kronda

Really scary...

Sure, not recordings, but they were trying to achieve the sound of a specific miced amp so they had used specific miced amp sound as a reference. And this reference sound was produced in some specific conditions (perhaps a set of) - mic placement(s), volume(s), room(s)... I'm not absolutely certain describing WHAT sound reference(s) they were after reveals much about HOW they did it. Anyway I expressed explicitly that I don't expect no.1 to materialize for business reasons so not sure what your comment meant...?

Well, night and day IMHO. I'm not standing on the side "digital gear cannot sound good because it doesn't have tubes". I think with correct post-processing, POD HD can sound good, even awesome perhaps (I can improve the sound greatly by EQing and I absolutely don't consider myself a pro). But I don't understand why this processing isn't part of POD HD out of the box, Line 6 pros would be able to beat my processing to dust for sure (different processing would probably be needed for Studio and Live sound which is why I proposed these two output modes could be separated: http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/POD-HD-New-Live-Gig-Output-Mode/688489-23508). The only reasonable explanation I could think of why POD HD sounds the (thin, harsh...) way out of the box is that it is the real raw recorded sound (amp+cab+mic) without any post-processing but these head-to-head samples showing how vastly different (just plain great) the recorded amp sound is simply making me think this cannot be the explanation. So I'm left with business arguments ("this is what customers without real-amp experience buy the most based on quick auditioning") and purely conspirative theories like "guitar amp producers pay Line 6 so that they make POD HD sound like crap by default" (in that case great job Line 6 for making HD such business success :D) I agree that all these comparisons are never really convincing because no one can be sure what post-processing was applied and how the real amp was recorded etc. So I'd love two things: 1) Line 6 (Digital_Igloo) could tell us - is HD a raw recorded sound with no post-processing or what kind of processing is applied, how loud was the amp when recorded/sampled for modelling etc. 2) Live (as in physical) meeting of POD HD users in a room with some amps, cabs, mics and POD HD, recording and tweaking and comparing and hearing for themselves what the results are. I'm especially interested in live gig scenario for which (loud) volume is also critical and that is even harder to do online. I guess no.1 will never happen (no hard feelings here, business is business) and no.2 is geographically complicated given the (great!) global community here. But anyway... anybody up for a tweaking session in Prague? :)

Well, since the FX in HD are M-class which means quite old, I'd guess that's what Line6 could be working on next - new FX models. The question is whether any remodelled "HD" FX would be offered for the current HD hardware or whether that would require a new unit (both from the technical-DSP point of view or a business one). We'll see ;)

I hope for a new FX model pack, something like FX Junkie for XT but given the range that HD has already I'm not sure if there is enough interesting FX within the reach of HD DSP (as I don't expect polyphonic whammy etc.). In terms of amps I probably wouldn't care for more. Anyway I'd rather have multichannel (wet+dry) USB recording and POD HD Farm VST...

I love this thread. Sure, it's a bit chatty and there is some off-topic avocado flying around but it seems that in the end we might get real comparison clips from respected members of the community here which would be fantastic. Just pretty please don't let this fade away. Perhaps start a new clearly labelled thread for that which we'd try to keep avocado-free? Anyway, whenever you're ready... :rolleyes:

I think all the looper functionality can be accessed using MIDI (I'm using MIDI foot controller for controlling the looper). Not sure what you mean by "looper mode" but if you refer to the looper screen on the display then you will get it once you access any looper functionality using MIDI. In other words you can send the MIDI commands controlling the looper functions at any time and this will work, you don't have to switch into "looper mode" first.

Really? That's great, will test it... Thanks a lot.

Another idea which would make my life easier if implemented: http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Restart-internal-clock-by-MIDI-Footswitch/690702-23508 Shouldn't be hard for Line 6 to pull this off over MIDI. The tricky part would perhaps be assigning it to a footswitch (I'm HD Pro guy so not sure but I think Tap Tempo footswitch is hard assigned, right?). I understand if a drummer uses a click and I need to sync to it we should have it synchronized using an external clock but anyway, would be nice. Moreover, I don't think it's possible to control the start of the loop with external clock, or is it? Does anybody have experience with this?

Sounds cool, very usable and efficient in terms of DSP power. Two mics on a single cab with separate flexible EQ for each mic would be perfect but that sounds unreal to me, the history of POD HD updates has not been that encouraging so far. Also separating cab from amp and mic from cab would mean a lot of changes in terms of User Interface ("how to display it on PODs display") which is a big deal IMO. So I won't hold my breath for any of these suggestions. On the other hand voting for your idea will cost me nothing... ;)

Ok, the "mic thing" now. I understand POD is emulating amp+cab+room+mic. I understand the mic changes the sound and may complicate matters to some extent but: 1) I wanted to test this. So I put Shure PG58 (mediocre mic) in front of a solid state amp (mediocre) and ran it out of the same PA in the same room which I'm using for POD HD testing. The sound was still usable at a gig volume level. Sure the character changed a bit, it didn't sound so in your face and heavy but I'm not really picking on this part of the sound. The frequencies were still all there in a usable mixture. Nothing like POD HD. It's not a proof, maybe the mic + amp + placement combination was just right, I don't know. You're talking about recording a guitar so that it sits well in a recorded mix - well, that's actually what I think Line 6 got right - they tweaked the sound (by cutting mids or boosting bass+treble, I'd guess) so that it sits well in a mix being played at a living room volume. When comparing default POD HD sounds with guitars in commercial recordings (using headphones at pretty loud level) I was suprised how similar it sounded and how heavily boosted the high frequencies of guitars are in the recordings. 2) For my POD HD electric guitar tones I'm using only one amp model, one cab model, one mic model, the same combination for all my patches, all with very similar settings (basicaly just varying drive and volume on the amp). It's my favorite combination given it's character in the headphones. It's not a default amp+cab+mic combination at all and it took me a while to perfect the sound in the headphones/studio monitors but I mean like 2 months, very reasonable effort. Then I tweaked the sound at a gig level (for 1.5 years, duh) and now, when I arrived at a decent way to turn my bedroom sounds into live sounds, voila, it basically works for any amp+cab+mic combination when I employ the exact same tweak. Sure, it's not perfect, but all I need then is to tweak amp EQ controls and I'm done, I have a usable live tone. Ok, of course I haven't tried all amp+cab+mic combinations but like 10 of them yes. So I'd say POD HD amp models are pretty "standardized" (so I think they did the dirty work that you, ColonelForbin, are facing when capturing an amp with a mic) but then they are processing them all (as part of the Studio/Direct output mode, supposedly) to get close to the "polished recorded sound" we know from commercial recordings. And yes, I tried the Combo/Poweramp mode running into FX return of an (mediocre) amp and the sound was fantastic. But that's not what I'm discussing here. I refused to drag an amp to every gig when everything I need is in POD so I endured the frustration with HD running into PA, kept tweaking and learning and it seems it's paying off now.

Why is everybody so confident it cannot be done better? I like the sound of almost any guitar+real amp combination at gig volume level. Why is it that I have a huge problem with the default sound of HD through PA? Why can almost all amp makers satisfy my taste (while also pleasing some of the other guitarists) but not Line 6? Perhaps there is a good reason but I don't see it.

1) I don't see why you keep repeating "keep tweaking and you'll find a solution". I did find it. I said several times I am happy now with my tones. I just don't understand why this tweak had to change the default sound so much (and therefore take so much time). 2) Why is the idea that POD HD sounds crap out-of-the-box live through PA at a gig volume a sign of it being a high-end unit? Why should it be hard to get a usable sound out of it? 3) If you're happy with the out-of-the-box sound live through FRFR PA at an ear-piercing volume then congratulations, you and me must be very different people. Seriously, I appreciate your comments explaining you're happy with your sound, makes me think that perhaps Line 6 knew what they were doing with the Studio/Direct mode - as long as there are guitarists appreciating it...

IMO tweaking DEPs/input impedance/adding short delay to solve the thin live sound problem is a misuse and affects negatively your tone in a different way, usually losing definition, weak attack, no metal (as in "iron") character. I followed this road for some time but concluded it was a dead end. DEPs are great to fine-tune your sound to get the tone character you like, not to solve problems.

I like the unit overall. The thing that I point out a possible improvement doesn't mean I want to switch. Rather the opposite - I'd like to contribute to make a good unit even better. I've been a huge Line 6 fan for a long time, have two PODs, two Variaxes. It may be my mistake (not explaining myself properly) but all the suggestions of the "use something else, dude" kind are missing my point. And just for the record, all the comments of the "this unit is out of your league, go Amplify way" kind sound pretty cocky to me, not only in this thread.

Thanks for checking, I'm not aware of anything that could be wrong with my setup and I studied all options, I'm frequent reader in these forums and I think I've read through every thread concerning "thin sound live". So I don't think it's a setup issue. The only way I could understand that somebody is not having these issues is that it depends on a guitar - if the guitar doesn't produce many highmid/high frequencies that POD cannot exaggerate them. So perhaps humbuckers are more thinsound-prone that singles. I have two strats - the cheapest korean-built no name which has very dull sound on it's own or when playing through an amp and it actually has smaller thinsound problems but overall it's a weak sound (no definition, no dynamics). Adn then I have an American Fender Strat Plus with Lindy Fralin pickups moreover with ash body and maple neck which is a great guitar sounding absolutely awesome through an amp but the rich top-end then makes it unusable on default POD settings. And no, I cannot conclude from this that I should use the duller-sounding cheap guitar to solve my problem :) It means that POD is very guitar sensitive and not in a sense "better guitar -> better tone" which is not a good thing either. Anyway, I'm glad it works for you. And I have solved the problem as well and with the help of Global EQ I may even get a great tone but still think the unit could be made more usable out-of-the-box quite easily. Hence my item on IdeaScale.

Yes, it's definitely related, perhaps that's it. I've read this article a while ago and based on it I could say the Live Gig mode should be optimized for, say, 85dB. I understand Line 6 cannot know what volume we'll be playing at but honestly I don't know either, each show and each soundguy is different, I cannot retweak all my sounds based on listening to PA during soundcheck on every gig (well, now with the upcoming Global EQ I will be able, which is absolutely briliant, but still the starting point provided by Line 6 is IMO unusable). Moreover it actually depends where each individual listener is positioned etc. So again, I'm just saying we should get something usable at approximately 85dB to start with and fine-tune either in each patch or by Global EQ. I think Studio/Direct is optimized to, say, 65dB which is what you use at home/in your headphones. That's why it works fine (as a starting point) when recording.

This is not true for my POD HD Pro. At a "comfortable to listen in isolation" level, perhaps, but at a gig volume level, absolutely not.

Cool, thanks. I didn't think you'd compare to the actual modelled amp, just an amp. If you pick a similar model, you should be able to say whether the tone is in the same ballpark frequency-wise, or in this case which of the modes is closer to it. I didn't know you were supposed to use the PREs models when running thru StageSource in the "Electric Guitar" mode. In that case it's irrelevant anyway, I guess.

Ok, interesting, thanks. Do you have an actual amp to which you could compare (like really head-to-head)? I wonder if it sounds more like an amp in the "flat" mode or in the "electric guitar" one...

Now here's a crazy thought that's been running thru my mind for some time now: Since everybody in Line 6 is a great guitarist and they have excellent engineers I guess there must be a purely business reason why they made POD HD such that it sounds unusable by default thru PA at a gig. And the reason could be that Line 6 wants us to use StageSource speakers which have this "Electric Guitar" mode, right? So I guess in this mode the speakers use the EQ which should be the "Live Gig" mode. I understand the speakers have more information about the volume that they're playing at so they could alter the EQ dynamically according to that but still. zaphodboy, I guess when you connect your POD HD to L3m with an electric guitar tone it will set the "Electric Guitar" mode on the speakers automatically, right? Could you switch manually to "Flat" and see what happens at a gig volume? Because that is what we here in the clubs... Anyway, I'd understand, it's all business, no hard feelings here...

A "good" tone is the one you get from a decent amp (even mic'ed), "usable" is from any tube amp and most ss amps, unusable is what you get when you plug HD in mixer, crank up the PA to a gig volume (at a live drumset level), use an empty patch with just an amp of your choice and set all controls to noon, use Studio/Direct output mode. I'm not saying I've tried all models this way but I don't expect them to be vastly different in this regard. Saying that somebody "doesn't recognize a good tone" is not meant offensively. I never owned a usable amp in my life, I started gigging with POD XT years ago and knew nothing about what a good tone is. Only after I switched to POD HD I got into a band where the guys told me my tone sucked which I had to admit after a while, started comparing to a real amp and started tweaking and learning. I hadn't realize before that my tone wasn't good.

Absolutely missing my point. What I'm saying is that the current starting point is ABSURDLY far away from ANY usable tone in HD -> PA gigging scenario (if anyone is objecting to this then they don't recognize a good tone from crap or my unit is faulty). Of course you would always tweak here and there to your liking but you wouldn't have to first waste your time going along a long road with many dead-end branches just to get in the ballpark. Now, "waste" is a strong word here as along the way I've learned so much about how an amp should sound, which frequencies are important for a guitar in the mix and how to tell which frequency is a tone lacking/needs cutting. But to hail that is like saying you should build your first car from scratch to really understand how it all works. Who wants to do that these days? And if you do you can always select a wrong output mode and voila, here is your challenge :D

Ok, thanks for all your opinions (no sarcasm here). I think we all see it a bit differently and that's fine. I'm not trying to talk anybody into not liking the sound they're getting from HD -> PA at a gig volume. As I said I have been able to make it sound good live by spending ages (yes, not the brightest guy the world, I guess) finding the right EQ settings and as I am at a "usable" level now I see it's a matter of EQ (to a large extent). Therefore my wish via IdeaScale was for Line6 to give us what they think are the best EQ settings for this scenario. That's what IdeaScale is for, right? I'm not complaining about features, I'm extremely happy we're getting Global EQ for free, I'm just revealing to Line6 that these "Live Gig" settings (preferably via a separate output mode) would make me very happy (even now but especially when I first got the unit). For you, guys, I just presented an invitation - if you agree with my idea, please vote for it. That's it. Nobody can explain to me that the HD couldn't have been (quite easily) much much better prepared for direct-to-mixer live use. Not with the set of ears I got, anyway ;) Peace

Let me just say I disagree. Your "absolutely sure it can't be done" attitude is amazing. "Amazing" is very subjective, how many tube amps do you consider to sound "amazing"? I never requested "amazing out of the box", I wanted "usable out of the box" . What we have now is not. I have usable (not amazing) live patches that's why I'm not saying POD HD cannot do it... Your FRFR argument... well, I have already replied to that previously. How come stage pianos/keyboards which in your world would need to have the exact same problem sound ok live? Anyway, I hope you will stumble upon this comment of yours in 10 years because my bet is you'll see that you are far from the truth today :)