If I bought a $99 table saw (or a cheap $100 multi fx) I wouldn't care.... but the XH Effects is not a toy, it is marketed, and meant to be a professional tool!

 

 Well, not all of the units produced were affected. The fact that you found three with a fault simply means you were particularly unlucky... Line 6 actually opened up a bunch of units and tested the components to determine what was wrong and what percentage of units were affected. Regardless of the number, they'll fix or replace units that have the problem. That's really all they can do. Recalls generally have a dismal response rate, even when it's dealing with stuff that has the potential to kill people.

 

The problem with offering blanket fixes is that you get a lot of false positives. The bass player for my one band works at the Apple Store, and he was saying that when Apple started that offer to replace iPhone batteries for cheap, most of the ones he replaced were actually people who's battery was still working fine...

[soundog]

Recalls due to faulty components are not uncommon in the electronics world. And @cruisinon2, this is different than some random bad part, which I agree is bound to happen with almost any product. Instead it seems to have been a bad batch with a known fail rate. At a minimum, I feel customers should be provided with a test (specific preset) that would definitively expose the problem.

 

Don't get me wrong. The Helix is a great product line, including the HXFX. But the occasional "rare" bad online review of the HX FX seem to be for the bad units. An example: "I called Line 6 and they informed me that they had some reports of added noise/high end and asked if I'd send them some sound samples. I just didn't want to do R&D stuff for Line 6 at this time so I returned the unit." I'd want to prevent those units from getting into or back into the marketplace...better for business in the long run.

 

 

[codamedia]

I need to make something clear before I continue. Anyone that has read my offerings on these forums should recognize that I absolutely love the HX Effects... I am a huge supporter of the product! I am a very positive person and it pains me to go public in this thread (I've held off doing so for a few months) but in this case I agree with the OP... and the others here that believe Line 6 should be more forthcoming and not leave it completely in the hands of the buyer to stumble on the problem. 

 

37 minutes ago, phil_m said:

Well, not all of the units produced were affected. The fact that you found three with a fault simply means you were particularly unlucky... 

 

Just to be clear... besides my affected unit, it was three other units, from three additional shipments, loaded with three different firmware versions. Unlucky is an understatement for a problem that is only suppose to affect a small number of units. 

 

37 minutes ago, phil_m said:

 Regardless of the number, they'll fix or replace units that have the problem. That's really all they can do.

 

I wish it were that easy... Please read my first post in this thread :)

 

Sure, eventually my distributor and store may get a good unit, but in the meantime I'm stuck with a defective unit and I know of 3 faulty units sitting on the shelf waiting to be purchased! Worse yet.... the distributor hasn't been givin' a directive or even a test to perform on these units so they don't make it to the store shelf. 

 

37 minutes ago, phil_m said:

The problem with offering blanket fixes is that you get a lot of false positives.

 

I'm not suggesting a blanket fix... I'm suggesting a blanket TEST and a range of serial numbers. IMO, it would put people more at ease and put the worries behind them. Worst case scenario.... they discover they have a bad HX that needs replacing.... exactly what Line 6 says they want to do!

[phil_m]

16 minutes ago, codamedia said:

I need to make something clear before I continue. Anyone that has read my offerings on these forums should recognize that I absolutely love the HX Effects... I am a huge supporter of the product! I am a very positive person and it pains me to go public in this thread (I've held off doing so for a few months) but in this case I agree with the OP... and the others here that believe Line 6 should be more forthcoming and not leave it completely in the hands of the buyer to stumble on the problem. 

 

 

Just to be clear... besides my affected unit, it was three other units, from three additional shipments, loaded with three different firmware versions. Unlucky is an understatement for a problem that is only suppose to affect a small number of units. 

 

 

I wish it were that easy... Please read my first post in this thread :)

 

Sure, eventually my distributor and store may get a good unit, but in the meantime I'm stuck with a defective unit and I know of 3 faulty units sitting on the shelf waiting to be purchased! Worse yet.... the distributor hasn't been givin' a directive or even a test to perform on these units so they don't make it to the store shelf. 

 

 

Are you on Facebook? If so, you should contact Frank Ritchotte... He has a knack for making these sorts of problems go away...

[cruisinon2]

1 hour ago, codamedia said:

IMO... They should release the serial number range of the potential units, and a "test patch" along with a recipe for checking to see if your unit is defective. (this is what I gave them... so they could confirm mine was a troubled unit)

 

 

Ok, but they won't. That's really all there is to it... first rule of warranty coverage is "Don't unless we have to". Just like a fender- bender... never admit fault. Welcome to a world where all the rules are made by lawyers, for the benefit of other lawyers...

[soundog]

In America, all the rules are being made by reality TV stars. 

[HonestOpinion]

9 hours ago, codamedia said:

I need to make something clear before I continue. Anyone that has read my offerings on these forums should recognize that I absolutely love the HX Effects... I am a huge supporter of the product! I am a very positive person and it pains me to go public in this thread (I've held off doing so for a few months) but in this case I agree with the OP... and the others here that believe Line 6 should be more forthcoming and not leave it completely in the hands of the buyer to stumble on the problem. 

 

 

Just to be clear... besides my affected unit, it was three other units, from three additional shipments, loaded with three different firmware versions. Unlucky is an understatement for a problem that is only suppose to affect a small number of units. 

 

 

I wish it were that easy... Please read my first post in this thread :)

 

Sure, eventually my distributor and store may get a good unit, but in the meantime I'm stuck with a defective unit and I know of 3 faulty units sitting on the shelf waiting to be purchased! Worse yet.... the distributor hasn't been givin' a directive or even a test to perform on these units so they don't make it to the store shelf. 

 

 

I'm not suggesting a blanket fix... I'm suggesting a blanket TEST and a range of serial numbers. IMO, it would put people more at ease and put the worries behind them. Worst case scenario.... they discover they have a bad HX that needs replacing.... exactly what Line 6 says they want to do!

 

I totally hear your frustration and I think it is justified. Even though the "right" thing to do in these situations might be to post the serial number ranges for the affected units and do a mass recall, that would incur massive expenses for Line6 when the defect might not impact a significant percentage of users. All unaffected users who are not impacted benefit from lower unit costs by Line6 not incurring that recall cost. With that said, I agree with your premise that in a perfect world the company takes the hit, and is incentivized to do better QA and parts procurement in the future to avoid the bad PR and the expense of this sort of thing happening. If it is a bad part and Line6 is not to blame hopefully they can pass the cost on back to their manufacturer or parts supplier.

 

I would agree with phil_m here, reach out to Frank Ritchotte or Will or escalate through Line6 phone support and ask them to send out a swap for you with a unit they have tested at Line6 so you don't keep having to play faulty unit roulette. I am inclined to believe they may make an exception to their usual return policy after you have encountered so many faulty units. Sorry you are having to go through the hassle on this. I have been there.

[cruisinon2]

5 hours ago, soundog said:

In America, all the rules are being made by reality TV stars. 

 

...and the Twitter Mob 

[iamnexus77]

I am sure it is probably explained elsewhere, but would someone please explain how we can check our units for the problem ourselves? What were all the bad ones from the store doing, specifically? Thanks! 

[soundog]

@iamnexus77, I haven't seen it explained anywhere; its vague. If we can't check serial numbers, then at least a repeatable, definitive test or preset would be very helpful (preferably without having to use specific external send/return pedals). Especially for someone who is trying one out to buy, or someone who suspects they are having odd noise issues. Why such a mystery?

[codamedia]

All I will say is it's an easy test, nothing external is needed.

Any more than that will be up to Line 6 to share... please understand, it is not my place and I won't have anything more to say on this matter :)

 

 

[soundog]

Fair enough, I understand and thanks @codamedia.

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[spikey]

On 8/8/2018 at 6:18 PM, cruisinon2 said:

 

...and the Twitter Mob 

Remeber you have to buy it to find out whats in it.... ; )

[phil_m]

On 8/10/2018 at 11:43 AM, soundog said:

@iamnexus77, I haven't seen it explained anywhere; its vague. If we can't check serial numbers, then at least a repeatable, definitive test or preset would be very helpful (preferably without having to use specific external send/return pedals). Especially for someone who is trying one out to buy, or someone who suspects they are having odd noise issues. Why such a mystery?

 

The main symptom of the faulty units is high noise floor when used with certain amps. It’s like a white noise/hiss. I guess one way to test is to compare the signal with the unit in analog bypass and DSP bypass. There shouldn’t be additional noise in either setting, but with the defective units, DSP bypass will be noisier.

[soundog]

If that's a worthy test, then my HXFX is OK; I hear no difference between analog and DSP bypass. But I'm running the unit into a PA, not an amp.

[jarges]

On 8/11/2018 at 8:52 PM, phil_m said:

 

The main symptom of the faulty units is high noise floor when used with certain amps. It’s like a white noise/hiss. I guess one way to test is to compare the signal with the unit in analog bypass and DSP bypass. There shouldn’t be additional noise in either setting, but with the defective units, DSP bypass will be noisier.