A Thank you, announcement of appreciation and a general sense of victory!!

[themetallikid]

FIrst of all, I'd like to say thank you to everyone here that is helpful in their responses, but also those that ask questions that also prompt myself (and others) to approach things differently and explore a bit to educate yourself about rigs/blocks/effects etc.   Big shout out to those who post video tutorials (Jason Sadites to name a primary one for myself, and others who just escape me at the moment).  Those tutorials have helped me think about things and approach things without a guitar in my hand and allowed me to really do some neat things.

 

Why all these words?   My Stone Temple Pilots band had our first headlining show this past weekend.  While the venue was, a'hem, not the grandest.....the crowd was into our setlist (after another band opened for 2 hours).  All that is great....but my real satisfaction comes from programming my Helix and being happy with it, but also being efficient and well prepared for sound guys as we do not run our own sound and I dont like to let that control go away easily.  

 

HOWEVER....    While we performed great.....at the end while tearing down, I asked the sound guy (who I had already qualified as a great guy, knowledgeable, geeky like me with gear, and an overworker in his field compared to others) how my guitar sounded...and he said it sounded great.  I asked what he did to help me get in the mix to file that information away when I make my next adjustments...and his response, "Dude, I didn't have to touch your guitar.  I ran your guitar flat.  Thats the first time I've ever run a guitar players rig flat.  Anyone that has to EQ your guitar in a mix, needs to retune their PA!"   I immediately put my arms in the air, and with a fist pump added a 'F*ck yeah'!!   I then asked how my lead boosts were, and he said they were great.  He literally had to do nothing to my guitar all night.  

 

I've never felt such satisfaction from a group of 25 presets in my playing life.  30 years, 16 of that is running direct (Boss, Line 6, Fractal).   

 

Just wanted to share as it was 2 days ago and I'm still proud of those comments.  

 

 

 

Edit:  Oh, and yes....for those that say the stock cabs aren't good enough.  Maybe in a studio realm they lack something a special IR does have.  But my presets in this set all used 2 stock cabs in parallel.   

[rd2rk]

Bravo!

Everybody here knows that you work hard at this.

You certainly ask enough questions!

Rock On!

[codamedia]

On 4/25/2022 at 4:25 PM, themetallikid said:

"Dude, I didn't have to touch your guitar.  I ran your guitar flat"

 

That's a great feeling isn't it? Especially coming from a respected tech. Congratulations!

 

I find that respected techs understand this approach and appreciate it... inexperienced (or ignorant) techs need to be told (sometimes often) to flatten the strip, at least as a starting point. 

 

 

[themetallikid]

On 4/25/2022 at 4:40 PM, rd2rk said:

Bravo!

Everybody here knows that you work hard at this.

You certainly ask enough questions!

Rock On!

Well, my damn mind just wont shut off with this stuff.  Its a good thing is a paid hobby and not a career.  lol.    

 

 

 

 

On 4/25/2022 at 4:40 PM, codamedia said:

 

That's a great feeling isn't it? Especially coming from a respected tech. Congratulations!

 

I find that respected techs understand this approach and appreciate it... inexperienced (or ignorant) techs need to be told (sometimes often) to flatten the strip, at least as a starting point. 

 

 

I agree...the number of times I told them I was running a line level signal and still blew ears out when they turned my channel on makes me shrug.  

 

lol

 

 

The band before us, one guy was using a Marshall head into an Orange cab with a 57 on it.  Sounded horrible on its own, but sat well in the mix.  Credit to the sound guy there too.   Singer/Guitar guy was playing a Headrush.  It was decent, without sounding biased, I liked my helix better, but there are so many variables its like comparing apples to deoderant.  Not even close with information given.   

 

I did find it interesting he was going into a 1x12 power cab, but then had that mic'd.   That confused me a bit, why not run direct out.  Does the direct out not just send whatever speaker sound you have out the output link?

[rd2rk]

On 4/25/2022 at 3:48 PM, themetallikid said:

I did find it interesting he was going into a 1x12 power cab, but then had that mic'd.   That confused me a bit, why not run direct out.  Does the direct out not just send whatever speaker sound you have out the output link?

 

If he was using one of the speaker emulations, the XLR Out is an emulation of the emulation with an added mic emulation on top.

A virtualization of a virtualization.

Could be he just prefers the sound of an actual mic on the actual emulated speaker.

[ossianott]

Sorry for a newbie Q, but I have not figured out what the need for two parallell cabs are, could you explain? Maybe I could watch a video to understand the concept.

 

Do you use your own monitor? Can you get some kind of realistic feedback when not using a real cab on stage from the monitors?

 

Do you also provide from a helix stereo send, a instrument signal>di box for mic signal as a backup for FOH if they don't like the idea of line signal?

 

I'm not overwhelmed by the sound from my hx stomp when comparing to some really top level productions (studio Fredman stuff) for downtuned metal guitar sounds, probably not a fair comparison as I'm nowhere close to that level of expertise. I've however spent countless of hours tweaking mostly using IRs, it sounds ok for iem/rehearsal but when I compare it to major downtuned metal releases which I really like it never sound alive in the same sense. Do you tweak at high spl on a stage monitor or studio monitors? Sorry for all the questions, I love my hx stomp and want to get every ounce of performance from it.

[rd2rk]

On 4/25/2022 at 5:00 PM, ossianott said:

Sorry for a newbie Q, but I have not figured out what the need for two parallell cabs are, could you explain? Maybe I could watch a video to understand the concept.

 

 

People do it for lots of reasons. One common one is to use different speakers panned L/R for a fuller sound, or to have stereo FX move across the sound field.

 

On 4/25/2022 at 5:00 PM, ossianott said:

Do you use your own monitor? Can you get some kind of realistic feedback when not using a real cab on stage from the monitors?

 

Feedback is about volume and pickup position relative to the speaker. You CAN get feedback from a monitor, but it's more difficult and annoying for others onstage than walking back to an elevated amp in the backline.

 

On 4/25/2022 at 5:00 PM, ossianott said:

Do you also provide from a helix stereo send, a instrument signal>di box for mic signal as a backup for FOH if they don't like the idea of line signal?

 

Just change the XLR signal output level from LINE to MIC in Global Settings>Ins/Outs.

EDIT: Just noticed you have a Stomp. In that case change the Output Level (assuming that you're using an FX Send for FOH) to INST.

 

On 4/25/2022 at 5:00 PM, ossianott said:

I'm not overwhelmed by the sound from my hx stomp when comparing to some really top level productions (studio Fredman stuff) for downtuned metal guitar sounds, probably not a fair comparison as I'm nowhere close to that level of expertise. I've however spent countless of hours tweaking mostly using IRs, it sounds ok for iem/rehearsal but when I compare it to major downtuned metal releases which I really like it never sound alive in the same sense. Do you tweak at high spl on a stage monitor or studio monitors?

 

IMO - That type of tone ain't ever gonna sound "right" coming out of monitors or in IEMs. It needs a real (preferably tube) power amp into a proper 4x12 cab and yes, loud. OTOH, IRs in a recording can sound great, but getting that sound is what producers pay studio engineers the big bucks for. You can do it, but it takes practice. Patience Grasshopper!

 

[themetallikid]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:00 PM, ossianott said:

Sorry for a newbie Q, but I have not figured out what the need for two parallell cabs are, could you explain? Maybe I could watch a video to understand the concept.

 

Do you use your own monitor? Can you get some kind of realistic feedback when not using a real cab on stage from the monitors?

 

Do you also provide from a helix stereo send, a instrument signal>di box for mic signal as a backup for FOH if they don't like the idea of line signal?

 

I'm not overwhelmed by the sound from my hx stomp when comparing to some really top level productions (studio Fredman stuff) for downtuned metal guitar sounds, probably not a fair comparison as I'm nowhere close to that level of expertise. I've however spent countless of hours tweaking mostly using IRs, it sounds ok for iem/rehearsal but when I compare it to major downtuned metal releases which I really like it never sound alive in the same sense. Do you tweak at high spl on a stage monitor or studio monitors? Sorry for all the questions, I love my hx stomp and want to get every ounce of performance from it.

The split cabs for me are a necessity of this project and the tone I'm trying to emulate.   HOWEVER....this has taught me something that I have utilized in another project.  I dont have my Helix connected right now, but I can attach a preset tomorrow night maybe and you can download and see what difference it makes.  You have a stomp, so I dont know if it'll work though.  

 

For me, this project runs 2 amps.  I'm using one amp to get an edge of breakup to mild breakup tone on one amp into a cab I label "Brite" cab and the other with a darker sound into a "Dark" cab.    

 

If I remember correctly, I'm about drinks in at the moment and going from memory, my rig template for presets for this band is this:

 

Amp A - Fender Deluxe - Mesa EQ (highlighting 750/2.2khz/6.6khz to help with bite/clarity - Brite Cab (I think its the Vox 2x12 with a 57 or 421 mic.

Amp B - Orange Rockerverb - Mesa EQ (highlighting 80/240 frequencies, scoop 750 a few db, and add 2.5/6.6 to add enough definition) - Dark Cab (Mesa V30 cab, 160 Mic I think)

 

With this setup, I need a thick chunky type sound, but adding the Fender gives me some nice clarity to the pick attack.  

 

[ossianott]

On 4/26/2022 at 1:31 AM, rd2rk said:

 

People do it for lots of reasons. One common one is to use different speakers panned L/R for a fuller sound, or to have stereo FX move across the sound field.

 

 

Feedback is about volume and pickup position relative to the speaker. You CAN get feedback from a monitor, but it's more difficult and annoying for others onstage than walking back to an elevated amp in the backline.

 

 

Just change the XLR signal output level from LINE to MIC in Global Settings>Ins/Outs.

EDIT: Just noticed you have a Stomp. In that case change the Output Level (assuming that you're using an FX Send for FOH) to INST.

 

 

IMO - That type of tone ain't ever gonna sound "right" coming out of monitors or in IEMs. It needs a real (preferably tube) power amp into a proper 4x12 cab and yes, loud. OTOH, IRs in a recording can sound great, but getting that sound is what producers pay studio engineers the big bucks for. You can do it, but it takes practice. Patience Grasshopper!

Thanks! I just bought a marshall MF400a cab as it's supposed to be very good for downtuned metal, gonna be experimenting with HX stomp amps run to that (+ the other 4x12 we have for the other guitarist) thru SS amps, and micing up to leave out the IR's. If this could yield a more natural sound similar to the sounds from top notch recordings it would be awesome, that said micing cabs seem to be a delicate subject and easy to fail aswell, the amp sim part of the helix will anyhow not be the bottleneck me thinks. Also looking to get a bit of that natural feedback from a real guitar cab. For IEM rehearsals IR is good enough tho.

We also have a peavey 6505 so we'll experiment with helix amps compared to that one aswell. So many options these days! 

[ossianott]

On 4/26/2022 at 4:52 AM, themetallikid said:

The split cabs for me are a necessity of this project and the tone I'm trying to emulate.   HOWEVER....this has taught me something that I have utilized in another project.  I dont have my Helix connected right now, but I can attach a preset tomorrow night maybe and you can download and see what difference it makes.  You have a stomp, so I dont know if it'll work though.  

 

For me, this project runs 2 amps.  I'm using one amp to get an edge of breakup to mild breakup tone on one amp into a cab I label "Brite" cab and the other with a darker sound into a "Dark" cab.    

 

If I remember correctly, I'm about drinks in at the moment and going from memory, my rig template for presets for this band is this:

 

Amp A - Fender Deluxe - Mesa EQ (highlighting 750/2.2khz/6.6khz to help with bite/clarity - Brite Cab (I think its the Vox 2x12 with a 57 or 421 mic.

Amp B - Orange Rockerverb - Mesa EQ (highlighting 80/240 frequencies, scoop 750 a few db, and add 2.5/6.6 to add enough definition) - Dark Cab (Mesa V30 cab, 160 Mic I think)

 

With this setup, I need a thick chunky type sound, but adding the Fender gives me some nice clarity to the pick attack.  

 

Thanks, I've got very limited DSP power as I'm running two guitars from one HX stomp, my aim is to just have a proper metal tone from each guitar + a delay/filter on one of them. I've already accidentaly tried importing a helix preset to my stomp and it froze and I had to do a factory reset so I don't think they are compatible. If I could make a stereo cab block sound as good as my best IR's I'd be a happy chap to save some DSP, I've tried a lot but it's not easy, tilt EQ is interesting in these cases, sounds very much like moving the microphone around on the speaker to find it's sweetspot, as kindly recommended by someone on this forum aswell. 

 

Stone temple pilots sound great and seem to use quite a bit of distortion and if you can get these results only going direct, congrats!

[spaceatl]

On 4/25/2022 at 5:25 PM, themetallikid said:

FIrst of all, I'd like to say thank you to everyone here that is helpful in their responses, but also those that ask questions that also prompt myself (and others) to approach things differently and explore a bit to educate yourself about rigs/blocks/effects etc.   Big shout out to those who post video tutorials (Jason Sadites to name a primary one for myself, and others who just escape me at the moment).  Those tutorials have helped me think about things and approach things without a guitar in my hand and allowed me to really do some neat things.

 

Why all these words?   My Stone Temple Pilots band had our first headlining show this past weekend.  While the venue was, a'hem, not the grandest.....the crowd was into our setlist (after another band opened for 2 hours).  All that is great....but my real satisfaction comes from programming my Helix and being happy with it, but also being efficient and well prepared for sound guys as we do not run our own sound and I dont like to let that control go away easily.  

 

HOWEVER....    While we performed great.....at the end while tearing down, I asked the sound guy (who I had already qualified as a great guy, knowledgeable, geeky like me with gear, and an overworker in his field compared to others) how my guitar sounded...and he said it sounded great.  I asked what he did to help me get in the mix to file that information away when I make my next adjustments...and his response, "Dude, I didn't have to touch your guitar.  I ran your guitar flat.  Thats the first time I've ever run a guitar players rig flat.  Anyone that has to EQ your guitar in a mix, needs to retune their PA!"   I immediately put my arms in the air, and with a fist pump added a 'F*ck yeah'!!   I then asked how my lead boosts were, and he said they were great.  He literally had to do nothing to my guitar all night.  

 

I've never felt such satisfaction from a group of 25 presets in my playing life.  30 years, 16 of that is running direct (Boss, Line 6, Fractal).   

 

Just wanted to share as it was 2 days ago and I'm still proud of those comments.  

 

 

 

Edit:  Oh, and yes....for those that say the stock cabs aren't good enough.  Maybe in a studio realm they lack something a special IR does have.  But my presets in this set all used 2 stock cabs in parallel.   

 

That is a very satisfying moment and congrats to you for chipping away at it until you found what you needed to do to get the flat strip! I have been doing that since HD when it was finally good enough imo for me to make the jump from amps to FRFR and I have never looked back. So cool to read posts like this! Nice one!

[craiganderton]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:00 PM, ossianott said:

I'm not overwhelmed by the sound from my hx stomp when comparing to some really top level productions (studio Fredman stuff) for downtuned metal guitar sounds.

 

If you're talking about sounds obtained in the studio, perhaps they're not using real-time pitch shifting. For example, Waves has a pitch-shifting plug-in that sounds really good, but with 150 ms or so of latency, it's intended only for offline processing while mixing. Some DAWs have a real-time pitch option for "proofing" a song, but then you need to do an offline, non-real-time bounce to unlock the best possible fidelity.

[ossianott]

On 4/26/2022 at 5:31 PM, craiganderton said:

 

If you're talking about sounds obtained in the studio, perhaps they're not using real-time pitch shifting. For example, Waves has a pitch-shifting plug-in that sounds really good, but with 150 ms or so of latency, it's intended only for offline processing while mixing. Some DAWs have a real-time pitch option for "proofing" a song, but then you need to do an offline, non-real-time bounce to unlock the best possible fidelity.

 

We don't do any digital down pitching, thick strings & manual downtune is our melody! I did digital for a while but only due to me not having the right string gauge. Thanks for your suggestion tho!