guix Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Hi Helixists Being already aware of this post which contradicts the manual on the 1/4" outs What is the official info on Helix's Outputs? XLRs: This ones clearly Balanced! Mic or Line Level switchable, but when in Line level -10dBV or + 4dBU? 1/4": Manual says unbalanced... but are they really? Again confusion comes from the aforementioned post. Instrument or line Switchable , but when in Line level -10dBV or + 4dBU? Sends: Same as 1/4" Would be sooo nice for the manual to be clear on this. :- ) Guix the Helixist standing by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmalle Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 I agree, the manual should be more clear on the technical stuff. Maybe that's by design to have wiggle room for 'silent' improvements. The 1/4" Outs are balanced. When the Helix outputs are set to line level, they are +4dBU nominal with approximately 15dB of headroom. Source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmalle Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 On 2/4/2024 at 3:56 AM, MGW-Alberta said: So who is "Guest"? "Line 6 Will". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guix Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 @Line6Tony:Can you guys please update the info in the Manual? :- ) Thanks Schmalle! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datacommando Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 On 2/5/2024 at 8:19 AM, guix said: @Line6Tony:Can you guys please update the info in the Manual? :- ) Thanks Schmalle! Hi, IIRC, the Owner’s Manual is only updated on major revisions of the Firmware. For example: Helix 2.0 Owner’s Manual and Helix 3.0 Owner’s Manual. This has been mentioned previously, with reasons given, by Digital_Igloo (Eric Klein) who is the guy who writes the manuals. That’s why you don’t see any mention of the Dynamic Reverbs and new Line 6 amp models etc., listed in the manual. Also, this is a user group, there are no Line 6 staff here and only very occasionally do they visit these forums - (See the “sticky comment” in the black banner stripe at the top of this page entitled “Welcome to the Line 6 forums”). This link is where you need to go to have any hope of your suggestion been seen by anyone from Line 6: https://line6.ideascale.com/c/ Before posting any new ideas, please do a search to see if it's already been listed. Multiple requests for the same thing will thin out the votes. Also, post your ideas one at a time. Many users don’t vote for combined suggestions. Then you should use the “sticky thread” in this forum to let other users know what your suggestions are, with links to IdeaScale, so they can vote on it if they wish. Hope this helps/makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guix Posted February 5 Author Share Posted February 5 But you do realise that being balanced outputs has nothing to do with the firmware right? It comes from day 1! This is not a feature request at all :- ) Here is to Helix 4.0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guix Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 OK So I dig a bit deeper and @Schmalle NO those Outputs are NOT Balanced! The connectors are TRS and the line level might be +4 (which I don't exactly know how to test) but the connectors are connected in an unbalanced way. You can see they are TRS connectors cause you feel two clicks when putting a jack in whereas a TS connector you only feel one. Hence the manual saying use TS cables. TRS Connectors but the ring is not connected! I confirmed using some headphones connected to the output. On a balanced connected output you hear music in both ears (slightly delayed in one ear because of the out of phase of the signal) In the helix both the 1/4" and aux sends only sound from one side of the headphones. THIS POST IS WRONG! x- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmalle Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 On 2/9/2024 at 11:11 AM, guix said: OK So I dig a bit deeper and @Schmalle NO those Outputs are NOT Balanced! [...] The outs are impedance balanced. This means the signal is only on the tip pin. It still has the advantages of a balanced signal transmission (noise rejection and the possibility of ground lift). https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-impedance-balancing-audio-different-normal-balancing 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datacommando Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 On 2/5/2024 at 4:43 PM, guix said: But you do realise that being balanced outputs has nothing to do with the firmware right? Hi, I have just re-read your original post and I really cannot comprehend why you have a problem with this? If you connect you Helix to “whatever” final output device, or monitoring system, does it work? Is this causing and audible issue, because if it is, you haven’t said how anyone else maybe able to reproduce this? Suffice to say AFAIK: +4db = Professional Line Level Standardised Equipment. -10db = Consumer Line Level Standardised Equipment. Have you considered that using a TRS jack would switch the auto impedance to use the balanced option and a TS would be unbalanced. Hope this helps/makes sense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guix Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 I see... but that means they are not TRS! and the post says TRS... for impedance balance there is no 3rd cable a TRS cable doesn't make any difference to a TS right? Why else would the manual ask for TS cables for 1/4" Out? Its getting interestinger and interestinger :- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guix Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 On 2/9/2024 at 12:59 PM, datacommando said: Hi, I have just re-read your original post and I really cannot comprehend why you have a problem with this? If you connect you Helix to “whatever” final output device, or monitoring system, does it work? Is this causing and audible issue, because if it is, you haven’t said how anyone else maybe able to reproduce this? Suffice to say AFAIK: +4db = Professional Line Level Standardised Equipment. -10db = Consumer Line Level Standardised Equipment. Have you considered that using a TRS jack would switch the auto impedance to use the balanced option and a TS would be unbalanced. Hope this helps/makes sense. My issue is I need a long cable run from 1/4" helix. And I am using the XLRs for a different sound (yes I have 2 singers and 2 guitars thorugh 1 single helix!) The easiest way to do is using a balanced cable but that can only be achieved if both ends support balanced signals. So knowing if the out is balanced or unbalanced is crucial. Impedance balanced is really just an unbalanced way to connect albeit better than pure unbalanced . In this case I will need to balance the out with a line level passive DI or similar as I want the outs to be line level not mic level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerS Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 Well, in the article you refer>> to it’s stated “Impedance-balanced TRS”. That means it’s not unbalanced, it’s “pseudo balance” technique used and behaves similar to and in most cases equivalent to a full balanced output. I don’t dare to explain it technical in case your needs depend on it… Here are two, one in depth and one “more balanced”. • https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/q-how-impedance-balancing-audio-different-normal-balancing • https://faq.yamaha.com/sg/s/article/000021463 If you search for “impedance balanced vs balanced” you get a picture of how it works and check that to your use case. //Per 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmalle Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 On 2/9/2024 at 2:24 PM, guix said: I see... but that means they are not TRS! and the post says TRS... for impedance balance there is no 3rd cable a TRS cable doesn't make any difference to a TS right? Why else would the manual ask for TS cables for 1/4" Out? Its getting interestinger and interestinger :- ) You can use an impedance balanced TRS out with either TS or TRS cables. If the device you're connecting it with has a balanced input (e.g. mixer) then a TS cable works but a TRS cable is preferable as it gives you the noise suppression and optional ground lift (by taking advantage of the third/ring lead). If the device you're connecting it with has a unbalanced input (e.g. amp) then both TS and TRS cables do the same work (TRS cable works but has no advantage because the third/ring lead is connected to ground /deactivated). 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
datacommando Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/9/2024 at 1:31 PM, guix said: My issue is I need a long cable run from 1/4" helix. And I am using the XLRs for a different sound (yes I have 2 singers and 2 guitars thorugh 1 single helix!) The easiest way to do is using a balanced cable but that can only be achieved if both ends support balanced signals. So knowing if the out is balanced or unbalanced is crucial. Impedance balanced is really just an unbalanced way to connect albeit better than pure unbalanced . In this case I will need to balance the out with a line level passive DI or similar as I want the outs to be line level not mic level. Hi, You still haven’t said how this is actually causing a problem with your 4 channel Helix setup, other than you have long cable runs from the 1/4” outs. Is your audio suffering from interference/hum? Unless you to have incredibly long leads going over/near lots of cables/devices that are electrically noisy then there’s no point in worrying about this. Plus, if you really do need to have the 1/4” jacks supply a balanced out to your mixer, simply stick a DI box on there to convert the jacks to XLR. These are very cheap and do the job. Here is a very simple solution: https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0176 Hope this helps makes sense. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guix Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2024 at 12:13 AM, datacommando said: Hi, You still haven’t said how this is actually causing a problem with your 4 channel Helix setup, other than you have long cable runs from the 1/4” outs. Is your audio suffering from interference/hum? Unless you to have incredibly long leads going over/near lots of cables/devices that are electrically noisy then there’s no point in worrying about this. Plus, if you really do need to have the 1/4” jacks supply a balanced out to your mixer, simply stick a DI box on there to convert the jacks to XLR. These are very cheap and do the job. Here is a very simple solution: https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0176 Hope this helps makes sense. Yes I dont want interference/hum as We have a lot of gear on stage and we play small venues.. means a lot of powerlines around, and we record every gig and publish it so i want good sounds. And yeap that's what Ill do but not with the DI20 but a passive DI that doesn't change the level of the signal like this https://www.thomann.de/gb/neutrik_na2mjtx.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schmalle Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 On 2/10/2024 at 7:56 AM, guix said: Yes I dont want interference/hum as We have a lot of gear on stage and we play small venues.. means a lot of powerlines around, and we record every gig and publish it so i want good sounds. And yeap that's what Ill do but not with the DI20 but a passive DI that doesn't change the level of the signal like this https://www.thomann.de/gb/neutrik_na2mjtx.htm I bought four short TRS male -> XLR male cables as adapters to connect to XLR cables leading to PA. On two of them I opened up the TRS plug and cut the ground. I marked these as "GND lift". Works, no complaints. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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