No output on the left side until... - and some questions

[Olyoly]

Hi there,

here's my story:

I bought the M20D at the first day they started to sell it in Germany - after a few weeks I got a new one because of heat problems (http://line6.com/supportarchivenew/thread/87180) - and it worked well the next two years.

Then the problem started with channel 1 - first I thought, the microphone is broken, because sometimes the volume was very very low when singing - until I knocked very hard on the top of the mic - the volume came back and a few minutes later it was gone again. Later I noticed that I don't need to hit the mic - a very, very loud shout into the mic - and the volume was back.(I think there are some other user s with this problem.)

End of August this year I brought the mixer for a service to Session Music in Frankfurt and after three weeks I got it back and the problem was fixed.

Until now :angry:  - all of a sudden there is nearly no output on the left side of the main outs (the right output is working well.)

To check it I did a restart and then:

While the media player played a song, I changed the cables, checked the inputs of the PA (KS Audio), and and and ... still nearly no output on the left side of the main outs - until (more or less accidently) I cranked up the volume of the media player to the the max - voila: the left side worked like it should. But only for a few minutes - then the volume was nearly gone again.

It seems to be nearly the same problem as with channel 1 - the mixer needs a very high input to work again.

I will bring the mixer to Session Music again - luckily they have a three year guarantee - but slowly but surely I loose the confidence in this mixer (I still love it - but the love is getting low as the volume :-)

The biggest problem is, that I'm on the way to buy two Stagesource L3s and L3t - and here is my question:

Will Line6 (or Yamaha) stop the production (and the the updates) of the Dreamstage?

1. It seems that Session Music as well as Thomann (two of the biggest music shops in Germany) won't sell them anymore - they only have a few remaining speakers and that's all.

2. The latest software-update for the M20D is over a year ago - and this is a point that makes me not only doubtful but really angry: look at the ideabox - lots of ideas, improvement recommendations, and and and ... - nothing since September 2013.

I don't like to invest a lot of money in things that won't have support in the near future or in which the producing company has no more interest in. (And also the price policy ist a little bit strange to me - there is a german promotion video where they say, that the new price (nearly the half as in 2012) of the mixer is because of other competitors. I would stop to produce a mixer that won't bring me money - or are there still earnings, although the price is cut in half? Ok - you could say that Yamaha can produce it for less than Line6 - but what about the Stagesources? - they are still on a high price level.

Do you see my problem: I love the mixer, I am really a fan of the idea of the dream stage - but I have my doubts if there is a future because of the points I mentioned above.

I hope Line6 can take my doubts away!

And one more question: does anyone know what happened to our australian member Ron Marton? He did a lot of very interesting and informative posts and suddenly there is nothing more! Ron - are you still here?

Greetings

 

Roger
 

[Lilli59]

I see that I'm not alone ... !!! I'm in Italy and I also have the same problem. in fact to me is not only the first but also the channel 2,4,5. Open my post titled "Problems with the stagescape" written in Italian, I posted a video See it and let me know if it's the same problem. I in the meantime I'm preparing to send assistance in the mixer because as it is a live issue. Regards Michele Piazzolla

[actdmusic]

My mixer did exactly that last gig! I've lost the left main out! 

 

And this is a new mixer, I had a problem with the encoders and physical buttons on the first one and it was replaced. By the way, I LOVED how Line6 handled my first case. Top notch costumer support! 

 

But the unit definitely has some problems with quality control and reliability! It's a shame, because it is an incredible mixer. It has been making my life insanely easier since I have it. Apart from the technical problems of course.... 

[Rick_Auricchio]

This is just a guess, and perhaps the Line6 folks are already ahead of me on this.

 

When a strong gain boost suddenly "cuts through" like this, it's often because of oxidation on contact surfaces. This can happen at bad solder joints, at dirty plugs/jacks, or even circuit-board interconnects (like ribbon cables). The hotter signal punches through the oxidation---improving the connection for a while---but soon the connection fails again.

 

This isn't something the user can fix (as one would do when using contact cleaner in a dirty jack); it's got to be fixed by Line6 service.

[actdmusic]

I know! That was the first thing that came to mind... The question is, is it on a solder joint or in a plug? If it is on a solder joint, is it on he board itself or is it between the board and a wire? Or better still, a between a wire and the XLR socket? 

 

Because it may be very simple to solve by a local electronics technician... It would save a lot of time and expense in shipping...   

[Lilli59]

I apologize for the language but use the translator. I confirm the problem on the master channel to the left. Until now I had not noticed as always playing outside and using sound levels high enough fault would not show up. This evening with an mp3 player, I realized that in low volume channel sn raising the volume does not work ....... suddenly the channel is "unlocked" but soon after turning down the volume does not return to work. The input channels that have problems are 1-2-4-5-7-8-10. It seems as if you attack a microphone with mono instead of cannon ... you have a very low level signal. I could open the mixer and check for rust or other, but frankly I do not feel the mixer is still under warranty.

[Rick_Auricchio]

As I said, it isn't going to be something easy to fix. Line6 should fix it; they've got any necessary replacement parts too.

[tripenator]

I have issues with the outs...........no signal in monitors and main left right out............headphone out works fine, but i get no monitors, and no main left right outs.

[JMGladdis]

Hi All,

I also had the issue with the headphone and left main output loosing signal. It would require jiggling the cable until eventually it would work.  As this isn't the ideal solution, and because I am no longer under warranty, I decided to open up the Stagescape. The input section of the mixer encompasses the XLR inputs and outputs direct mounted to two circuit boards.  Not much to go wrong here short of faulty solder joints which seem unlikely. While I had it apart, I removed and re-seated the ribbon connectors from the input/ output circuit boards to the main logic board, and lo and behold,  this fixed the problem!  This was about 3 months, and a dozen gigs ago, and I have not had a problem since.   Not sure if this will work for all, but wanted to share my experience. 

 

I also agree with others on this board, I love this mixer, and it's a shame that the quality control issues can't be resolved.  I hope Yamaha commits to continuing the Stagescape line. 

[dboomer]

Hi Boris

 

This is the "user" forum and not a direct line to those you need to speak with.  

 

You'll need to open a service ticket to talk to Line 6.  I'm sure they will be happy to help you.

[jeWo]

Hi there,

 

I have the same problem! No output on the right side of the main outs... and it's a new mixer!

 

:angry:

[wersonnst]

Hi there,

 

The most of your problems will be the fixed by grounding the in an outputs propertly.

 

But first   If there is warranty   Use it ! Line6 will help You!

 

This Happend because  the Switch signal which detects an insertet XLR OR 1/4" is based on Ground Potential.

The Pluged in detection swiches are ativated by losing Ground.

The Ground Potential for each channel is connected via seperate spring elemet's to the casing. (Picture)

The casing GROUND is only connected by screws.

The most m20D's where this happend are an few years old where the surface begin to oxidate and the Ground Potential gone away.

The Harware had Ground Point's for Cable connection's but they are not used.

 

For the Signal in the Ground is not nesseary, but for the input and output detection of XLR OR 1/4". If it lost Ground it will detect 1/4" Jack first.

 

For me I solved the Problem by Grounding all canal 's and the top back and bottom case  by wire and brought  them to one Ground Point .

 

 

 

   

 

Nice Mixing everyone.

M20D Rocks.

 

 

http://line6.com/support/topic/8852-m20-input-level-disappears/

[Rick_Auricchio]

Very nice job!

 

I see you did this to one input PC board. Are there two similar boards, one for each row of jacks? Or are there two boards?

 

(I bought M20d in October 2014---and it works fine---but I wouldn't consider opening it up until the warranty expires.)

[wersonnst]

I did this to bouth PC boards . They are similar. On these boards are the mic in, line in monitor out and main out jacks. Yes one for  each row of Jacks.

 

The Phone ,Aux in , SD Card , USB Port , Foot Switch are on seperate board's.

I bought mine last year used in Britan and imported it. So there is no warranty.

 

If there is warranty on your M20d and you have an fault. as dboomer said,

 

You'll need to open a service ticket to talk to Line 6.  I'm sure they will be happy to help you.

[Rick_Auricchio]

My M20d is working fine, but I like your analysis of the problem and a good solution to it.

[JeffersteinVS]

I applied the above fix and can confirm my headphone jack is operational again. I was loosing signal on one of the 1/4 jacks half way through a show on stereo linked 1/4 channel  (per viewing the wav files I was able to discover this) I am going to perform some more tests on the inputs tonight.

[jaminjimlp]

Praise the Lord I have not had a problem!!! thanks for the info and solution... GREAT JOB BRO!!! this should be a sticky somewhere on this forum.

 

O yes and we love Ron Morton... Where is he?!?!?!

 

I haven't been around as much lately either but check in for time to time to see if there is an update on the firmware... I know "don't hold your breath" but I am hopping they will surprise me.

 

 My hope was that the sale to  Yamaha would spark new life into an already awesome product...

 

My theory is that there has not been good advertisement of most of Line 6 products and I think that the m20d is at the top of that list, nor have I ever seen it in a musician's friends or Guitar Center sales flyers they need to get the Nintendo advertisement team and/or take the page out of there book and flood the market with advertising and product and they would sell a lot more units.

 

Also there's a problem with demos you go to any local music store and you wont find any of their stuff besides amps that you can test drive. You know it can't be a money problem because my goodness you pay top dollar for there stuff. I had to drive from my local Guitar Center about 45 miles to the one in Atlanta to even be able to try out the m20D that was before I bought it almost 3 years ago, now you go up there and they don't even have that demo there anymore it's a shame because now that there are these other companies like QSC and Makie have their own touch screen mixers there on display and guess what no M20D setting their next to them, which IMHO is a much superior unit and I cannot figure out why in the world that you don't have  Line 6's offering there in the "mix" for comparison.

 

okay sorry for the rant :wacko:  I feel better now :lol:  there's my two cents... :D

[Rick_Auricchio]

I bought it almost 3 years ago, now you go up there and they don't even have that demo there anymore it's a shame because now that there are these other companies like QSC and Makie have their own touch screen mixers there on display and guess what no M20D setting their next to them, which IMHO is a much superior unit and I cannot figure out why in the world that you don't have Line 6's offering there in the "mix" for comparison.

I have some punctuation I can sell you cheap :)

 

Seriously, it does make things easier to read. Of course, many people use smartphones to post, and this tends to make it harder to punctuate. If you're dictating on the iPhone, you can actually say the words "period, comma, exclamation, etc."

 

Regarding this thread, I wrote an article about the topic in 2008 that was planned for Recording magazine, but never made it to print. (I wrote occasional articles and reviews for the magazine.) At the time, the issue was that Panasonic/Ramsa stopped updating the WR-DA7 digital mixer.

 

I've attached the article as a pdf.

upgrade.pdf

[davec69]

Just had something similar happen to our band last weekend.  Got to the gig, got everything setup, turned on the M20D, and only one channel of the mixer was outputting sound.  restarted several times with no change.   Eventually, I just created a new preset from scratch.  After starting fresh, everything worked, but we were late getting the show started, and did not have any of our previously saved settings.  

 

This is not the first time that this has happened, there has to be some issue.  For us, it's random.  I haven't found a way to duplicate it.

[Rick_Auricchio]

I just realized my "upgrade" article belongs in another thread. I'll post it there.

[jovel94]

Hi All,

I also had the issue with the headphone and left main output loosing signal. It would require jiggling the cable until eventually it would work.  As this isn't the ideal solution, and because I am no longer under warranty, I decided to open up the Stagescape. The input section of the mixer encompasses the XLR inputs and outputs direct mounted to two circuit boards.  Not much to go wrong here short of faulty solder joints which seem unlikely. While I had it apart, I removed and re-seated the ribbon connectors from the input/ output circuit boards to the main logic board, and lo and behold,  this fixed the problem!  This was about 3 months, and a dozen gigs ago, and I have not had a problem since.   Not sure if this will work for all, but wanted to share my experience. 

 

I also agree with others on this board, I love this mixer, and it's a shame that the quality control issues can't be resolved.  I hope Yamaha commits to continuing the Stagescape line. 

Hello thank you! I did the same thing and it worked! Both channels and headphones!

[Lee7uk]

Not to rub salt in the wounds, but, I remember a salesman trying to sell me an M20D when they first came out. At that time I was thinking of moving across to digital and the Line 6 board looked interesting, albeit, a bit childlike and aimed at the less technical of users out there. Over the course of the next 12 months or so I did my research on what was out or coming out to see what would suit my needs best, eventually I opted for the Allen & Heath QU-16, more expensive, but you are buying in to a company that has many years of experience within the live sound market. Not an excessively steep learning curve, but handy if you have an idea in regards to live sound etc.

 

At the time of first being offered the M20D it RRP here in the UK was £1499.00, only a few months later it had been reduced to £999.00 and not long after that the major music store here in the UK stopped selling it. That tells you something.

 

If you can afford to I would be moving your M20D's on and look for a better product that is still being constantly updated/improved and that is of better quality.

 

:)

[66d35]

I regularly use a QU-24.... and I have to say, I do not think it is "better quality". The M20D has quite a number of extremely useful features that the QU does not and in addition, the App for the QU's is way behind the M20D app in both sophistication and usability. The QU is a very good mixer, but I still prefer the M20D. I am not quite sure what the point was about a single music chain ceasing to stock the M20D. That happens all the time. I could just as easily point to a couple of places that did not stock them before, but now do (and have them on the shelf). Even if the M20D never gets another update, it is still one of the very best small format digital consoles out there.

 

Obviously, reliability is an issue... but as long as mine keeps working (and I got a 3 year warranty with it), I am OK with that. If and when something new comes out that can match or exceed it, I will look at that seriously. The QU SB is interesting, but you are 100% reliant on an external control device. No 'hands on', and I am not a great fan of the App.

[66d35]

Well.. out of nowhere, on Tuesday, my M20D started with this "change of input level" thing on a couple of channels. Quiet... then suddenly loud and distorted.  Following the info in these threads, I opened it up and cleaned and re-inserted the IDC ribbon cables (there are a couple of particularly thin, flimsy ones held by pressure clips) and also cleaned the ground contacts. I also added some tape to protect against potential shorts from the input PCB's to the casing (they are very, very close). That seems to have resolved everything... so far, so good. It does look as though many of the problems reported are due to these 'contact' issues...

 

 

[hansmerkx]

I have a problem with a difference in tone between the both main outputs

the right is much higher.  could this be a tech problem or is this a difference in eq settings and if so how do i tweak those?

is there even a way to tone tweak left and right outputs separately?

 

thanx

[Rewolf48]

It is possible to tone tweak L & R separately if using L2 or L3 speakers as mains as they have a 31 band Graphic EQ built in that can be individually set using the M20d.

Before anybody can help we really need more details:

What speakers are you using for mains? Are they set identically - the most likely cause is somebody changing the volume or eq knobs on a powered speaker.

What happens if you swap the L&R cables - does the sound difference follow or stay the same? If they stay the same then the problem is with the cables or the mains and nothing to do with the M20d, but if it swaps then it is the signal from the M20d that is the problem.

Is the problem on the complete mix or just one input - if it is a stereo pair Jack input then yes it can be hardware (I have this problem) - does it still exist if you swap to an alternative input channel (they are easily swapped - see the I/O Reassignment instructions in the manual). What happens if you swap the inputs L & R? If the sound switches then the problem is before the M20d.

If swapping input L&R and outputs L&R results in no changes then the issue is in the M20d or in your setup.

What if you create a new setup consisting of a single mono input panned directly up the middle. Still have the problem? A new set-up will eliminate virtually everything that can be set on the M20d and rebuilding a set-up is the way to ensure that nothing is corrupted or miss-set.

Only after all of that should you suspect a hardware issue inside the M20d and the most likely one is a problem with connectors both the external ones and internal ones - cleaning those with first Compressed Air and if that doesn't work then a proper switch/contact cleaner is the first stage before thinking about opening up the unit.