Stadium Will have a real Cab emulation?

[Niksounds]

For me this is the last key to reach fully the reality.

A detailed emulation of interaction of Dynamic of Cab, the Cab and mic.

Not a little distortion or minor added placebo things.

But a REAL modelization of speaker behaviour, Cab ..mics air and so on.

The static ir leave us under the water..It sounds good..but not as real micked Cab.

My 2 cents.

[silverhead]

A ‘REAL modelization’ is an oxymoron. By definition a cab model is not a real cab. All Line 6 models, including the new cab engine and models in Helix are captured from real physical amps/cabs/FX pedals. They represent the current state of the art which will never be identical to the physical thing. But the current state of the art is very good, such that many models can’t be distinguished from the real thing in blind tests.

 

Whether the cab models in Helix Stadium, based on the new Aguora modeling technology, sound ‘real’ to you will be determined by your perception of the sound. Nobody can answer your question except you when the time comes. Certainly not now.

[datacommando]

On 6/14/2025 at 11:07 AM, Niksounds said:

For me this is the last key to reach fully the reality.

A detailed emulation of interaction of Dynamic of Cab, the Cab and mic.

Not a little distortion or minor added placebo things.

But a REAL modelization of speaker behaviour, Cab ..mics air and so on.

The static ir leave us under the water..It sounds good..but not as real micked Cab.

My 2 cents.

 

Hi,

 

Well this is a really flawed argument before it even starts. 

 

Sticking any IR, or modelled cabinet, into a signal chain is never going to be real simply because of the very definition of "model"or "impulse response".

 

My issue is, I'm a studio rat, and consequently the only real speakers involved in anything I do are my Kali Audio IN-8 V2 studio monitors, situated just over a metre away from each of my ears. Subsequently, anything that I have recorded using this set up will be burned onto a CD, or ported to a flash drive, and listened to in another environment, such as in a car, on a domestic hi-fi system, or whatever, and if is sounds good compared to commercially available audio productions, then that's good enough for me. I say that because in many recording studios that create the original audio that you eventually hear on CD, or some streaming device, it will have been made in a very similar fashion to the one I described - an audio engineer sitting in a control room listening to the mic'ed up guitar, bass cab (even a Helix, or whatever) through some studio monitors.

 

What I'm getting at is, if you are using your Helix, with either an IR, or one of the newer cab models, and that final audio is output to a mono 12inch speaker in a wooden box, then it will bear no comparison to what I would hear from the same signal chain. Speakers are the final link in the chain of getting the audio out through the air between the cone and your ears. The tone will only be as good as that last link in the chain, even headphones.

 

Playing live will be a very different experience, but the same applies - put any great audio signal through some cheapo small speakers and it will more than likely not sound very good. 

 

As noted by @silverhead in the post above, ‘REAL modelization’ is an oxymoron.

 

Having said all that - in Eric's keynote speech at the launch of the Helix Stadium he does state that the new Agoura system it uses, allows the cab models to interact more dynamically with the amp model for a somewhat more real experience. I have not heard any audio examples of this new stuff, so it remains to be seen/heard how convincing this is, because every release of every update on any modelling platform (Helix, ToneX, AxeFX, et al) has claimed it is the most realistic recreation ever.

Yeah, right. You want real - buy an amp and speaker cab and stick a mic in front - Note: you will probably need an audio engineer to make sound like it does on a recording.

 

Hope this helps makes sense.

 

 

[rd2rk]

As I understand it (minimally), there's a "push-pull" relationship between the speaker and an amp's output transformer called the "Speaker Impedance Curve" (SIC).

 

Helix amps have a baked-in SIC that does not vary with the cab/speaker choice? Stadium will have a more realistic simulation of this interaction.

 

This is something that the Fractal kids have had for years, and is also implemented in Fender's Tone Master Pro.

 

IDK if it's a TONE thing or a FEEL thing. If anybody here has a Fractal, please chime in!

[Lelik]

Just my opinion: in the Helix, each amp model includes a built-in speaker impedance curve based on its default speaker simulation. This curve stays the same no matter which IR or cab sim you use after the amp. So, there is always a speaker impedance curve influencing the typical dynamics of the amp-speaker interaction, even if it’s fixed.

If the new Stadium uses a speaker impedance curve that adapts to every amp and speaker combination, it might offer a more “realistic” simulation. But — again, just my opinion — that doesn’t necessarily mean it will feel more like playing a real amp.

 

[rd2rk]

On 6/30/2025 at 10:06 AM, Lelik said:

that doesn’t necessarily mean it will feel more like playing a real amp

 

And if you've never played through the real amp in the first place...

 

This is one of those "If a tree falls in the forest..." things that people on forums will fight to the death over while the rest of us play our guitars.

[Schmalle]

Here are some electrical phenomena that change the tone of an amp + cab pair:

If you switch from open back to closed back there is a pretty noticable shift in the bass resonance and depth. A closed cabinet dampens the speaker movement which makes it behave different electrically (the impedance curve changes).

The difference between a 4 Ohm and 16 Ohm wiring in the same 4x12 cab is also pretty noticable. Same with parallel vs serial wiring in a 2x12 cab.

Then there are resonances in the lower mids in some cabs' impedance curves that change the feel (that aren't in the IR).

 

Also the dimensions of the voice coil (the inductance) affects where the in the mids the impedance starts to rise. 

 

Lastly(?) there are magnetic saturation effects happening in a speaker's magnet when pushed (really) hard. 

 

How much this affects the tone depends on the amp. Different tube amps have different levels of negative feedback which is the amp's circuit section that mitigates the impedance curve's effect on the tone. Since Depth (Resonance) and Presence are feedback controls these can also sound different with different cabs.

 

In summary changing a cab changes an amp's electrical behavior because the cab is part of the electrical circuit. There is a lot going on in a tube power amp - cab system. How and how much changing a cab changes the tone - well - depends.

 

[Digital_Igloo]

Whether Line 6 or another company makes significant headway in speaker emulation technology, I guarantee 95% of people will utilize it through the wrong playback system and/or have wrong expectations, absolutely nothing will change, and complaints will continue.

 

For better or worse, this is a knowledge/experience/nuance issue, not a technology issue... unless said technology gets to the point where we can literally transmit to one's brainstem and bypass their playback system, acoustic environment, and ears.

[psarkissian]

In physical world, studio mic'ing for recording, vs live mic'ing for a PA system or FOH, vs live mic'ing for recording live shows is very nuanced. 

Knowing the venue, environment and what it is you looking to get out of it,... knowing the situation is key.

 

Been trying out different 4x12 cabs and different scenarios with the unit on my bench,... playing thru it, felt like 1975-79 at the Starwood,

doing sound or lights for Iron Butterfly all over again. Pretty damn good. 

 

"Ears",... people say I have bat hearing,... probably true. (LOL)

Keep up the good work Digital_Igloo. 

 

[Niksounds]

From the replies, I realize I expressed myself poorly. Because I know full well that a microphone setup will never sound like an in-room amp. Not even analog. =) I was only talking about microphone setup, because there's still a gap between a REAL microphone setup and a static IR setup. So I was asking if the MIC'd speaker will be MODELED.

[datacommando]

On 7/14/2025 at 10:33 AM, Niksounds said:

So I was asking if the MIC'd speaker will be MODELED.

Uh? And what exactly do you think is in the Helix right now?

 

All New Cab Engine/New Cabs in 3.50

 

[rd2rk]

On 7/14/2025 at 3:33 AM, Niksounds said:

From the replies, I realize I expressed myself poorly. Because I know full well that a microphone setup will never sound like an in-room amp. Not even analog. =) I was only talking about microphone setup, because there's still a gap between a REAL microphone setup and a static IR setup. So I was asking if the MIC'd speaker will be MODELED.

 

IRs (IMPULSE RESPONSES - the CABS in Helix) are how mic'd cabs (speakers) are modeled.

There's a difference between FAR FIELD IRs (FFIR) and NEAR FIELD IRs (NFIR), and some people who have Golden Ears claim to be able to tell the difference (I can't), but it's not a big enough difference to convince IR vendors to adopt the much more difficult to record FFIRs. The VAST majority of commercially available IRs are NFIRs.

 

If you're referring to an ANALOG CAB MODEL, they are basically static EQ settings. Most people prefer IRs, but when well done, are just fine for most LIVE work.

The audience at Joe's Dive Bar and G ill can't tell the difference and, if you're doing your job right, they're too drunk to care ;-)

[craiganderton]

It all depends on what someone thinks is ideal, doesn't it? I went to solid-state FRFR systems in the late 60s because I felt tubes/amps were limiting. This was when I was gigging 200-300 days out of the year, and just maintaining aging tubes was a problem. FRFR systems made it much easier to have a consistent sound from venue to venue, especially because I could feed a PA directly for really large venues (no need to mic an amp, which was always fraught).

 

Miking cabs is an art, that's certainly true. But so much of what miking does is simply vary time, phase, and frequency response relationships. We can vary all of those now using signal processing techniques, with more flexibility and precision compared to moving a mic (virtual or physical).

 

I do like cranking an amp at home from time to time :) But for the studio or live performance, being able to create presets with every nuance I want is ideal. Of course, that doesn't mean it's ideal for everyone's needs and/or tastes.