Do You Have The Same Problem With 6th String?

[MiroslavKloud]

I hope, that "quest of cause" is definitively abandoned and now comes : The solution!

[MiroslavKloud]

A little boring here. We have 400 posts, it wants a celebration.

Line6 director should utter a solemn speech.

Maybe something like this:

 

"Dear customers,

in this solemn moment, thank you for purchasing of our products and for your patience. We have reason to celebrate. 400 posts!

So many, many words have been written without anything been said. It is not a shame. This is a success - our great success!

I thank you also to all our employees who worked tirelessly and again and again they said - nothing.

Thanks again to all and for the future I wish nerves of steel. "

[JTSC777]

"If you meet Buddha on the road kill him!" Great little book I highly recommend to everyone posting on this thread. Players/ employees/ experts / service moderators/ associates etc....

 

The answer is there is no answer.

 

Dont look over here look over there.

 

Thats probably good enough in 2015.

 

Anyone old enough to remember Iron Butterfly should know that 30 years ago no company could survive with non- answers/ obfuscation and discombobulation.

 

In the words of the Roland service technician who gave me the ole' look over here not over there bs.

 

" Maybe it is all in your head sir."

[cruisinon2]

Anyone old enough to remember Iron Butterfly should know that 30 years ago no company could survive with non- answers/ obfuscation and discombobulation.

 

It is aggravating, no?

 

The body affects the modeling, but you can't correct for it....well actually you can, but I can't talk about it, so let's talk about the switches instead...can't tell you what it is, but I'll say it's not the firmware.

 

Try raising the action by 4 microns, see if that helps....no electron microscope? Just eyeball it. Which way is the wind blowing when you hear the artifact? Have someone face south and juggle 3 chipmunks, wearing nothing but boxer shorts and a left sock, while you adjust the string height. The height of the mag pickups is critical too, but the specs are a state secret...which we've entrusted to the 19 yr old at GC who does their set-ups (he's "authorized"), but that info is off-limits to anyone who shelled out $1K for the guitar.

 

Haydn's Guesswork Serenade, Op. 5

[ice9mike]

The only answer is to return the guitar until you find one that sounds great. They do exist. I have had 2 JTVs (59 and 69) that have sounded great, and one (jtv-89F) that sounded horrible with the exact same plinky sound issue as others.

 

Never once did anyone at Line 6 acknowledged that they could even hear the issue. The closest they have come is to suggest that is how a strat is supposed to sound. Which is not like any strat I have ever heard.

 

I was lucky to buy my JTV's from Sweetwater who accepts returns for things like this. Yet, it is still really frustrating to keep reading this thread which has the 2nd most number of replies in this forum and still no resolution on the issue.

[psarkissian]

Non- answers and obfuscation??? Hardly.

 

Mr M is have a problem with some sort of over-ring that's injected into the signal. Yes I do hear it just fine. And the guy from L.R.Baggs explained a number of things about the aspects about piezos (which I got into early on in this thread). Now, it's a matter of narrowing down the source.

 

As for the the Model itself is from a vintage 59 Strat. I've had this talk with the programmer. Yes, it's going to have a bit more something about it that unfortunately Miroslav doesn't like. Popular with blues players, but not with metal players (seems to be the pattern). So yes, that particular Strat is supposed to have that kind of Low-E sound. Apparently it doesn't mix well with how Miroslav is using it.

"The body affects the modeling, but you can't correct for it....well actually you can, but I can't talk about it, so let's talk about the switches instead...can't tell you what it is, but I'll say it's not the firmware"----  right, "can't correct for it",... but it can be mediated or mitigated some.

 

I don't have these problems with my four JTV's, and is a rare thing with all the JTV's I work on. I also play through something other that HD500/500X, so my effects module gains are different, and those frequencies Miroslav is having a problem with, "don't stand out as much" on my set-up.

 

And yeah, I'm tired of bringing up my lengthy ciriculum vittae too. Normally, I would enjoy the snappy reparte',... but it doesn't help with a solution to the problem at hand. And as mentioned before this thread is lengthy.

 

A number of causes have already been eliminated from the list of causes. Any other ideas?

[MiroslavKloud]

" And the guy from L.R.Baggs explained a number of things about the aspects about piezos" - "What I can say, is that the "clank tone" as it is commonly defined, is, in fact, part of every Piezo bridge pickup."

 

"Now, it's a matter of narrowing down the source." - Ask the guy from L.R.Baggs.

 

"As for the the Model itself is from a vintage 59 Strat. I've had this talk with the programmer. Yes, it's going to have a bit more something about it that unfortunately Miroslav doesn't like. Popular with blues players, but not with metal players (seems to be the pattern). So yes, that particular Strat is supposed to have that kind of Low-E sound." 

Strat is supposed to have that kind of Low-E sound. ?

Telecaster is supposed to have that kind of Low-E sound. ??

Gibsons are supposed to have that kind of Low-E sound. ??? 

Rickenbacker is supposed to have that kind of Low-E sound. ????

Gretsch also?

I'm not a metal player.

 

"A number of causes have already been eliminated from the list of causes. Any other ideas?" - "What is clang-tone? Clang-tone, or wolf tone, is a sound inherent in a vibrating string. A string vibrates in three modes: Torsional, Longitudinal, and Transverse. Torsional vibration does not produce a sound wave – it is the string just twisting like a drive shaft in a car. Longitudinal vibration is what the magnetic pickups on a guitar are “hearing†and reproducing. Transverse vibration is a wave going up and down the string as it is stretches and relaxes longitudinally. Magnetic pickups do not reproduce Transverse vibration, but it is the type of vibration that a piezo pickup “hears,†and it produces the clang. Some describe its sound as a “ping†or “plink.†It is there even on acoustic guitars....

...They did a great job. Between Lloyd and Michel’s work on the clang-tone issue, and some slick DSP algorithms by our engineering and sound design guys, clang-tone has been essentially eliminated. 

On the string A5 - Yes. E6 on the string - not.

[psarkissian]

Being the owner of a Ricki and a Gibson,... yes, I've A/B them.

 

Right, I seem to recall you weren't a metal player, I'm not a

metal player either,... much, but some of them who ask me about

this thread  are.

[clay-man]

The only answer is to return the guitar until you find one that sounds great. They do exist. I have had 2 JTVs (59 and 69) that have sounded great, and one (jtv-89F) that sounded horrible with the exact same plinky sound issue as others.

 

Never once did anyone at Line 6 acknowledged that they could even hear the issue. The closest they have come is to suggest that is how a strat is supposed to sound. Which is not like any strat I have ever heard.

 

I was lucky to buy my JTV's from Sweetwater who accepts returns for things like this. Yet, it is still really frustrating to keep reading this thread which has the 2nd most number of replies in this forum and still no resolution on the issue.

 

 

I did do this, ironically the first guitar was the best sounding guitar, and even more ironically, I didn't have any real tonal problems, and mistaken a glitch in the coding as an electronic defect (if you program a high tuning and use a 12 string setting, you will get offtone sounding notes sometimes)

 

After that I replaced it once, notice the 6th string sounded a bit plinky than my previous guitar I got from Sweetwater, then swapped for a third guitar that sounded exactly the same.

 

Now, I don't know if it was just my imagination or not, but I swear to god, the first guitar I got had a 6th string that sounded like butter (something I've noticed straight away since my Variax 600 has a plink issue as well on the Les Paul setting).

 

I noticed it right away. The biggest give away is comparing the 6th string to all the other strings.

 

The plink isn't horrible, and it's actually very passible, but I was getting my DREAM GUITAR, you know? If I heard my first guitar sounding the best and get lesser sounding guitars, I'm going to complain.

[MiroslavKloud]

Line 6 employee wrote a post #406: "Non- answers and obfuscation??? Hardly...."

I responded in the post #407 - I believe that it is relevant and understandable to everyone who read this forum.

Line 6 employee responded in the post #408 - relevant content - nothing.

[snowgoose50]

Hi all,

I'm new to this thread and I've just read all 410 posts,  having just bought a JTV 69s....

A hesitant suggestion:

When I listened to the audio examples, I interpreted what I assume to be the "plinky noise" as pick scrape.

I know someone mentioned that it was still there when playing with fingernails, but has anyone tried using picks of different hardness to see if that affects the tone? I noticed the piezos on my Variax 700 were very sensitive to any noise from the pick if it slid across the string windings at all during the pluck stroke, and I had to be careful with my technique. Maybe a nylon pick would be quieter than a hard plastic one. It's a bit like scraping the mesh on a microphone. The string would carry the noise directly to the piezo.

Cheers

Simon

[MiroslavKloud]

This is a sensible idea, but it would prove on the all strings. Not only E6.

I am preparing a new video, which will be much more in detail showing the problem.

[snowgoose50]

I agree, but it would be worst on the E6 due to the coarse string winding. I just tried sliding my pick down the strings (unamplified) and the E6 is loudest by far.

Also, the piezos would be much more sensitive to the noise than magnetics.

 

I must say that I became increasingly saddened with your battles over this problem as I read through the posts.

Good luck !

[Rocco_Crocco]

Hi all,

I'm new to this thread and I've just read all 410 posts,  having just bought a JTV 69s....

A hesitant suggestion:

When I listened to the audio examples, I interpreted what I assume to be the "plinky noise" as pick scrape.

I know someone mentioned that it was still there when playing with fingernails, but has anyone tried using picks of different hardness to see if that affects the tone? I noticed the piezos on my Variax 700 were very sensitive to any noise from the pick if it slid across the string windings at all during the pluck stroke, and I had to be careful with my technique. Maybe a nylon pick would be quieter than a hard plastic one. It's a bit like scraping the mesh on a microphone. The string would carry the noise directly to the piezo.

Cheers

Simon

Yes I have tried a wood pick, a horn pick and my usual Dunlop Ultex pick and the plink was always there, until I filed the piezo casing. Now its fine.

[snowgoose50]

 

I believe that the 11-gauge strings can remedy the problem - it makes sense if the cause is the L-wave. It is not logical, if the cause is elsewhere. But the 11-gauge creates a new problem with my tendons. 10-gauge is the limit for me.

I do not play heavy metal. Rather classic rock and blues sometimes.

I'm stubborn and I want to my guitar (and not only mine) works with any strings.

 

Hi all,

No further suggestions on the cause, but if thicker strings will help, then why not try the D'Addario Light Top/Heavy Bottom set EXL140. The gauges are 10/13/17/30/42/52.

This will give you your heavier bass strings without making the treble strings harder to bend.

I have been using this set for years on my Variax 700 as it gives a very solid bottom end and a much more realistic feel for acoustic guitar sounds. It also gives a great twangy bass on the telecaster sounds.

I also use it on my strat.

Cheers, Simon

[clay-man]

Hi all,

I'm new to this thread and I've just read all 410 posts,  having just bought a JTV 69s....

A hesitant suggestion:

When I listened to the audio examples, I interpreted what I assume to be the "plinky noise" as pick scrape.

I know someone mentioned that it was still there when playing with fingernails, but has anyone tried using picks of different hardness to see if that affects the tone? I noticed the piezos on my Variax 700 were very sensitive to any noise from the pick if it slid across the string windings at all during the pluck stroke, and I had to be careful with my technique. Maybe a nylon pick would be quieter than a hard plastic one. It's a bit like scraping the mesh on a microphone. The string would carry the noise directly to the piezo.

Cheers

Simon

 

I have noticed the sound decreases when picking parallel to the string instead of at an angle, especially on tremolo picking.

 

It is part of the pick attack, but strangly it only happens on the E6 string and nothing else.

[clay-man]

Also about using thicker strings, I have noticed the problem wade away from switching between a set of 9's to a set of 10's.

 

He is on the right track honestly. I just don't get why it only happens to the E6 string though.

[MiroslavKloud]

Also about using thicker strings, I have noticed the problem wade away from switching between a set of 9's to a set of 10's.

 

He is on the right track honestly. I just don't get why it only happens to the E6 string though.

Firmware.

[snowgoose50]

From what I can see, the problem is inherent to the use of piezo pickups, and that all of the causes suggested in this thread are probably true to greater or lesser extent. It arises from the way piezos detect string vibrations, which differs from magnetics, and is also sensitive to extraneous noise. 

 

A magnetic pickup detects mainly the lateral movement of the string far from the bridge and it is most sensitive to the fundamental tone being played. If you move the pickup closer to the bridge, the lateral movement of the string becomes more dominated by the harmonics of the fundamental note and the sound becomes more trebly. Magnetic pickups are relatively insensitive to extraneous noises on the string like fret buzz, pick scrapes etc because they produce little lateral amplitude in the string relative to the amplitude of the fundamental tone. 

 

Piezos are located in the bridge where there is almost zero lateral movement of the strings. The fundamental note as well as all of the harmonics have essentially equal amplitude there, so they are all detected, which is why piezos sound incredibly bright. This is good for modelling because it's what happens to all of those harmonics in different guitars that determines why guitars sound different in the first place, and why the Variax can model them.

 

The down side is that piezos also detect non-musical vibrations equally well, as they are in intimate contact with the strings, the bridge and, to a lesser extent, the body of the guitar. So things that affect the strings like pick noise, fret buzz, buzzing on the piezo casing (a la Rocco_Crocco) will all be picked up and transmitted. (I said above why I think the E6 is most affected by pick noise). Also they will detect noise from operation of the tremolo arm, sympathetic vibrations of the tremolo springs (I damped mine with foam rubber) and anything loose in the body, like a rattling washer. They may also be sensitive to longitudinal waves in the string as Miroslav suggested - if the guitar has a tremolo bridge, then it is not static, but part of a resonant system with the tremolo springs, so I am sure that it moves longitudinally unless clamped down. 

 

The firmware can't really solve this problem. The modelling reproduces the difference between the sound of the Variax piezo and, say, a Les Paul, but both sounds will have been as recorded on the day by a player with a particular pick on particular strings with a particular technique. I am sure they did multiple recordings to get the average difference, and on a good day, the models work incredibly well. But the models couldn't know that you are using a different pick or different technique so there will always be slight differences. Most importantly, I don't see how extraneous noises could ever be dealt with.

 

So as far as I can see, it's inherent in the technology. Until they start using something like optical sensors or smarter hexaphonic pickups, were are stuck with the downsides. I can only suggest doing everything you can to minimse the effect - heavier strings, adjust your technique, and eliminating all noises and vibrations in the setup. 

[MiroslavKloud]

This is a detailed analysis. Does not offer however (as well as psarkissian) answer to the question, why the string A5 is okay?

[snowgoose50]

This is a good question Miroslav. I suspect it's that the E6 is more susceptible to pick noise due to the coarseness of the windings as I mentioned before. It may well be that the firmware is correcting the noise better on the A5. Certainly when I play my guitar unamplified, there is more pick noise on the E6.

I know you have done a lot of debugging already. Is the noise invariant or does its amplitude change as you play (i.e. is it embedded in the modelling or does it depend on your technique)? Can you do anything to make the noise worse?

[snowgoose50]

Sorry I just realised that Clay-man has already mentioned that it does vary with technique. 

Apart from the thickness of the windings and perhaps the pick angle, it's hard to see why there should be any inherent difference between the A5 and E6

[psarkissian]

Pick scrape on wound strings,....

Stiff picks tend to ping and over ring,

soft picks tend to thwack,

medium picks tend to be in between,

and finger nail pick scrape is cringy.

I mentioned that some where here or on another post.

 

Firmware won't solve pick scrape.

Making use of Workbench HD and the equaliser on the

floor effects unit to sculpt the sound. Using the tools.

[MiroslavKloud]

snowgoose50,

yes, pick type and technique have influence, but negligible.

 

psarkissian,

the best solution - throw away picks and use EBow.

[clay-man]

I always thought it was the piezos because of how the problem gets better and worse between switching piezos when I had my Variax 600.

 

I don't get why people installing the same exact firmware would make people hear different variations of the pinging noise, it doesn't make sense.

Physical hardware inconsistencies seems like the most logical explanation.

[Charlie_Watt]

It's got to be hardware.  We are all running the same FW (or versions of it)  Piezos are going to pick up any weird vibrations that are present. 

[MiroslavKloud]

https://youtu.be/lHm3Tj-pa8I

[MiroslavKloud]

As for the the Model itself is from a vintage 59 Strat. I've had this talk with the programmer. Yes, it's going to have a bit more something about it that unfortunately Miroslav doesn't like. Popular with blues players, but not with metal players (seems to be the pattern). So yes, that particular Strat is supposed to have that kind of Low-E sound. Apparently it doesn't mix well with how Miroslav is using it.

 

[snhirsch]

Looks like the notches in the amplitude response of the DSP for E6 do not align very well with peaks in the string output.  I'm curious how you made those measurements.  With the extremely high source impedance of the piezo pickup there are a lot of ways to have the test setup cause issues of its own.  Can you describe exactly how those measurements were done?

[snowgoose50]

Good work Miroslav. I think you've demonstrated that the Strat model is particularly sensitive to that noise.

 

On a more general note, I don't see why Line 6 slavishly model every aspect of a guitar including its faults. It would be nice to replace that sound with that of a hardtail strat a la Clapton. 

[cruisinon2]

On a more general note, I don't see why Line 6 slavishly model every aspect of a guitar including its faults. It would be nice to replace that sound with that of a hardtail strat a la Clapton.

The Strat model in the latest firmware is great if you want nothing but that one specific Texas blues clang...if you're after anything else, it's not gonna help you. They seem to have modeled a guitar with rather anemic pickups...I find it difficult to get a decent tone without substantially increasing the gain on the amp, almost to the point of silliness. So even in the absence of horrible digital artifacts, the Strat model is of no use to me.

 

Fortunately, there's Workbench. You can get pretty damn close to the Strat model in the older firmware versions by experimenting with different body/pickup combinations...save yourself a custom model, and it's off to the races.

[psarkissian]

Modeled from a vintage (not a re-issue) 1959 Strat.

 

Yeah, Clapton, Beck or Trower. There's always making use of

equalisers and/or Workbench HD to sculpt it further to get that.

 

Presets are a starting point, not an end to itself.

[MiroslavKloud]

snhirsch,

I used POD HD500 - input impedance 3.5 Mohm. I see no problem in this. More problematic is the measurement of the frequency characteristics of electronics. Frequency response is changing (I assume) depending on played tone. This can not work when using noise. However, the measurement result corresponds to how the defect manifested.

 

snowgoose50

"On a more general note, I don't see why Line 6 slavishly model every aspect of a guitar including its faults."

It is not modeled. This is a fault of JTV.

In the video I try to prove that the longitudinal wave is an integral part of sound at every guitars (anyone can verify). Magnetic pickups do not have the problem usually - on my JTV the L-Wave is very loud on the string A5 and therefore magnetic pickup captures this.

 

If someone says:

"that particular Strat is supposed to have that kind of Low-E sound."

So it is a mistake or a deliberate lie.

[snhirsch]

You have what you claim to be the raw pickup spectral response.  How did you measure that without disconnecting the pickups from the internal electronics or probing where they attach?  Ditto for the DSP electronics.  To measure that would require that you feed a reference signal into the input of the DSP board.

[psarkissian]

"I used POD HD500 - input impedance 3.5 Mohm"----

 

snhirsch,... and to add to that, I have found the 3.5 Meg-Ohm input impedance

to be one of the settings with a higher noise floor. Think I've mentioned that in an

earlier response here or in another thread post.

 

snhirsch,... as for the DSP, he would  need a schematic or a chip data sheet. And

even then there would be too many external component variables and voltage pull

down points to be as accurate as would be needed,... would be approximation at best.

Interesting, but it doesn't solve his problem, made more complicating by the methodology

of the way the experiment is being implemented.

 

snhirsch, et al,...Signals would have to be picked off from input and output amps and

compared. Problem with that is that per-processed input and post processed output are

different, so you'd be comparing apples with oranges (as the saying goes). Good idea,

but how valid the methodology of the experiment is,... well, not bad considering the tools

used, but not quite there, yet. Need better tools and inside knowledge of the algorithm

and workings and a schematic, for it to be where these experiments could be. It's a nice

start, nice effort though.

[snhirsch]

Wow, this is really veering off course.

 

1.

 

To measure the piezo pickup response to a plucked string, one would need to probe the point at which the pickup connects to the DSP board (doesn't require schematic or chip data sheets, just common sense) with a measurement system having a very high input impedance.  This will let you see what the input preamps and AD converter is working with.   I would think that anything with a 1M input impedance or higher is fine for this purpose.  More specifically, I doubt that any PC sound card or built-in audio port on a computer has a sufficiently high Z to avoid skewing what you are trying to measure due to additonal loading effects.

 

2.

 

Measuring the transfer function of the DSP board alone is a whole lot more complicated due to the large amount of signal conditioning and convolution being performed on it.  That said, a comparison between the raw string output (see point 1) and the guitar DSP output for the same sample would be intriguing. 

 

Any approach for point 1 that does not sample the pickup directly is simply not telling you anything about the pickup itself.  You cannot "back" into the pickup characteristics based on any downstream outputs.

 

Lastly, discussion of the POD HD input impedance is, again, completely unrelated to any point I was trying to make.

[MiroslavKloud]

snhirsch, totally agree.

1. Electronics was disconnected, piezo directly into the POD (3.5 Mohm). POD was used only as USB sound card. No audio processing.

2. The reference signal was of course connected to the input for piezo (piezo unconnected). But I wrote previously, this measurement is not objective.

 

psarkissian,

"I have found the 3.5 Meg-Ohm input impedance to be one of the settings with a higher noise floor" - totally irrelevant

"...as for the DSP, he would  need a schematic or a chip data sheet. And

even then there would be too many..." - You should know that it is nonsense to connect or measure anything after AD converter. I do not need schema for connecting the signal to analog input.

 

The important thing is this: at the string E6 is heard "clank tone" G # - 1660Hz. The measured value corresponds exactly to this. The origin of this sound is thus clarified.

[Rocco_Crocco]

Miroslav, I apologize if I asked this already, but have you tried filing the piezo casing? It totally fixed my problem. 

 

I think the cause (at least on my guitar) was that when I palm-muted E6, the string was pressed into the piezo casing by my hand, thus causing the plinking. After filing the plink is gone... poof... like a puff of smoke.

[onkelfeix]

Hi all!

Got my guitar back today - as expected no errors were found. 

So I plugged it back into my amp, and voilá my favourite pling noise is still there.

Looks like my guitar could be back to the retailer in a couple of days for demonstration, this time I'll take my amp and cable to show them what's going on.

 

But before that happens I still want to sort things out.

Made some tests today on my amp (Fender Mustang v2) and on my PC with a DAW software and BiasFX as VST plugin.

It made no difference , in both setups the "plinging" sound is very audible. 

 

Some pages and posts before I think I was reading something about "pick scraping". 

So I did exactly this , I palm muted the string and just scraped the string with my pick longitudinal - and got exactly the noise I hear with regular palm muted playing. 

That could lead to the conclusion that the piezos are so microphonic that they just pick up this sound. 

Maybe we don't hear this sound on the A5 string because the pick doesn't get so far between the string wounds - the A5 string is less in diameter, has around 1kg more tension and the space between each wounds could be smaller as well, maybe this difference is big enough for the pickup to react so completely different.

 

This all will lead me into a final test:

I'll order some D'Addario ECG23 Chromes Flatwound 10-48 strings. My dad has those on his Ibanez. I'm not a huge fan of those strings, especially when it comes to slides when you don't have bone dry fingers. Also I don't really like the sound when it comes to the magnetic pickups (could be the pickups of my dad's guitar ; but D'Addario says those strings have a more mellow tone). Don't know if this even has effects on the piezos though.

 

If I order them today I might get them tomorrow , to keep your fingers crossed and wish me luck that this works-

 

kind regards

Alex

[MiroslavKloud]

Rocco Crocco,

thanks, but the gap between the string and the casing is large. No mechanical contact.

If you look at my video, you will hear that the problem is not just palm muting.

 

Alex,

welcome to the Club.