3.71 presets sound different ???

[PaulTBaker]

This probably should go under the "all in my head" category, but I was wondering if anyone else thought their presets sound a little different after upgrading to 3.71.  I have the Helix floor and the Stomp XL.  I have not updated the Stomp yet, so I don't know if I will get the same results there or not.

 

My drive patches seem to sound more fizzy... like the drive was turned up.

 

Has anyone else had this happen?  thanks.

[theElevators]

Any changes to your global settings?  Like output levels for your  1/4” for example?

[silverhead]

A firmware update restores all Global Settings to factory defaults. You can restore them (and only them if you want) from your backup file.

[theElevators]

Also sounds like the global eq changed.  

[PaulTBaker]

good points guys, thank you.  I will check that, however I did do a backup recovery (or whatever it is called).  I would have thought that would have brought back all the global settings, but I will check.  Thanks!

[silverhead]

Yes, a full Restore from Backup should have restored all Global Settings, except it may also have turned OFF the Global EQ. Try turning it back on.

[RJKole]

I am having the same problem. May i point to my posting here

 

I wonder how the opener has solved his problem.

 

[PaulTBaker]

Not sure that I "solved" my problem.  It must have been in my head because honestly, I had forgotten about it until I saw this post :).  Maybe I have just gotten used to it by now!

 

Good luck to you!

[uburoibob2]

For me, when I update the system, and the updater automatically restores all my settings (either on my Helix Rack or my HX Stomp), it restores everything EXCEPT my Global EQ. To do that quickly, you can go to RESTORE FROM BACKUP (selecting the backup you made BEFORE you updated the system - not the backup it makes when you are updating) in HX Edit and restore ONLY the GLOBAL SETTINGS. The restore is VERY quick, and voila, your GLOBAL EQ is restored to its former glory!

[silverhead]

On 2/13/2024 at 4:16 AM, BryanEdwards said:

Any update?

Update on what, exactly?

[theElevators]

On 2/13/2024 at 4:16 AM, BryanEdwards said:

Any update?

sounds like you need to re-restore your global settings, otherwise your global EQ is reset to the default. 

[PaulTBaker]

I keep the global eq off.  and checking it after the update, it was still off.

[RJKole]

Today i sat down for many hours comparing 292 with 370 using the exact same settings, same speakers, same guitar, same phrases with the same 10 different presets (from 292 and settings backup) on both firmwares, eq is OFF of corse. The recodings clearly showed a difference. 370 against 292 produces way more treble (hiss, hsss,sss) which may gives the impression of a somehow "clearer" sound, but makes certain presets sound rather like a behringer vamp then a helix . 292 sounds way warmer to me (slight lower trebble or upper mid boost), the antialiasing is there but not in the way. I do not know what Line 6 did, but 370 sounds definatly worse then 292. Too much sss hsss, shhh, certain presets sound rather flat compared to 292. 370 sounds like the signal goes through a slight final compression with a misaligned exiter. I have no idea when these "changes" have been introduced, so ill stick with 292 for now. Dont really have the nerve to try out 196 different firmwares in order just to sneak a few new effects.  For the everage or new user the difference may be not noticable,but when comparing recordings side by side you clearly notice the difference. The difference is less noticable on presets with lots of delay and reverb, but rather on tight dry presets which are supposed to sound clear. 370 seems to overdo it somehow with "fidelity" which you (i) dont really need in the studio. You may try a Strat with a Dire Straits preset in position Pickup 4 then you may know what i am talking about.

 

When i first tried 370 i immediately had the impression of beeing something not right, now i know for shure. The only positive thing about 370 i could discover soundwise was less antialiasing like descibed IIRC around 350, heights sound cleaner, but there are too many of them unfortunately.

[Schmalle]

On 4/19/2024 at 9:32 PM, RJKole said:

[...] The recodings clearly showed a difference. [...]

Mind sharing some comparison clips to convince a doubting spirit like me?

[rwandering]

I believe the original premise of this topic was: Upgrading from 3.7 to 3.7.1 sounds different.

 

It seems to have morphed into "things sound different between 2.x and 3.7.1".  I understand why somebody doesn't want to deal with redoing all of their presets, but we shouldn't be surprised that it sounds different. There are a massive number of changes implemented and I don't believe Line 6 implied "everything will sound the same".

[RJKole]

On 4/19/2024 at 9:47 PM, Schmalle said:

Mind sharing some comparison clips to convince a doubting spirit like me?

Judge yourself. Just a few tones, 3 Samples , each 292 followed by 370. 1. Factory 1-001 , 2. Some Dire Straits patch from somewhere , 3. Factory 1-072.
In my ears 370 sounds much flatter, crackling and shrill,  290 richer, warmer and more natural.  https:/rjkole.com/p_temp/Helix.wav
All samples have been normalized.

 

Ok, 370 to 371, my mistake, but may be interesting how things change sometimes.

 

[theElevators]

different EQ.  check your global EQ.

 

I've been using the Helix since 2.8 and never had any sound changes during an upgrade. 

[Schmalle]

On 4/19/2024 at 11:44 PM, RJKole said:

Judge yourself. Just a few tones, 3 Samples , each 292 followed by 370. 1. Factory 1-001 , 2. Some Dire Straits patch from somewhere , 3. Factory 1-072.
In my ears 370 sounds much flatter, crackling and shrill,  290 richer, warmer and more natural.  https:/rjkole.com/p_temp/Helix.wav
All samples have been normalized.

 

Ok, 370 to 371, my mistake, but may be interesting how things change sometimes.

 

I appreciate the time you put into uploading a clip. The clip made me more convinced that there is no or negligible audible difference between said firmware versions.

[datacommando]

On 4/19/2024 at 10:44 PM, RJKole said:

Judge yourself. Just a few tones, 3 Samples , each 292 followed by 370. 1. Factory 1-001 , 2. Some Dire Straits patch from somewhere , 3. Factory 1-072.
In my ears 370 sounds much flatter, crackling and shrill,  290 richer, warmer and more natural.  https:/rjkole.com/p_temp/Helix.wav
All samples have been normalized.

 

Ok, 370 to 371, my mistake, but may be interesting how things change sometimes.

 

 

Hi, 

 

If you are going to do tone comparisons, then you have to play the identical scale, riff, chord progression, phrase or whatever by recording it absolutely dry, and then playing that example, back through the various presets you wish to compare. Your example doesn't comply with the reference standard. By comparing the audio waveforms it is clear that the second set of examples are played differently.

 

Furthermore, you specified that you are doing a straight up comparison between firmware v2.92 and v.3.70. Not sure how you are trying to do that because there were major changes to the Cab Engine in firmware v.3.5. Also, the Factory 1 Preset 001 Essex A30 in the latest firmware uses the new Cabinet models whereas previous versions has the old 2x12 cabinets. Factory 1 Preset 072 Felix Engl is a totally different from whatever it is you have supplied in your example file. Your "Dire Straits preset from somewhere" is meaningless - we have no point of reference to check against. It is also recommended that when you change Firmware versions you should rebuild all the presets and perform a Factory Reset to bring all the presets into line with the currently installed firmware. You don't mention doing any of these things?

 

You comment - "I have no idea when these "changes" have been introduced, so I'll stick with 292 for now. Don't really have the nerve to try out 196 different firmwares in order just to sneak a few new effects".

 

Well those changes were made to satisfy the requests of many, many users and I don't understand where you get the idea that you have to load "196 different firmwares" - you don't - firmware updates are incremental, stuff keeps being added therefore you only need to load the latest iteration to have everything available.

 

I have to agree with @Schmalle that any sonic differences in your wav are negligible and since the changes to the Cab Engine it would seem the majority of Helix users are very happy with the improvements made to the unit overall. You appear to be in a minority, but if you perform an audio comparison test properly and don't normalise the capture, check the waveforms, you may find that you have simply entered the realms of audio "cork sniffing", and it's all an illusion usually only available to bats.

 

If I were you I would do a factory reset and rebuild the presets, and if you still don't like what you hear you can stay at FWv.2.92 in your own sonic isolation booth.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

[RJKole]

Hello, thanks for the reply and beeing so detailed,

 

You are absolutely right i should have went the steps you mentiend for a better comparison, but as mentioned earlier, the first time after i installed 370 starting with my own presets i noticed right away that something sounds different, thats why i did all this.

I indeed loaded the 292 presets into 370, made factory resets and rebuilt presets, i even did that a couple of times to be shure, didnt i mention ? My guess was also the 3.50 changes were responsible for the unit sounding different (for my ears), what i read about it on the firmware pages seems to explain things to me. I am shurely not intended of convincing people, its just something that i noticed. I may have an over sensitive hearing, i am glad the majority of users likes it the way it sounds now and i am also glad that we have the possibility to go back to an earlier firmware so everyone can be satisfied with the product.  Ive been more then satisfied with the Helix ever since, so theres no reason for me to make the product bad. If i sounded arrogant or rude, i apologize. Not easy as a foreign user to bring things properly over in an english forum.

 

@Schmalle

I appreciate the time you put into uploading a clip. The clip made me more convinced that there is no or negligible audible difference between said firmware versions.
I may not should have done this. Each human has a different hearing, ask 100 people for 200 different answers. I mainly was pointing to the upper heights that come out too sharp in my ears . Thats why i (homorous) mentioned Behringer ;-)

[Schmalle]

On 4/21/2024 at 4:15 PM, RJKole said:

@Schmalle

I appreciate the time you put into uploading a clip. The clip made me more convinced that there is no or negligible audible difference between said firmware versions.
I may not should have done this. Each human has a different hearing, ask 100 people for 200 different answers. I mainly was pointing to the upper heights that come out too sharp in my ears . Thats why i (homorous) mentioned Behringer ;-)

I got that. I couldn't hear a clear difference in high end response - some notes on the old fw seemed sharper, some on the new - I didn't hear evidence that would hint at a difference in fw specific sound. If you'd have used the exact same test input for both fw versions the comparison would have much higher significance because that would exclude the human error i.e. hitting notes the exact same way.

 

I'm totally open to accept the claim that fw versions sound different btw - I'm just not convinced.

 

When you compare stuff make sure to exclude your bias. When you present evidence that isn't convincing to others your own confidence should go down. Producing good A/B comparisons isn't trivial or easy. As a thought experiment: How would you design a test that would be compelling to a skeptical guy like me?

 

 

[datacommando]

On 4/21/2024 at 3:15 PM, RJKole said:

My guess was also the 3.50 changes were responsible for the unit sounding different (for my ears), what i read about it on the firmware pages seems to explain things to me.

 

Hi,

 

A few things to remember about the improvements in the Helix are, the main Core operating system of the Helix range of products was modified at version 2.80 of the firmware, and since that time many improvements have been made to the audio with almost every update since, including v.3.10 which included - Quote:-  "Oversampling has been increased across the board, resulting in higher fidelity, fewer aliasing artifacts, and smoother decay trails, especially when running multiple distortion stages or with higher gain tones. Many people might not notice a difference, but those highly sensitive to aliasing will appreciate 3.10's smoother response. Amp and effects models have been optimized to accommodate these improvements without increasing DSP usage." Then at version 3.50 the new Cab Engine was introduced and brought in the option of movable microphone positions. Also in v3.60 a few of the 3.50 factory presets were updated to utilize 3.60 cabs where appropriate, and 3.70 added yet more updated cabinets.

 

If you check the settings for the original (legacy) speaker cabinets you will find that the all default settings have Low Cut set at 80Hz and a High Cut at 8.0kHz and on all the new cabinets the default settings are 'Off". You might find your tones are made slightly warmer by rolling off some of the higher frequencies, as generally with a guitar speaker there is not much happening above 5 or 6kHz.

 

These updates are not done on a whim, but are generally well researched and user asked for improvements, plus I have been using my Helix since late 2015 and I have no complaints - it just keeps getting better.

 

Hope this helps/makes sense.

 

Hallo,

 

Ein paar Dinge, die Sie bei den Verbesserungen im Helix im Hinterkopf behalten sollten, sind, dass das Haupt-Core-Betriebssystem der Helix-Produktreihe in Version 2.80 der Firmware geändert wurde und seitdem mit fast jedem Update viele Verbesserungen am Audio vorgenommen wurden , einschließlich Version 3.10, die Folgendes enthielt: Zitat: „Das Oversampling wurde insgesamt erhöht, was zu einer höheren Wiedergabetreue, weniger Aliasing-Artefakten und weicheren Abklingspuren führt, insbesondere beim Betrieb mehrerer Verzerrungsstufen oder mit höheren Gain-Tönen. Vielen Leuten ist das vielleicht nicht so.“ Man merkt einen Unterschied, aber diejenigen, die sehr empfindlich auf Aliasing reagieren, werden die sanftere Reaktion von 3.10 zu schätzen wissen. Verstärker- und Effektmodelle wurden optimiert, um diese Verbesserungen zu berücksichtigen, ohne die DSP-Nutzung zu erhöhen. Dann wurde mit Version 3.50 die neue Cab Engine eingeführt und die Option beweglicher Mikrofonpositionen eingeführt. Außerdem wurden in Version 3.60 einige der 3.50-Werksvoreinstellungen aktualisiert, um gegebenenfalls 3.60-Boxen zu verwenden, und 3.70 fügte noch weitere aktualisierte Boxen hinzu.

 

Wenn Sie die Einstellungen für die ursprünglichen (älteren) Lautsprecherboxen überprüfen, werden Sie feststellen, dass in allen Standardeinstellungen Low Cut auf 80 Hz und High Cut auf 8,0 kHz eingestellt ist und dass bei allen neuen Boxen die Standardeinstellungen „Off“ sind Möglicherweise werden Ihre Töne etwas wärmer, wenn einige der höheren Frequenzen abgeschwächt werden, da bei einem Gitarrenlautsprecher im Allgemeinen oberhalb von 5 oder 6 kHz nicht viel passiert.

 

Diese Aktualisierungen erfolgen nicht aus einer Laune heraus, sondern sind im Allgemeinen gut recherchiert und werden von Benutzern um Verbesserungen gebeten. Außerdem verwende ich mein Helix seit Ende 2015 und ich habe keine Beschwerden – es wird einfach immer besser.

 

Ich hoffe, das hilft/macht Sinn.

[PaulTBaker]

Wow, lots of really good comments here.  Thanks.  Just following up.  So it sounds like there may have been slight differences and it was ALL in my head..... however, the bottom line is I am very very happy with what I have now.  I absolutely love it.  
 

Just for background if anyone is interested, I play mainly my tele and can go from very clean to dirty clean to crunchy to more hairy overdrive (not metal but more warm bluesy full overdriven state).  I used to use the Zed amp as a base and then have 3 stomps (one to up the amp drive and adjust volume, the Minataur(sp?), and either the Temo or the Compul drive.
 

with the latest update, I started using the Clarity as a starting point.  It is really clean and has a ton of headroom and stays clean.   I then use combinations of stacking the Prize Drive, the Teemah! and the Horizon Drive to get the different levels of overdrive I need.  it is great!  at least for me!  I also use snapshots to switch between modulation effects:  Chorus, Trem, 145 Rotary, Script Mod Phase, and no modulation.  I have those 5 snaps assigned to one footswitch so I can roll through each of those and turn on the one I need.  I also have a snapshot that I use for spacey sounds which turns on the chorus, delay, and another reverb.  I used the command center to assign that to a foot switch that rotated between the spacy and the clean.  Unchecking the snapshot option on the drives and amp lets me keep my tone the same no matter the other snapshots.

 

I am sure there are improvements, but this works great for me now and gives me a ton of options.

Clar PzTH DD C .hlx