Logidy C.01 Impulse Response w/ PODHD

[joel_brown]

I ordered the Logidy C.01 Impulse Response box.  This gives me the ability to use IRs, including user installable IRs, with the PODHD.

 

My rig is a PODHD into the effect return of a pair of Marshall JCM900s in stereo.  I play in a Black Sabbath Tribute band so hi-gain is the most important thing to me.

 

After tweaking with the Logidy for about an hour, using it instead of the PODHD cab, I can't say it's worth it yet.  Although the tone was very good, it wasn't much better, if any, than the preset I built for myself - after months of tweaking.  Not a fair comparison yet.

 

I'm going to try some user installable IRs and see how that goes.  I've read that the built in IRs that come with the Logidy are not that good but it really comes alive when installing other IRs.

 

This is a heck of a deal for this box.  Stereo IRs for $200 and you can install your own.

[joel_brown]

Downloaded a few thousand impulse responses for free.  The first one I put into the Logidy was better, but not a lot.  Just 1,999 more IRs to try.  But atleast now I have virtually unlimited cabs and mics plus the Logidy has tone controls which are fairly useful. 

 

I'm thinking the Logidy may be more useful for people using solid state amps or going direct into a sound system.  Or for people who use IRs for recording but would like to take the same sound with them when they play live.

[radatats]

thanks for sharing your experience.  Judging from all the previous talk you would have expected the earth to move with new IR's but apparently the Line 6 cabs aren't so bad after all...

[gunpointmetal]

So are you using impulses through your marshalls? or you're saying you want a DI solution without your amps and the IRs are not passing the test? If you've been using the POD's cabs in stack/combo return mode through your amps, then I'm sure those IR's do sound no better then the stock cabs....The IRs you load in the Lodigy are pretty much meant for DI situations only, so you're basically running a full speaker sim into a real guitar speaker, which would (and should) probably sound like total lollipop, actually. 

 

What you could do if you're using amp patches is put the lodigy on the headphone out or split the 1/4" outs and send your normal signal to your amps and the IR signal to the FOH.

[joel_brown]

I've been using the PODHD with Studio Out into the FX return of the Marshall amps with cabs and using the PODHD PreAmp and Cab - which sounds very nice for hi gain.  I'm now using the Logidy in place of the PODHD cab.

 

A full speaker sim into a full speaker sounds very nice, atleast in my situation.  We all have speakers at some point.  Just some have different characteristics.

[joel_brown]

After trying a bunch of user installable IRs and tweaking lots of settings, I sent an email to Logidy asking if I could return the unit.  Yes it made differences in tone but it was far from being a big improvement over what comes built into the PODHD, atleast in my configuration. 

[stumblinman]

I use the blackbacks almost exclusively. They have the EQ that fits me the best regardless of amp model. Just starts my tone off on the right foot I guess.

[gunpointmetal]

I'm not trying to be an lollipop, but you're basically using it wrong and you set yourself up for failure. Its surprising that you can get a decent sound with a cab model into a guitar cab in studio direct mode and would venture that you're amp model's EQ is all sorts of screwy to compensate for it. I guess at the end of the day, if it works for you, its working, and if it doesn't it's not. I've only heard awesome DI recording clips of the Lodigy with impulses, as thats its intended use (well, reverb was its intended use, but yay for firmware updates!)

[DeanDinosaur]

Only If I had a penny for every time I said this! POD HD isn't intended to be used with external IRS. The LINE 6 cab is not Just an IR because line 6 intentionally designed it  that way. I'm not a programmer, but I've tried external IRs with HD and it's a waste of time. when and if Line 6, will ever disclose this trivial information for those who care about external IRs , I would consider. When replacing the Line 6 cab with an external IRs, more things are lost and the Line6 Cab sounds more detailed not because Line 6 IRs are better, but simply because  you're trying to replace the Line 6 Amp block (that includes more than just an IR) with a mere IR. IMHO line 6 are "Not playing nice at all"  for not disclosing this, but instead they leave those interested in IRs in the Dark, Just come out and tell everyone to stop trying to replace the "Cab" with and IR.  

 

I personally think, it's overkill to go through hundreds of IRs, but it's a major turn off for me the way line 6 handles this for those customers who care  about IRs. Do you think they will read this board and respond to anyone here? I think not. You have a much better chance getting better response from line 6 in the  gear page forum rather than the company's own website. The design is most likely intended so that similar conclusions are drawn as the the one the OP concluded. 

 

I have no doubt that the  Logidy will give much better results, if the HD really allowed the replacement of just the  IR and not the whole CAB. Lodigy can play much higher resolutions IRs than HD or probably even the AXE FX 2. Does anyone even know the resolution of the IR used in the HD? It's probably good enough for a multipurpose effect processor and is probably also limited so it doesn't consume precious DSP power. I would be willing to bet that if you only could replace the IR only, you would very likely experience massive improvement with the LOGIDY or any other impulse player where you can use higher resolutions IRs enough that no one will ever use the internal line 6 IRs (lower resolution) that line 6 might be compelled to update to allow higher resolutions IR if that's even possible with the limited DSP power reserved for playing IRs (you didn't think you can play 8 effects simultaneously- in theory- without compromises, did you?  ;)  )

[aussiejoe]

I have recently started experimenting with IR files in my HD500x

Ive tried both Redwirez MixIR2 and Two notes WOS IR loaders running thru Reaper

 

IMHO - The first thing I found is that when I connect the POD to the PC and use the POD driver in Reaper, then load up an IR file and turn off the POD cabs/mics there seems to be very little difference in sound between having the cabs on and off. I was not expecting this result.

 

I also have an external audio interface (IK Stealthpedal). I found that if I run the POD 1/4 outs into the Stealthpedal inputs (with monitors attached to the Stealthpedal outputs) and use the Stealthpedal drivers in Reaper the difference between the POD cabs and the IR cabs is very noticeable. The IR files sound much better to my ears and remove much of the high end fizz that I hear from time to time from the POD.

 

Its as if because the POD is not a VST plugin that the IR loader doesn't get recognised by the POD driver software. This could be the reason why some folks dont hear a substantial difference.

 

Anyway, Im happy to experiment with IR files  - Im a tweeker at heart!

cheers

[joel_brown]

gunpointmetal, my configuration is the only one I've found that sounds good for me.  I've done the 4cm, stack combo, and all the rest of the settings.  I'm surprised that you're surprised it works like this.

[gunpointmetal]

I know in my experience putting a cab model into a guitar cab = mud, no harmonics, lots of low end build-up. Like I said, whatever works for you, tone is subjective! I have also heard tons, and tons of high gain guitar recordings with IR's instead of stock cabs using the HD and very few of them sound worse then the stock cabs, most sound exponentially better.

[joel_brown]

Well the Logidy with custom IRs didn't sound worse by any means.  It just wasn't much if any better than what I had already in the PODHD.  I wish it had been a nice improvement, and it may be a lot better in a different configuration.

[DeanDinosaur]

There are high resolution IRs that should sound significantly more detailed, but since POD HD series doesn't support external IRs, it's just a waste of time. NO where in the specs does any POD HD state that it supports external IRs, and that's intentional. 

[gunpointmetal]

There are high resolution IRs that should sound significantly more detailed, but since POD HD series doesn't support external IRs, it's just a waste of time. NO where in the specs does any POD HD state that it supports external IRs, and that's intentional. 

Huh? The OP has an external IR loading pedal, so what does the HD-series not supporting them have to do with anything? 

May not be your thing, but there are some amazing tones to be heard from the HD (and X3 on older stuff) with IRs in the context of heavy music from a solo artist by the name of Fortiori on youtube/bandcamp/facebook. I'd link it, but I can't at work for some reason.

[DeanDinosaur]

Huh? The OP has an external IR loading pedal, so what does the HD-series not supporting them have to do with anything?

May not be your thing, but there are some amazing tones to be heard from the HD (and X3 on older stuff) with IRs in the context of heavy music from a solo artist by the name of Fortiori on youtube/bandcamp/facebook. I'd link it, but I can't at work for some reason.

You're missing my point. What I'm saying is that if the HD truly supports external IRs, he would have gotten amazing results, but once you load an external IR and disable the CAB, you also disable other programming that went into the CAB. It's clear that LINE 6 doesn't want anyone to get good results with EXTERNAL IRS, otherwise they would have officially supported it by separating the IR from the other components of what they call CAB.

[gunpointmetal]

If you leave a full model, set it to no cabinet, and output the sound to something like the Lodigy you are "losing" the cab DEP parameters/AIR and mic placement adjustments, but you IR file already contains those elements, they are just fixed. That's why people will audition dozens of IRs to find one they like. Some of the better paid-for IRs are actually created with the power section of tube guitar amps, which adds another tonality. I seriously doubt L6 had any intent to make it difficult for people to use IR files with their processors, they just didn't go out of their way to make easy. 

 

Like I said before, tone is totally subjective, and whatever it takes to get you to what you want to hear is "right". However, running a cab model into a guitar cab, to me, is a big no-no (especially in Studio Out mode?!?) and I'm not surprised that the OP wasn't able to make it sound good through guitar cabs. Try it in the effects loop right after an amp with no cab on into an FRFR or recording system and see how it sounds......

[joel_brown]

Can't say this is a big no-no since myself and others have been doing this for years with Roland, Line6 and AXE equipment.  It's the only way I've found to get the dynamic tone I want without sounding digitally artificial.  Not saying there isn't other ways that work very well, but a far cry from a big no-no.  Also I only play live, no recording going on here other than live recordings.  That could be a reason that the external IRs didn't do much for me.

 

The biggest reason I frequent this forum is to read about different ways people have configured their equipment so I can try it myself.  What I have configured works the best for me doing the type of music I do. 

 

Actually I'm surprised that more people aren't playing live in stereo.  One of the venues I play at finally told me they are getting quite a few National acts doing this now.  It makes a big difference if setup properly.

[dbagchee]

I agree with gunpointmetal.

 

Let me preface it by saying there is no wrong way to set stuff up, if you get the sound that you like then there's no reason to set it up another way.

 

That said, I do think there are several ways that Line 6 intended certain settings to be used. I've used my Line 6 gear live almost exclusively, and have probably tried every combination of settings and I've found the following to be true for me:

1. If I'm running into a regular guitar cabinet through a power amp there are two options:
   1. Disable cabs (this sounds best to me)
   2. Stack Poweramp output mode and use cabs (mic models don't do anything in this mode)
2. If I'm running into a full range speaker (PA) or direct recording:
   1. Studio output mode with cabs (mic models in play)
   2. Studio output mode with cabs off + IR

I'd only use the IR pedal for option 2.2 personally, I think that generally is the intended use of an IR of a miked cab.

 

As far as a sound sample of using IRs with the Pod, someone I follow on Soundcloud (skyprocliamsit) has a few good demos comparing the difference - this one is a particularly good example:

 

https://soundcloud.com/skyproclaimsit/pod-hd-uberkab-vs-redwirez

[DeanDinosaur]

That statement is half true. there are definitely other things you're losing. I'm sure there are few other things you loose such as those  that have to  to do with speaker impedance and how tube amp reacts to that,  and other things that I'm not aware of, as I'm not a tube amp engineer, so until line 6 come out and say what's lost, presuming the obvious parameters are the only thing lost is not a safe bet by any means. To my ears there are definitely more things lost. I can see though, how these things might not be crucial to getting a high gain sound that's pretty good if finger response and dynamic range is not a concern.

If you leave a full model, set it to no cabinet, and output the sound to something like the Lodigy you are "losing" the cab DEP parameters/AIR and mic placement adjustments, but you IR file already contains those elements, they are just fixed....

[aussiejoe]

check out the Two Notes Wall of Sound IR loader plug in

 

http://www.two-notes.com/en/software/torpedo-wall-of-sound-3/

 

allows for power amp on/off (can be used with POD full or Pre amps) with power amp tube choices/eq functions

a variety of proprietary cab IR's or load 3rd party IRs

a variety of mics and allows mic placement positional changes

post cab eq functions, stacking of cabs etc etc

 

Its free to try for 30 days

Once you get familiar with the interface its easy to use

Ive been using it for the last week or so, and to me its made a huge difference to my HD500X

 

there is also a Torpedo CAB pedal for live use with much the same funtionality

 

not spruikin, just saying,

might help someone out

cheers

[gunpointmetal]

Most IR's I've tested with have just as good "feel" response, the biggest problem with that though is that if you don't have a dedicated pedal the latency through the computer can be distracting.

 

DeanDinosaur, I'm pretty sure you would argue with a stop sign if you felt like it had something bad to say about Line 6, and your theory that you're losing more than the Cab parameters is as much speculation as my theory about that being all you lose. 

 

To my ear, IMHO, most good IR files sound just as good, and mostly better than the stock cabs. If you need to chain three preamps end to end with four different cab simulations into a 2x18 PA subwoofer to get tone you're after, do it. The OP had an observation/issue about using IR's in his situation, and common knowledge would suggest that there might be some signal chain things to think about before saying the IRs aren't good. If Impulse Response technology was not as good as L6 modeled cabs, why wouldn't the Top of the Line stuff (Fractal/Kemper) use similar modeling, and why would so many Digitech Users use unsupported firmware just for the ability to load user IRs, albeit really short, ones, that still sound better than the original modeled cabs in most instances I've heard?

[stumblinman]

The IR on the sample clip sounded brighter, just use the amp EQ. What a bunch of snake oil.

[DeanDinosaur]

How did you know :)  , I did argue with a stop sign the other day and she seemed to have more sense than some people.

Mine is  not just a theory when you consider that a product like AXE FX that officially supports external IRs that many of its users favorite IRs are not the internal IRs provided by Fractal audio. I realize line 6 doesn't allow loading the IRs in the actual unit, but now that there are products with low latency like Torpedo and Logidy why doesn't someone from line 6 come out and say that the HD is compatible with these devices??

 

If you can't hear what's lost, you're in the minority because most who used the HD with external IRs never notice significant improvements and quite to the contrary people notice quality degradation with external IRs when using the HD at it's current status. The subject of this thread confirms my findings and not yours.

 

In case you're not aware, line 6 never disclosed that they use IRs even though we all know they do. the word is that they use a combination of IRs and other secret sauce, how do you separate the sauce from the Ir?? By disabling the entire Cab? I don't think so.

 

 

DeanDinosaur, I'm pretty sure you would argue with a stop sign if you felt like it had something bad to say about Line 6, and your theory that you're losing more than the Cab parameters is as much speculation as my theory about that being all you lose. 

[gunpointmetal]

It is just a theory, sir, until you've got that confirmation from Line 6, and good luck with that. It only took three years of bitching to get an OFFICIAL L6 team member to let me know about the EQ situation...(on a different forum, via PM, go figure). 

 

Line 6 doesn't come out and say anything, ever. And when they do, its basically by force. What would be their motivation for telling users that there are products from other companies that work well with their products? Why would they suggest using an external pedal for cab simulations when they are marketing HD amp models (I'm assuming this includes the cabs in the umbrella of amp models). That's like Microsoft suggesting an Apple product as a peripheral to a PC...even if it worked "better" then the PC offering, they're not gonna tell you that!

[DeanDinosaur]

I use External IRs with Revalver that officially supports it, also with Eleven Rack that doesn't officially support, but the massive improvement is in both software/Devices is very hard to miss when using external IRs, but it never worked for me with the HD500 and I honestly gave up on line 6 ever supporting this feature. My next purchase will be revalver 4 that should be coming out somewhat soon. I think it will offer high resolution impulses.

 

I actually heard some clips that show the difference of the same high resolution file, played as high resolution and then played truncated lower resolution.  The additional detail in the high resolution is impossible tomiss. Based on sound quality, I'm almost certain that Revalver 4, will be best PODHD, Eleven and will actually be close to AXE FX II.

[bjnette]

I gotta say I am a Revalver fan but the POD HD 500 works better for home and the office.

I have tweaked with impulse responses in Revalver.

There is a whole sub culture using freeware amp plugs and IR players. Fine if you only want to play in the studio.

 

 

Revalver4 sounds promising. 

That would mean running a laptop at a gig and use the HD500 as a midi controller. Nah. 

 

I'll just continue with the HD500 but I am pluging mine into my amp for gigs and mic'ing it to get some air moving in the studio.

 

I totally recommend trying the "Conbo Front" and lower the focus and the high self by heaps you can get rid of some fizz. WARNING: It is not as loud as Studio Direct and you will have to increase the gain on your master out to compare the tonalty. 

 

I will also try IRs in the studio and see if I can get some variety in case I am missing out on something.

[DeanDinosaur]

For live use, the HD500 and  DT amp is probably the best solution out there; definitely better than Both Kemper and AXEFX. According to Cliff Chase the designer of the AXE FX, tone is 80% from the speaker. A real Amp with real guitar speaker is untouchable for live use in regard to sound quality, add the flexibility of the POD floor effects and Preamps and you have everything under the sun and more!

[joel_brown]

And this is why I use real Marshall amps and cabs when I play live....  and probably why in my configuration I didn't notice much of a difference with external IRs.  Probably works great in a studio or FRFR setup. 

 

Logidy, for the price, is an incredible deal.  Stereo external IRs for $200.  Torpedo is $500 for mono, last I looked.

[joel_brown]

As an ending to this thread.  I returned my Logidy unit and received a full refund. 

 

Logidy was great to deal with.  The unit worked exactly as described, but when it didn't meet my expectations with the PODHD and I asked to return it, they didn't hesitate a bit.

 

If external IRs is what you're looking for then I recommend looking at Logidy. 

 

Unfortunately external IRs in my configuration didn't give me much of a tone improvement.

[billlorentzen]

I wonder if IRs of a nice acoustic could be used with my Ovation's under-saddle pickup to sound closer to a real guitar?

[TheRealZap]

Logidy:

 

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=18089627&postcount=110

 

"To the Pod HD users out there considering augmenting their sound with an EPSi I would like to share our end of the story. We are seeing the most returns of EPSis precisely from POD owners who have little experience using IR based detached cab simulators. Here is what we find:

- The cab sim in the POD is already based on some sort of convolution and is much more accurate than the web chatter would imply.

- The improvement brought by adding the EPSi is subtle. Although critical to some ears, it is lost on many others.

We find that folks who have experimented with native IR based cab sims on their computers have the best understanding of what to expect from the product. Folks who have not, tend to expect too much from the concept and be disappointed when trying it in the real world.

Making version C for EPSi was entirely motivated by requests from users familiar with the process and those users were quite satisfied with the results. Somehow the buzz now is that this process will turn any high end modeler into something massively better, but we've seen a number of users reporting insufficient improvement upon pairing the EPSi with their high end modeler and requesting returns as a result.

A quick way to evaluate the benefits of adding the EPSi to a given rig is to pair that rig with one of the many available computer IR based cab sims. All these plug ins use convolution as does the EPSi.â€

[joel_brown]

Confirms what I found out when I bought the Logidy, and then returned it.  Guess I'm not the only one.  Thanks TheRealZap for posting this.  The Logidy is a great product.  It provides stereo user installable IRs for $200 and only adds 1ms of latency.  It just didn't give me much of an improvement for live use with my rig to be worth doing.  Maybe an FRFR system would see a bigger improvement.

[aussiejoe]

As was pointed out in the same Gearpage post, the Logidy type stuff is just the tool - its the most appropriate IR for your purpose that's the determining factor.

 

Find some IR's that work for you and you will be very happy with whatever you use.

[joel_brown]

I tried hundreds of IRs and there are zillions to choose from.  If I had seen enough of an improvement to keep going I would have.

[jandrio]

...Maybe an FRFR system would see a bigger improvement....

 

T R U E !