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Frfr to house/Amp on stage


MakeItShredNo1
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Any advice on creative routing/fx usage for similtaneously sending a frfr signal to foh and preamps the fx return of an on stage amp? (Or another cheap solution to the following problem)

 

I've happily gigged with an HD500 straight to Foh for five years now, but I've wished for a while now that I could have some more air moving on stage. I know I could get a frfr cab - but I'd prefer not to drop that kind of money, so I started trying to figure out how to get my hot rod deluxe to fill the bill now that I have a helix.

 

I've made a couple patches with two preamp models in path A and two full amps in path B. All the pre fx are fine, but then I have to have duplicates of all the post fx, which gets limiting very fast especially with reverb. (Pretty sure the hrd power amp in bypasses the spring verb, but I only experimented with that a little) I would be OK with having the stage amp dry since I'd still have in ears, but I still don't have enough DSP to have a "normal" verb/delay and also a wet "swell" verb/delay*

 

Btw, this is a use case where separate power amps or fx loop modeling would be super handy.

 

 

*Side note, got a pretty good emulation of the Strymon "ice" reverb going I'm going to share soon.

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When I set mine up that way I just split the path after the preamp.  On one side of the split I'll add a cabinet or IR and send it out the XLR jacks to the PA.  On the other side I'll send it out to the amp.

 

I don't think you can get around needing some duplicate post fx unless you're willing to run one side of the split dry.

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You can take a "keep it simple" approach and just mic the combo at gigs ;) Helix pres into a fender hot rod sound great.

 

You will get some good tips from this group, but it was a long and frustrating path for me, especially when I wanted to make a seemingly small patch change. It became no longer worth it.

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What type of amp will you be using with it? I'm not 100% sure this would work, but what you could try is setting up path 1A with your preamp, fx, etc and then set the output of that path to Send 1 (as an example). You would then run a 1/4" from Send 1 to your amp's return. Now after all your preamp, fx, etc on path 1A add a split to path 1B and set that path's output to feed into Path 2. Now on path 2 setup your helix cab(s) or IRs (whichever your using) and set the output to your XLRs or 1/4" (whichever you wish to run to FOH).

 

As I said, I'm not positive this will work but in my head the logic seems sound.

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So, a couple people suggested using a preamp model and then splitting that into two paths, one with an IR and post FX sent to FOH and the other with post FX and no cab sent to the hot rod deluxe.  

 

The problem with this is that the FOH mix then does not get power amp modeling.  A preamp into an IR will sound ok, but it will definitely be lacking compared to a full amp (that's why there are separate preamp and full amp blocks, in addition to amp+cab).  One option would be to get something like a Torpedo Cab and run it in a loop, replacing the IRs in the path I mentioned earlier.  That would free up a ton of DSP since I wouldn't have to have duplicate amp blocks, but that's gonna cost halfway to getting a cheaper frfr speaker.  If I had to outboard something, I'd rather something sexier like a Timeline.  

Just in case it comes to that - does anyone know if the Timeline can be "dual mono" instead of stereo?  That is, two inputs* into a mono delay, and then two  separate outputs?  Seems like it should be but I'm not taking anything for granted.

*The signal path is getting complex for describing verbally here, but basically I'm asking can it keep the path going to the HRD separate from the path going to FOH.  

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I used to use amp for onstage monitor. I found setting the amp very clean and global eq it, I sent the full Helix signal into the front input. I sat and A/B'd it with PA to get the eq settings on the amp and the global eg. I got really close to FOH tone on the amp.

 

Essentially, I created an FRFR with my amp. I used an Egnator Tweaker 40. The Hot Rod should also work.

 

Edit: Global eq the 1/4 only to the Hot Rod and no global to xlr to FOH.

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So, a couple people suggested using a preamp model and then splitting that into two paths, one with an IR and post FX sent to FOH and the other with post FX and no cab sent to the hot rod deluxe.

 

The problem with this is that the FOH mix then does not get power amp modeling. A preamp into an IR will sound ok, but it will definitely be lacking compared to a full amp (that's why there are separate preamp and full amp blocks, in addition to amp+cab). One option would be to get something like a Torpedo Cab and run it in a loop, replacing the IRs in the path I mentioned earlier. That would free up a ton of DSP since I wouldn't have to have duplicate amp blocks, but that's gonna cost halfway to getting a cheaper frfr speaker. If I had to outboard something, I'd rather something sexier like a Timeline.

 

Just in case it comes to that - does anyone know if the Timeline can be "dual mono" instead of stereo? That is, two inputs* into a mono delay, and then two separate outputs? Seems like it should be but I'm not taking anything for granted.

 

*The signal path is getting complex for describing verbally here, but basically I'm asking can it keep the path going to the HRD separate from the path going to FOH.

Sorry I should have been clear on my post and suggested a full amp model as opposed to a preamp. Even running into the FX return of a proper amp I still find them to sound better. Do you run DSP intensive patches? If not the Torpedo would be massive overkill in my opinion. As an alternative you could look at a Mesa Cab Clone. I use that with my Tubemeister 36 sometimes. I plug the speaker out to the Cab Clone, then into my cab plus it's also got a 1/4" dry line out that I can feed back into the Helix to use the HX cabs and IRs if I want and as a bonus, I was pleasantly surprised at how well the 3 speaker emulations on the Cab Clone sounded.

 

I think with my method I outlined above though you should be fine and still be able to use your Strymon in one of the loops. If your having a hard time visualizing it, I could try and setup a patch when I get home tonight and post it for you.

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Another inexpensive option may be to use a good solid state combo or SS amp+cab. Helix full amp models sound great through effects return of a solid state amp and a good guitar cab. You can really hear the nuances of the Helix amp models while getting the feel of a real guitar cab. You may even have one laying around. If not, a good 1x12 SS combo can be had for $200 or less. The Randall RG series looks appealing to me personally, but there are PLENTY of options out there.

This eliminates the coloration you get when running full amp models into a tube amp. It's sort of a hybrid FRFR approach, but without the cab modelling since you would be using an actual guitar speaker/cab.

This is the method used by many Fractal and Kemper guys. Also, the new BIAS head and rack with built in 600w SS power amps are intended to run this way.  You can get as expensive as you want with Matrix power amps and high end guitar cabs.

I am currently running Helix full amp models into a SS amp into a Mesa V30 2x12 cab. I'm still mic'ing the cab, but I had previously successfully split the signal after the Helix full amp model and effects into a separate XLR FOH path with cab blocks/IR's. We have a few places we play where the sound guys just want to mic the cab anyway, so I just went with the flow.

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I really like both the suggestion of full amp models into the hot rod and eq to faux-frfr, and also using a SS amp. I've got an old Marshall MG head that is very transparent.

 

It'll be a few days till I can sit down with both the pa and an amp, so I'll report what happens.

 

I didn't realize the cab clone had a dry out, that definitely worth investigating as well.

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Alto truesonic ts 212.  1100 watts peak? I have two.  Really solid, can send an out from the alto to FOH as well.  Probably $600 for two of them.  Light, no bigger than a QSC k12.  For guitar the sound is equal to the k12.

I ordered the Helix last week and thought I could just use my amp.  After some research I saw its better to use a speaker like these.  I ended up ordering the FS210 and should get here tommorow.  So far I've only been able to test my helix on bad headphones and a 3 inch studio monitor.  Can't wait to see how it sounds!  I plan to just use it for indoor use.

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I really like both the suggestion of full amp models into the hot rod and eq to faux-frfr, and also using a SS amp. I've got an old Marshall MG head that is very transparent.

 

It'll be a few days till I can sit down with both the pa and an amp, so I'll report what happens.

 

I didn't realize the cab clone had a dry out, that definitely worth investigating as well.

 

 

Cool.  Sounds like you have some workable gear in your possession already.

 

The Fender amps (hot rods, etc.) do have a good fairly neutral 6L6 power section.  I actually ran Helix through a Hot Rod Deville in GC with a friend of mine that worked there.  I bet the full amp models will be acceptable to you with only a little coloration.  It wont likely be EXACTLY what's going to the FOH, but the difference likely unnoticeable to you, your bandmates or the audience in a live band situation.

 

I went back and forth A-B'ing an obsessively between my Line 6 Spider Valve HD100 (6L6 and very neutral) effects return in, and a solid state amp with Helix full amp models.  I feel for the forum members here for fickle blatherings I posted ;)

 

I was convinced and sold on using my tube SV head.  I loved the sound coming out and I thought I had the world figured out.  Then I split the path into an IR I made of the exact Mesa 2x12 I was using and found that the solid state amp through the 2x12 was MUCH closer to the split path with the IR of the same cab.  Plus I finally did realize the SV was coloring a bit, albeit pleasant coloring, and I could hear more of the nuances of the Helix amp models and more of differences between them with a SS amp.

 

Anyway, good tweaking to ya!

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