Do You Have The Same Problem With 6th String?

[MiroslavKloud]

I edited the text, perhaps it is longer correct.

Piezo and the bridge were replaced in service center at your dealer:

 

AUDIO PARTNER s.r.o.
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Tel.: +420 244 090 430
Email: komunikace@kytary.cz

 

If there is anything unintelligible, tell me.

I'll try to improve.

[psarkissian]

Thanks.

[cruisinon2]

 

5) I swap the wires from the E6 and A5 piezos into the circuit board.

- The string E6 is OK

- The problem is now on the string A5

 

Well if this is true, it's the most telling bit of information. They can't very well blame a mechanical issue if the defect can be made to hop from one string to another simply by switching wires on the circuit board. There's no way a mechanical vibration can just bounce locations like that. If E6 vibrates funny, then E6 vibrates funny. You can't transfer the origin of the offending frequency by moving wires around.

 

Anyone?

[Geamala]

Ok, someone else was posting that they put some felt under the string and it removed the issue. I think they were saying that the string was vibrating against the cradle for the piezo. Some have even filed this cradle down so that the string does not vibrate against it with good results.

 

I don't have any felt so I folded some thin packaging foam sheet and cut a strip. I placed it under the string and it did nothing at all. No improvement. I would upload a photo if someone can tell me how to.

 

On closer inspection the string doesn't seem to be vibrating against the piezo cradle at all any way but I still have the horrible overtone on the lowest string even when trying to space it out from the cradle. So far I have figured out that the issue is not with the cradle of the piezo. I'm still guessing it is the actual piezo itself or something leading from there.

[Charlie_Watt]

If this test was done as reported, that indicates the problem is in the electronics.

[MiroslavKloud]

Thanks.

 

 

Thanks - End

or

Thanks - we are preparing solutions.

?

[psarkissian]

Regarding sending a piezo wire to another string doesn't mean anything.

Each string has it's own signal line. The processor will treat the E-string as

if it were the A-string, so of that signal path won't sound right. The processor

knows which string is which, it expects to have the correct string on the

correct signal path line.

 

If the bridge and its piezos are replaced and it didn't solve the problem,

then the problem is not the bridge and its piezos.

 

If the electronics were replaced and it didn't solve the problem, then the

problem is not the electronics.

 

Process of elimination. That narrows it down to something mechanical.

[cruisinon2]

Regarding sending a piezo wire to another string doesn't mean anything.

Each string has it's own signal line. The processor will treat the E-string as

if it were the A-string, so of that signal path won't sound right. The processor

knows which string is which, it expects to have the correct string on the

correct signal path

I'm struggling to understand this explanation. If an awful noise from one string can be moved around at will to other strings by swapping wires, them how can the issue be anything but electronic?

 

A mechanical noise fouling up the modeling has to have a point of origin. And wherever that point is, I don't see how it could possibly be moving around...and if it is, it's a hell of a coincidence that you can dictate which string will sound awful just by swapping wires.

[psarkissian]

The electronics were replaced and there is still a problem, then

process of elimination points to something else non-electronic.

 

And messing around in there without schematics and service

info is not a good idea.

 

There would be other frequency artifacts that would occur as

a result of swapping wire like that. Some Model settings would

be more noticeable than others.

[MiroslavKloud]

The A5 string is fine (in modeling). Tell us why.

Reminder: The A5 string produces a worse parasitic frequency than the E6.

[psarkissian]

It's fine so long as the the correct string is going down it's

correct signal path. The string/piezo is matched to the correct

signal path, or there will be frequency artifacts on some of

the Models.

 

To get any more particular or deeper than that, go to Julius

Orion Smith III's web link at CCMRA at Stanford University.

He teaches processing and Modeling. I've gone as deep into

the circuit concepts as I'm allowed to.

 

Since the bridge and electronics were replaced and the problem

is still there, then something other than the bridge/piezos and

electronics is involved.

[cruisinon2]

The A5 string is fine (in modeling). Tell us why.

Reminder: The A5 string produces a worse parasitic frequency than the E6.

 

Forget it bro...the answer ain't coming.

[MiroslavKloud]

Yes. The answer ain't coming. 

I know the answer. Psarkissian knows the answer. Line6 know the answer.

I call upon you, who have the same problem, upload a videos.

[MiroslavKloud]

I'll try another question.

The guitar was sent to your repair shop on May 11, was returned on July 29.

During so a long time was not repaired.

 

Why?

[psarkissian]

I would suspect,...

... that there are a number of other repairs in the line.

Don't know where in the line yours was. It shouldn't take

that long, but sometimes it does. Rare, but it happens.

 

They probably gave yours some extra looking over and

extra testing as well. That might take a while longer than

usual as a result. And since they replace some electronics,

depending on where the parts shipped from, that would also

add to the time.

[MiroslavKloud]

I had in mind:

why the fault has not been eliminated?

You say: "there is only mechanical problem". It should be easy to resolve.

[MiroslavKloud]

Again no response...

If I ask, how many strings does a guitar have,

he would answer: The guitar is made of wood.

[psarkissian]

As I've said before,... mechanical, so it's more than likely the set-up

needs adjusting somewhere.

 

And yes, the guitar is made of wood, the hardware is made of metal,

so a lot things resonate. So it all gets checked and if needed, adjusted.

 

One thing I adjust when playing my JTV's, is my technique. Knowing

how sensitive this stuff is, I make certain adjustments as to how I play

the thing. To paraphrase Shakespeare,... to play is the thing, so I play

the JTV thing. Tomorrow, it might be my Gibson.

[MiroslavKloud]

The technique of playing on a string E6 on my JTV not exist.

Only when connected a piezo E6 to input A5 - then the E6 is fine. Why?

The problem is not in my technique.

[psarkissian]

E6 input needs to go to the E6 piezo or strings 5 and 6 won't process correctly.

Putting E6 piezo in A5's input only masks the problem,... it doesn't solve it.

 

But other audio artifacts may show up when you do that.

 

That's why it only appears to work. I can't go into the processor aspects of it.

 

 

And BTW,... from what I've heard in the audio clips, your playing is fine.

 

[MiroslavKloud]

I say again, E6 and A5 have entirely same mechanical problem. (The A5 is worse).

I write "problem", but rather it's a feature/attribute.

Yet A5 is fine.

[Charlie_Watt]

Swapping the connection between E and A is a perfectly good way to figure out where the problem lies!  Line 6 techs should know this.  It's basic troubleshooting.  MiroslavKloud's data says the problem is in the electronics.

[MiroslavKloud]

The originator of the problem is mechanical (Longitudinal wave). Electronics must eliminate this problem.

On A5 string this works.

[cruisinon2]

E6 input needs to go to the E6 piezo or strings 5 and 6 won't process correctly.

Putting E6 piezo in A5's input only masks the problem,... it doesn't solve it.

 

But other audio artifacts may show up when you do that.

 

That's why it only appears to work. I can't go into the processor aspects of it.

 

Gotta hand it to you. Your commitment to dancing around the issue is unwavering. Makes my feet hurt just reading this.

 

He never suggested swapping the wires as a solution to the problem, and anyone reading this thread knows that. So raising the spectre that doing so might cause additional problems, really serves no purpose. He never said: "Here's the answer folks! Just swap couple of wires and all will be right with the world.". It's troubleshooting, and a perfectly legitimate means of demonstrating that the issue is in the electronics. Everyone knows that, too. Continuing to blame it on the set-up sounds less feasible each time it's repeated.

[psarkissian]

The electronics have been eliminated as a source, because the electronics

have been replaced, therefore something mechanical is left as the source.

 

In the mechanical aspects,...

Could be the strings, if the butt end is not snug in, or not tight at the tuning post,

breaking angle of the string from the nut to the post, the nut slots, fret buzz,...

any mechanical buzz will come out of the electronics as distortion (amplitude

or frequency). Pick-up height not set correctly, induces warbling, which induces

a host of other related audio artifacts into the final signal.

 

[MiroslavKloud]

After eleven weeks in a repair shop...??

A cause - longitudinal wave.

Solutions - firmware.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longitudinal_wave

[clay-man]

Thank you, I wanted to show this to someone before, but I forgot what it was called. Longitudinal wave.

 

I believe this is the problem that causes the clank noises, and the problem is the worst on the 6th string.

 

Here is an article by Line 6 talking about how they were developing ways to exterminate the problem in the (then) upcoming JTV guitars:

http://blog.line6.com/2010/piezo-pickups-the-heart-of-the-matter/

 

It says the piezos and DSP work together to eliminate the clank noise problem, so in a sense, it really is the piezo's fault. They're probably putting in piezos that don't cut it for the job, again, bringing up the point: QUALITY CONTROL ON THE PIEZOS.

 

So, I think the issue varies from guitar to guitar. Some guitars are normal, some have the plink, some more than others, others to unbearable extents.

 

Some get it from playing normally, some get it from palm muting.

 

For me, I say my guitar falls into the realm of, somewhat being there, but not bad. It's noticeable when you focus, but I do think that tone is part of the tone of modeled guitars, as most guitars have more clank on the 6th string than the other strings.

Problem being is that, in some of these guitars, they're overexaggerated.

[Kwendling]

I have the exact same problems, 2 jtv 89s. 6th string sounds awful, plainly and almost harmonic overtone in Most models, especially Spank and Lester. I did the same test with switching the piezo connection on 5th and 6th string. Then, 6th string was fine, 5th string then had the awful sound. This means both the mechanics of the 6th string were fine, as was the piezo on the 6th. I'm sorry, Line 6 technician, but your argument that if the electronics were replaced than the issue can't be with the electronics is ridiculous. You could only make that statement if you took the electronics out of a known-working guitar, and put into a second guitar, and the 2nd one still did not work. if you replace defective electronics with more defective electronics, that does not prove anything. That's like saying you changed a flat tire, but put on a different flat tire and then say the bumpy ride can't be the tire, I replaced the tire. Admit there is a problem. Your customers will be much more likely to remain customers, if you can admit it and state you are working on a solution. If not, you will lose customers at an alarming rate.

[cruisinon2]

So, I think the issue varies from guitar to guitar. Some guitars are normal, some have the plink, some more than others, others to unbearable extents.

 

Some get it from playing normally, some get it from palm muting.

 

Interesting article. And I think you're right. Obviously it affects some guitars and not others, and frankly I don't think that even L6 knows why. If they did, it would have been rectified by now, if for no other reason than to shut us all up. It would also explain why some users have attempted to have the same guitar fixed multiple times with no luck, and why replacing components doesn't always seem to be the answer.

 

What's really disappointing however, is not that some of these guitars seemingly can't be fixed, but rather that the default response is to blame the set-up.

 

If ya don't know what the cause really is, or you know but don't have a reliable, universal fix...just say so. It'll sting a little, but at least it would be honest.

[clay-man]

Interesting article. And I think you're right. Obviously it affects some guitars and not others, and frankly I don't think that even L6 knows why. If they did, it would have been rectified by now, if for no other reason than to shut us all up. It would also explain why some users have attempted to have the same guitar fixed multiple times with no luck, and why replacing components doesn't always seem to be the answer.

 

What's really disappointing however, is not that some of these guitars seemingly can't be fixed, but rather that the default response is to blame the set-up.

 

If ya don't know what the cause really is, or you know but don't have a reliable, universal fix...just say so. It'll sting a little, but at least it would be honest.

 

Yeah, it pissed me off when my 2 JTV replacements had the problem more prominently. It was such a bad decision. The first guitar I had was perfect. I should of asked the question on here before returning it, but I was too scared of not being able to return it if I played it too much.

[Geamala]

Yeah, it pissed me off when my 2 JTV replacements had the problem more prominently. It was such a bad decision. The first guitar I had was perfect. I should of asked the question on here before returning it, but I was too scared of not being able to return it if I played it too much.

Ouch! That sucks.

 

So anyone got a solution to this yet? I'm going to be sending my guitar to the servicer very soon. I will request them to confirm that they can reproduce the problem I am having with it and for them not to return it until it is actually fixed and working as intended.

[cruisinon2]

Ouch! That sucks.

 

So anyone got a solution to this yet? I'm going to be sending my guitar to the servicer very soon. I will request them to confirm that they can reproduce the problem I am having with it and for them not to return it until it is actually fixed and working as intended.

I'm not convinced there is a universal solution. Nor am I convinced that there is one universal cause for the symptoms. If I'm right, it helps to explain why a fix has proved to be so elusive. If you can't sufficiently isolate a problem, or it could have one or more of 9 different causes, a standard remedy will be hard to come by...if not impossible. Sometimes that's just how life works. Hell, it's difficult to keep a "normal" guitar from making noise you don't want to hear...60-cycle hum, fret buzz, dirty toggle switches, creaky tremolo springs, etc etc. And these guitars have a lot more than that going on. "The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to clog the drain" - Capt. Montgomery Scott ;).

 

The evidence clearly suggests that some guitars have/acquire this disease, and others don't. If anyone knew why, or had a legit fix for afflicted instruments, we'd all know about it by now. Cross your fingers and hope it gets fixed...seems that's about all you can do.

[psarkissian]

Longitudinal wave,... or any wave for that matter, is produced

mechanically. It holds to the rules of Newtonian mechanics.

Firmware is not the solution, firmware is not mechanical.

 

If the Model sounds the way it does, it's because the guitar

it's modeled from sounds that way. That what Modeling is.

 

 

If firmware was the solution, then everyone would have this

problem on every JTV that is out there.

 

 

 

For more on waves, for those who are curious,... "Physics of Waves"

by Elmore and Heath.

 

For those curious about Modeling,.... check out Julius Orion Smith III,

CCRMA at Stanford University,... https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/

... he teaches this stuff.

[MiroslavKloud]

The 5th string is okay. Why ?! Why ?! Why ?!

 

Cause of the problem is only one. Different intensity, maybe a little different frequencies, but the cause is one - longitudinal wave. Longitudinal wave is on 6th string, longitudinal wave is on 5th string.

The 5th string is fine just because the FIRMWARE.

[silverhead]

Everyone is using the same firmware. Everyone has a different physical guitar. The vast majority of users don't have this problem. Hence the cause of the problem must be in the guitar itself; mechanical or electrical - not firmware.

[cruisinon2]

Everyone is using the same firmware. Everyone has a different physical guitar. The vast majority of users don't have this problem. Hence the cause of the problem must be in the guitar itself; mechanical or electrical - not firmware.

If the noise can be made to hop from one string to another just be moving wires around, it ain't mechanical...

[silverhead]

Perhaps the wire then?

[psarkissian]

Not so crusinon2,.... the piezos go to assigned points to feed signal lines

specific for that string. As I said before,... haven't solved the problem, but

only masked it.

 

Since the bridge (and the piezos along with) it were replaced, then it's not the

piezos. Since the main circuit board was replaced,... then it's not that either.

 

The wave is mechanically generated,... the electronics is just making it more

noticeable. Job of Modeling is to Model an instrument, not remove mechanically

generated audio artifacts injected into the signal. For that, the set-up and

other mechanical aspect have to be dealt with.

 

silverhead,... yeah, at one point I thought that possible too until the bridge (and its

piezos) were replaced. Good call though, on the ball as usual.

 

Something is getting into the wave before it hits the piezo. And the electronics is

just bringing out more. Need to find the source,... not the affect.

[cruisinon2]

Not so crusinon2,.... the piezos go to assigned points to feed signal lines

specific for that string. As I said before,... haven't solved the problem, but

only masked it.

 

 

OK, so there are discrete channels each carrying the signal from an individual piezo, yes? So if you then swap two wires, those signals might be in the "wrong" place, but that in and of itself does not explain why the offending noise is then somehow piggybacked on top of a different pitch. How does re-routing the piezo signal to a different channel manage to separate the offending wave from the pitch with which it originates? Just doesn't seem to make sense.

 

And yes, I understand this is not a "solution"...it was never offered as such, but rather as a means of troubleshooting the problem.

[psarkissian]

"And yes, I understand this is not a "solution"...it was never offered as such,

but rather as a means of troubleshooting the problem"--- yes, very good. Nice

troubleshooting tool, up to a point.

 

Still, need to find the source and not the affect. And that's upstream of the piezo,

not downstream. If it were the piezo, the problem would've gone away when the

bridge was replaced.

 

As for why swapping wires changes things,... that would get into inner processes

I can't talk about, beyond what I've already said on the subject.