IdeaScale - "Live Gig" output mode

[kronda]

Hi Guys,

 

I submitted an idea to create a new output mode which could be called "Live" or "Live Gig". It's basically to have a good live sound out of the box (which with the current Studio/Direct is absolutely not the case). If you're like me and spent a lot of time tweaking your POD (I've been playing with it for 1.5 years now and still not done) and would like to free some FX slots which are currently occupied by EQs please consider voting for it:

 

http://line6.ideascale.com/a/dtd/POD-HD-New-Live-Gig-Output-Mode/688489-23508

 

Thanks

[BlueViolince]

You might want to rework your presets if they aren't already sounding good through a PA. What kind of setup are you using for adjusting your settings?  That might be a good place to start if you don't have a good live tone.  If you use headphones, expect that things will sound different in the house.  Make your amp model sound good.  Then EQ if necessary.  Then start adding effects.  It's better to get it sounding good from the ground up than trying to fix a full preset that's already loaded with FX blocks. 

[kronda]

Thanks but the idea is that it should be easier than that. If you take a decent real amp, set all controls at noon, plug in a decent guitar and start playing at a gig volume along with drums, you instantly get a usable tone. I think it should be similar with POD HD, not requiring you to throw in an EQ and search for the right settings. Moreover, you now see people wasting their time tweaking deep amp/cab params, lowering input impedance, turing treble+presence to zero etc. to get rid of the thin sound which is all wrong and doesn't really help, in my opinion. If you just put an amp in your POD HD patch, it should sound ok live (with the right global settings, i.e. output mode).

 

If Line6 in this forum (through the hands of digital_igloo) say that they want to help promote guitar playing etc. then they should start with the live sound because that's the real guitar playing. It's awesomely great to be able to record a "loud" metal guitar at home after midnight with your headphones on (no sarcasm) but it's not the real thing. Moreover, I don't think it should be that hard to add a new output mode with a decent EQ for live use.

 

I'm not saying Line 6 did a bad job with POD HD, the potential in the unit is absolutely amazing but adding just a little bit more for direct live playing would mean a huge step up. And I'm absolutely sure both the engineers and business people at Line6 must have discussed this "live issue" milion times, I just cannot figure out why they decided to now allow instant live tone. Absolute mystery to me. Compared to other requests (such as global EQ) this request should be a piece of cake from the technical point of you (of course, I might be wrong here but cannot see how). It doesn't even have to be a firmware update, just tell us the settings for the upcoming global EQ which would make it sound great live...

[BlueViolince]

The point of the DEP and all other settings is to give a large number of users enough option to get the sounds they want out of the unit.  If you want something that's truly plug and play, with no tweaking involved, maybe a Boss ME series, or Zoom multi with a regular combo is a better choice for you.  Or, check out the AmpliFi.  It's designed more for someone who doesn't want to have as many options, with a simpler interface.  I've been using the HD500 for a few years now, and it's adapted to every venue.  Add pedals in the loop if you want to.  Or turn off the amp models and use a combo with it.  The strength of the HD series is the depth of options, making it adaptable to live or studio.  It's not plug and play.  It's not "easy" but all the sounds are there if you take the time and effort to customize it for your own needs.

[kronda]

Thanks for your response but I consider it off-topic.

[phil_m]

There's no magic bullet Line 6 could implement to give you great live tone in an instant through an amp. Whatever amp you plug into will have different tonal characteristics. The easiest way to get consistently good live tone is to create patches through the same system you're playing through live, or if you're going direct, to use great full frequency, flat response monitors while making your patches.

[BigBob-Irwin]

What are you putting the pod through live? is it a PA a guitar amp if it is a guitar amp why don't you use the 4 cable method and let the amp give the tone? I must admit to a frustration using the unit in a sense that I have the Dream Rig set up (so have enough invested into the system) and to me if I get a good studio sound if I save that patch twice one for recording or playing at home through my studio monitors then to get that sound via line 6 link into a DT25 all I should do would be to change the full amp to a preamp and switch the cab off and a few tweeks should in essence get me the studio tone but through the amp but unfortunately this is not so and there are a lot of grey areas to say the least. If I could find a constant between the studio and amp settings i.e a eq setting I would be a happy man in the meantime I am seriously thinking of setting up the DT25 with my 2 favorite amps and either using the 500x in the 4 cable method or consign the pod 500x for the studio and take pedals and my DT25 with me

[fentemple]

I have to agree with kronda, while the pod is a nice practice tool, live it just doesn't sound great. When you go direct to the pa you should be able to just select an amp and of you go.

[radatats]

in the meantime I am seriously thinking of setting up the DT25 with my 2 favorite amps and either using the 500x in the 4 cable method or consign the pod 500x for the studio and take pedals and my DT25 with me

 

see now I am the opposite... I am leaning more to not using the DT at all and just going direct to PA and grabbing a pair of powered monitors if I need a backline.  I am very pleased with the full amp models once you take the time to really build a complete patch and I got tired of having to rebuild them to mono and compensate for the different output mode.  Plus its SO much easier not to have to drag a cab and head around...   :D

[radatats]

I have to agree with kronda, while the pod is a nice practice tool, live it just doesn't sound great. When you go direct to the pa you should be able to just select an amp and of you go.

 

and with respect I totally disagree.  The POD sounds as good live as you make it.  If it doesn't, look in the mirror for the solution.  It is a serious piece of gear that takes time to learn and use to its full capabilities.  It was designed and built that way on purpose for those that wanted a professional level modeler for live  and studio work.  there are a lot of levels to it and some really deep editing features.  You can't just turn it on and be good to go.  

 

If you just want a plug and play unit you should look at the rest of the line such as AMPLIFi or Firehawk FX.  There is no need to dumb down the HD series...

[kronda]

There's no magic bullet Line 6 could implement to give you great live tone in an instant through an amp. Whatever amp you plug into will have different tonal characteristics. The easiest way to get consistently good live tone is to create patches through the same system you're playing through live, or if you're going direct, to use great full frequency, flat response monitors while making your patches.

 

I explain on IdeaScale that I mean going straight into the mixer and then flat-response PA. I strongly disagree that this cannot be done. Flat-response means it's more or less the same everywhere (sure the room has some effect but that is the same if you bring an amp, so it's irrelevant in this discussion) and so the only parameter should be volume. And from a gig-attending listener the volume should always be pretty much the same - pretty loud. So there is basically no variable left except for the taste of an individual guitarist. Well, that's why we have a bunch of amp models in POD HD, everyone can choose their favourite.

 

I make my patches on a PA in our rehearsal room at a volume which I think should match a gig. I'm getting better and better but I had to learn a lot during the process of tuning my patches and this knowledge is already present in Line6. Just use it...

[kronda]

and with respect I totally disagree.  The POD sounds as good live as you make it.  If it doesn't, look in the mirror for the solution.  It is a serious piece of gear that takes time to learn and use to its full capabilities.  It was designed and built that way on purpose for those that wanted a professional level modeler for live  and studio work.  there are a lot of levels to it and some really deep editing features.  You can't just turn it on and be good to go.  

 

If you just want a plug and play unit you should look at the rest of the line such as AMPLIFi or Firehawk FX.  There is no need to dumb down the HD series...

 

I agree it has it all in it. The whole point of this discussion and my idea on IdeaScale is that it requires a lot of effort, time and knowledge and in the end we're all struggling and use sub-optimal patches because we don't have the best knowledge. And Line6 are in the best position to come up with the best possible settings which would more or less suite anybody.

[gunpointmetal]

You're assuming that a PA system is actually "Flat-Response", which they almost never are. If you had a perfectly acoustically treated room and "true" FRFR speakers and you set your patches at gig volume, then go down to your local club with a full-scale PA and plug in, its probably gonna sound like lollipop, even if the place has massive, high-end speakers and a $20,000 board because all that gear will have EQ'd all that stuff to be "flat for the room" and your pristine patches will not translate. It would be awesome if you could just take your patches from one situation to another and have them sound completely awesome on every output mode, via any amplification source, but thats not very realistic. At the very least, the POD would require a reference mic and a smart, adaptive EQ for it to even work properly. I would venture to guess that if you had a completely empty signal chain and you throw a random amp, cab/mic, and leave the controls at "50" you could get a "useable" tone, just like you would out of a tube amp (honestly though, "useable" and something I would actually use are usually very different things. Everything that appears in the HD's effects chain is something that someone would need to know how to use (except EQs w/percentages, nobody needs to know that besides POD HD users) to get a sound if that piece of gear is actually in your chain. If you like the sound of an amp with nothing but the controls at noon and nothing else, the POD will do that. 

 

Whenever I've had friends or acquaintances ask me for help with a POD, or any modeling, the first thing I usually find is too much in the chain, too many EQs, too much gain, wrong amp model for the sound they're after, poor signal chaining, and usually within 5 minutes I can get them "close" to what they're after.

 

If it sounds crap after you've edited your patches, thats on you. If it sounds crap with factory patches, its because, well, they're factory patches and they usually sound like crap. If you build your tones for their intended purpose, know your output modes, and understand signal chaining, there is no reason for the POD to sound like lollipop, ever. 

[gunpointmetal]

If you just want to buy a modeler, plug it in, and have it sound amazing everywhere you go, thats never gonna happen.

I agree it has it all in it. The whole point of this discussion and my idea on IdeaScale is that it requires a lot of effort, time and knowledge and in the end we're all struggling and use sub-optimal patches because we don't have the best knowledge. And Line6 are in the best position to come up with the best possible settings which would more or less suite anybody.

I don't think all of us feel like we're using sub-optimal patches. I happen to get lots of tonal compliments, even from guys who play through $2000 tube heads into $1200 cabs, and guys who don't even really like the kind of music I do. Maybe something like the Amplifi, or FireHawk are more up your alley?

[kronda]

If you just want to buy a modeler, plug it in, and have it sound amazing everywhere you go, thats never gonna happen.

 

Let me just say I disagree. Your "absolutely sure it can't be done" attitude is amazing. "Amazing" is very subjective, how many tube amps do you consider to sound "amazing"? I never requested "amazing out of the box", I wanted "usable out of the box" . What we have now is not. I have usable (not amazing) live patches that's why I'm not saying POD HD cannot do it...

 

Your FRFR argument... well, I have already replied to that previously. How come stage pianos/keyboards which in your world would need to have the exact same problem sound ok live?

 

Anyway, I hope you will stumble upon this comment of yours in 10 years because my bet is you'll see that you are far from the truth today :)

[gunpointmetal]

Those keyboards and similar instruments sound "fine" through any "full-range" rig, but I guarantee that they don't sound exactly the same from room to room, PA to PA. 

 

Like I said, it could be done with a reference mic and an adaptive EQ....you tell the POD what it should sound like in your "ideal", set that as a preference, then play in a different room where the mic would tell the EQ to make it sound like your preference, but that still requires physical work, a little bit of gear knowledge, and more hardware. 

 

Every room sounds different, every PA sounds different, and guitarists are NOTORIOUSLY picky about their sound. I don't think I've ever heard a keyboard player say "Ah, this pad sound a gajillion times different through this amp" because they're usually less concerned with every minute detail in a live setting. 

 

I'm not saying its a bad idea, simply a nearly-impossible-to-implement one based on the endless variable in performing music in a live context.

[fentemple]

I don't have to use multiple EQ's with a real amp te sound good with different PA's  or rooms.....

[gunpointmetal]

but does it sound the same?

[fentemple]

It will sound different, but not bad. I really would like the idea of just having to take my hd500 and have a reliable sound everywhere I go. I know that, what I am hearing on stage, may not be the best sound possible due to monitors or other amplification I need to use, but at least through the PA it should sound good if not great...

[phil_m]

I don't have to use multiple EQ's with a real amp te sound good with different PA's  or rooms.....

 

Apples and oranges. With a real amp, you're pretty much always hearing the same thing - the sound coming from the amp's speaker cabinet. Perhaps if you're standing far enough away from the amp, have the amp in a corner or something like that, you'll hear some of the room effects. But if you're micing the amp, I can guarantee that the sound guy is going to have to make adjustments to the EQ on the channel strip from gig to gig to account for the different variables. The thing with going direct is that you're kind of taking on some of the responsibility of the sound guy. The other side of that, though, is that it allows you to hear what you really sound like in the PA. With a miced amp setup, you never really know. It could sound great to you on stage, but it might sound horrible in the FOH mix.

[joel_brown]

Studio Direct, Combo Stack, and all the other settings are just different EQ curves.  Now that we're getting a Global EQ in the next firmware (that doesn't take an FX slot) you will have the ability to do what you want to do.  Having Line6 come up with a setting that sounds great is like asking them to have presets that sound great, and we know what happened there. 

[gunpointmetal]

or what we'll end up with is "hyped" sound (like Bose home audio equipment, and "sonic maximizers") that mask the unpleasant parts of a tone by completely removing them, boosting around them, or applying a drastic EQ curve) and will get lost in a mix, but probably sound awesome on its own.

[fentemple]

Phil, I don't see the difference the sound guy can make the same adjustments to the HD. I really don't think that the most basic patch you can make, say the JCM800 with the greenback cab and an sm57, sounds the same as an real amp. There should be no need to adjust that mutch, especially since you have a constant from the HD.

I know that a miked amp in another room will sound better.

[phil_m]

Phil, I don't see the difference the sound guy can make the same adjustments to the HD. I really don't think that the most basic patch you can make, say the JCM800 with the greenback cab and an sm57, sounds the same as an real amp. There should be no need to adjust that mutch, especially since you have a constant from the HD.

I know that a miked amp in another room will sound better.

 

You know based on what? A real A/B comparison? I don't have any Marshall amps, but I've done comparisons with amps that I do own and the HD models, and to me the differences are pretty negligible when comparing the HD to the isolated miced signal from the amp.

[fentemple]

Yes real comparison, though through a PA.

[gunpointmetal]

I call shenanigans

[fentemple]

Last Saturday I had the oppertunity to try out the HD trough a PA, after 2 hous of tweaking I could not get an satisfying sound, flat lifeless. I also brought my koch pedaltone , which is an tubepreamp with an simple di output, bam instant there....

[fentemple]

Shenanigans it is not.....unfortunately

[gunpointmetal]

I've said it a hundred times.....its not the gear, its the user. I've been playing out live for over half of my life now, on everything from expensive tube heads, to lollipop solid state combos, and I've used modeling through a guitar cab or FRFR exclusively for the last 7 years or so. If patches through a PA sound flat and lifeless, its not because thats how the POD sounds, could be the implement used to build them in the first place, could be a sound guy that doesn't know his inputs very well (line/mic/balanced/unbalanced).... The only that affects the sound I'm used to hearing from rig is A) the room, and B) whatever the sound guy does after the fact. There is no "magic bullet" to make mediocre patches sound "useable" or make a tone that sounds awesome in your headphones at bedroom volume carry the same through a PA in a 200-person venue. I find it hard to believe its the device's issue when thousands of people use them easily enough with above-satisfactory results on a daily basis......

[radatats]

wouldn't make a damn bit of difference if they made what you ask for... guarantee somebody else would be on here 5 minutes later complaining that it sounds like $hit, can't make a decent patch, too complicated, dull, lifeless... etc..   I still say if you can't make it work, look in the mirror or get something else...

[gunpointmetal]

wouldn't make a damn bit of difference if they made what you ask for... guarantee somebody else would be on here 5 minutes later complaining that it sounds like $hit, can't make a decent patch, too complicated, dull, lifeless... etc..   I still say if you can't make it work, look in the mirror or get something else...

[juicyjones]

wouldn't make a damn bit of difference if they made what you ask for... guarantee somebody else would be on here 5 minutes later complaining that it sounds like $hit, can't make a decent patch, too complicated, dull, lifeless... etc..   I still say if you can't make it work, look in the mirror or get something else...

 

What he said. 

[bjnette]

In the real world a touring act most likely is using their fav or sponsored amp(s) pedal board so the performer can replicate his records. He most likely has a guitar tech as well as a roadies for mic placement etc etc. Check out Premier Guitar Rig rundowns.

 

That is what it takes for the top players on the planet to go on the road.

 

A microcosm of that is I'm in my bedroom headphones on and just downloaded a bunch patches and got them sounding good and saved them.

 

Now you go to rehearsal and the patches don't work thru the PA but the singer doesn't want you playing thru it as it is effecting his tone and it is only a practice PA so you get your amp back in for rehearsal, 

 

Then  you get a gig and its an outdoor concert and you brought your rehearsal amp but the FOH took it out of the HD when should of mic'd your amp, the sound is way off you are on the spot to fix it  POD HD gets dumped

 

You decide to give it one more chance you set up the patches with the outdoor concert PA at sound check next time and that went alright.

Next gig is indoors and thats a disaster. POD get s turfed. "for a more simple set up"

 

It would be nice to have a magic output that just resolved the playback issues for you kind of like your own personal tech!

I am sure it is not impossible and it would cost more. 

 

The unit will be great for practice, then great for recording , then great for live in various locations. All different spaces.

 

We live on a planet that has an atmosphere and we have developed ears out of survival to locate danger and track food.

 

A sound transmits across air molecules under pressure and is called a vibration. crack of lightening for example.

It'l continue, rolling thunder.

When a sound hits a shiny hard barrier it further ratifies. rumbles.

 

Well we are getting a global EQ and that is the solution!

[kronda]

Ok, thanks for all your opinions (no sarcasm here). I think we all see it a bit differently and that's fine. I'm not trying to talk anybody into not liking the sound they're getting from HD -> PA at a gig volume.

 

As I said I have been able to make it sound good live by spending ages (yes, not the brightest guy the world, I guess) finding the right EQ settings and as I am at a "usable" level now I see it's a matter of EQ (to a large extent). Therefore my wish via IdeaScale was for Line6 to give us what they think are the best EQ settings for this scenario. That's what IdeaScale is for, right? I'm not complaining about features, I'm extremely happy we're getting Global EQ for free, I'm just revealing to Line6 that these "Live Gig" settings (preferably via a separate output mode) would make me very happy (even now but especially when I first got the unit).

 

For you, guys, I just presented an invitation - if you agree with my idea, please vote for it. That's it. Nobody can explain to me that the HD couldn't have been (quite easily) much much better prepared for direct-to-mixer live use. Not with the set of ears I got, anyway   ;)

 

Peace

[radatats]

I kind of think you just answered your own non-question... you have through hard work and effort developed a set of patches with the correct EQ for YOUR taste in tone.  I have no idea what that actually is so how could I possibly vote for it?  Do you anticipate that Line 6 will come up with the same EQ settings you did?  Should I expect that that will be the holy grail of tone for my personal taste?  Would it somehow be a better jumping off point for me to develop my own tones?

 

I guess that is why I can't go along with the idea since I love the fact that they have provided the tools for each of us to develop that live gig or studio tone that we want to hear.  There is little chance that it will be the same from one to another but that is the beauty of the system.  Especially considering the multitude of options at our disposal for completing the sound system from guitars to amps to PA...  None of us have the exact same setup so any base setting from the factory will always be nothing more than a starting point and arguably (no pun intended) no better than where we currently start...

[bjnette]

This reminds me of some of the old original multiFX units back in the 80s.

They translated very well into different playback options with a little tweaking.

There are way more parameters and numerous options now with the HD.

Seems the anwer you want might be the Firehawk Amplifi etc

[BigBob-Irwin]

 

radatats said 

see now I am the opposite... I am leaning more to not using the DT at all and just going direct to PA and grabbing a pair of powered monitors if I need a backline.  I am very pleased with the full amp models once you take the time to really build a complete patch and I got tired of having to rebuild them to mono and compensate for the different output mode.  Plus its SO much easier not to have to drag a cab and head around..

I am sure this works for you however I am not in a position to try this out as I have spent all my money on the DT25 now as I thought this would be the rig for me having always been used to hot tubes on the output since starting playing back in the day. It is now my retirement year and have blown my options money wise so I am going to try and persevere and see whats the best live tone I can get.

[kronda]

I kind of think you just answered your own non-question... you have through hard work and effort developed a set of patches with the correct EQ for YOUR taste in tone.  I have no idea what that actually is so how could I possibly vote for it?  Do you anticipate that Line 6 will come up with the same EQ settings you did?  Should I expect that that will be the holy grail of tone for my personal taste?  Would it somehow be a better jumping off point for me to develop my own tones?

 

I guess that is why I can't go along with the idea since I love the fact that they have provided the tools for each of us to develop that live gig or studio tone that we want to hear.  There is little chance that it will be the same from one to another but that is the beauty of the system.  Especially considering the multitude of options at our disposal for completing the sound system from guitars to amps to PA...  None of us have the exact same setup so any base setting from the factory will always be nothing more than a starting point and arguably (no pun intended) no better than where we currently start...

 

Absolutely missing my point. What I'm saying is that the current starting point is ABSURDLY far away from ANY usable tone in HD -> PA gigging scenario (if anyone is objecting to this then they don't recognize a good tone from crap or my unit is faulty). Of course you would always tweak here and there to your liking but you wouldn't have to first waste your time going along a long road with many dead-end branches just to get in the ballpark.

 

Now, "waste" is a strong word here as along the way I've learned so much about how an amp should sound, which frequencies are important for a guitar in the mix and how to tell which frequency is a tone lacking/needs cutting. But to hail that is like saying you should build your first car from scratch to really understand how it all works. Who wants to do that these days? And if you do you can always select a wrong output mode and voila, here is your challenge  :D

[radatats]

if anyone is objecting to this then they don't recognize a good tone from crap or my unit is faulty

 

maybe you  should post some of your tones on Customtone so we can see what you are talking about.  See if I can recognize a good tone...

[kronda]

maybe you  should post some of your tones on Customtone so we cab see what you are talking about.  See if I can recognize a good tone...

 

A "good" tone is the one you get from a decent amp (even mic'ed), "usable" is from any tube amp and most ss amps, unusable is what you get when you plug HD in mixer, crank up the PA to a gig volume (at a live drumset level), use an empty patch with just an amp of your choice and set all controls to noon, use Studio/Direct output mode. I'm not saying I've tried all models this way but I don't expect them to be vastly different in this regard.

 

Saying that somebody "doesn't recognize a good tone" is not meant offensively. I never owned a usable amp in my life, I started gigging with POD XT years ago and knew nothing about what a good tone is. Only after I switched to POD HD I got into a band where the guys told me my tone sucked which I had to admit after a while, started comparing to a real amp and started tweaking and learning. I hadn't realize before that my tone wasn't good.