zooey

Sorry, reality/irony impaired here, as you were (;-)

Not sure what you guys are on about with whether the audio in that vid is from that actual video shoot or not. They definitely did gig a lot in Japan in the 60s and later, and they put out a Live in Japan record that I had at the time. I just put the 1994 CD of it on right now to compare, and I'm pretty much certain it's the exact same audio as the video -- listen in phones for a weird asymmetrical change of low end during the first verse, not something that happened twice I'd bet. So whether that's the video that goes with that audio or not, it's definitely them, and they did sound like that.

Yes, I played with several guys who had them back then. Decent clean bass amps, but not nice for guitar. But who knows...

The editor is NOT Helix in your computer, it's a computer remote for the Helix hardware, which still does all the actual processing. Helix Native IS Helix on your computer. It does all the audio processing itself, no Helix hardware needed. In that respect it's like Amplitube, Scuffham, S-Gear, etc, a guitar and bass amp and fx sim plugin you can use in your DAW, without having a Helix there.

This is a very interesting development, nice move, Line 6. Although personally, I'm a big Scuffham and Amplitube fan, so I've already got software sims I like, and it's easy to get Helix audio into a computer if I want the specific sounds it does. I got a Helix more as as a robust live and jamming rig that DOESN'T require a computer. So I don't mean to seem ungrateful, and I won't be surprised if I end up with Helix Native at some point, but what would REALLY excite me is going the other way, Helix running native plugins. Not going to happen, so there's that, but if it did, it'd change the world, bang. Absent that Neverland, opening up Helix to third party developers by providing an SDK would also seriously rock the industry. Can't wait, except I have to, probably forever.

Foot controller, edit controller, audio interface, multiple switchable loops, headphone amp, external DSP multiplier, and probably other stuff I'm not thinking of offhand.

Just to say it, headphones will be different from everything else, different phones from each other, different FRFR speakers from each other, guitar cabs too if you go that way. I spent a fair while only in headphones when I first got my Helix, took some time to get happy, but I really did. Then I moved to medium low-end FRFRs (Alesis 12"), and everything I'd built chewed it, hard, pretty much had to start over. So hopefully DI's advice will get you to a place where you can have fun, and start getting familiar with how to get around on Helix, and get the kinds of sounds you like, but you'll want to get decent real world monitoring as soon as you can.

Gut level, I'd be surprised if relatively minor variations in cab dimensions or materials made anywhere near as much difference as what speakers are in it.

Case in point, I'm sure they'll sound great, proving nothing ;) Really what I meant was that I wish I had more of a gut level feel for them, like you guys who've been swapping out speakers forever. Not me. Last time I changed the speakers in a guitar amp was back in high school, when I reworked the braces inside my old smaller Bassman cab so I could fit 2 JBL 15s in there. Thing screamed. But I've never played any of those Celestions, even though I know they're classics. Can you use that 50%of coupon for more than one single pack, do you think?

Difference will be subtle, and depends complete on what FX and settings and original sound, but it is different. Experiment, which is fun with everything Helix, and simple and free, once you've got the box, unlike doing a lot of this IRL.

Nice find! Wish I was more familiar with each of those speaker models, it's tough to get a handle on how they'll be in use from listening to any particular player, guitar, amp, and settings.

Big part of that sound is everyone but the drummer rotating 90 degrees at the same time, realigns the sonic molecules.

Think roscoe5 pretty much settled this, unless there's a difference in certain amps and/or cabs and not others. I doubt it, but logic and science are what they are. Unless anyone plans to test each amp and cab separately, it be great to identify specific ones roscoe5 didn't test and where someone thought they heard a difference.

Those look like Dual Showman amps, not something small like a Deluxe, so maybe try the Twin or the Bassman, maybe the Silvertone. (That's without actually trying to get that sound out of any of those models, just theoretically.) And I agree, clean that's not. Trebly, yes. Not a strat either, those are all Mosrite guitars, hot pickups, and did I mention trebly? Fun stuff. I had that Ventures Live in Japan album back in the day, didn't know there was video. Check the bass playing in the solos too.

Sonically I believe they're identical, and you can change the cab independently from the amp in either version. Separate blocks just gives you routing flexibility, to put processing between the amp and the cab.

So could someone who thought they heard a difference figure out which cab(s) that was, so they can get tested? Let's confirm or debunk this for real, if possible.

There's a free version too.

Yes, really well done John!

Thanks roscoe5, but... Presence knob is out of circuit when coming in the fx return, Resonance too. As I said before, them seem to be part of the amp sim section, not the actual power amp. Those do affect highs and lows respectively when using the ID pre and amp. I bet the idea is for presence to imitate what it does on a tube amp, which is reduce negative feedback at high frequencies, and for resonance to imitate varying speaker impedance, affecting low-end thump. Both are useful, and I wish they were pre-preset, though I also get the desire for global EQ to handle different venues and contexts. When I first tried this, the ID was in MP3 mode, because that's the default, and boy was that Wrong. Even more top end, completely gross. I think MP3 mode probably EQs that input to make the single 12" imitate a full range hi-fi speaker, as best as possible. That's the opposite of what's needed here, unless I leave the cabs/IRs on in Helix, which seems like setting up these two counteracting processes, when I'd rather just skip both, and try playing through the ID as a guitar cab. If I'm not mistaken, you've enjoyed playing Helix through guitar cabs, without an IRs except maybe maybe one of those impedence-match ones. In any case, I'm not 100% certain, but my initial tries probably did have the Helix cabs/IRs on (along with MP3 mode), because that's how I normally run. I know you're suggesting coming out of the Helix phones output, but AFAIK, that's still flat response, no different tonally than the regular 1/4" outs, don't see how that'd improve anything.

Guess the ID is tuned for that particular speaker, or vice versa. Far as I know, 4CM is less common with another modeler than for instance a tube amp. There are getting to be more and more modeling rigs with a built-in guitar speaker these days though, be interesting to see how this plays out with different ones. I've never tried real 4CM. What I just tried was ultra-simple, just the ID power amp and speaker w Helix front end, should be a pretty basic comparison. I can't see having a rig as expensive as Helix just for FX, and the ID notwithstanding, before this I've been having a blast with Helix in full mic'ed-amp-sim mode, so we'll see how this resolves for me over time. Really not sure what I'd want for a collection of patches if I had the Helix and ID universes both available. You only need one of those for a healthy dose of option paralysis, but both?!?

Not going in the front end. As I said, Helix was plugged into the power amp in/effects return, bypassing everything in the ID except the power amp and speaker. Even the ID's presence and resonance controls were out of circuit; they must be attached to its amp sim section, not the actual power amp. So really this seems to be about differences between the ID preamp/amp sim and my settings for their counterparts in Helix. And I did try leaving the cab/IRs there at first, pretty muffled and low-end-y, as I'd expect, since there's a real guitar cab in play too, not an FRFR setup.

Yeah. But it still seems like a bigger deal than a pretty small combo, more pretentious, or something, in that informal scaled-down world. I've been using short speaker stands for the FRFRs too, about head height, but I suppose I'd want something to get a combo off my ankles too. In my "studio", it's up on a stool, but I don't want to carry that, need to look around, if I decide I want to pursue this further.

Spent some time over the past few days playing through my Blackstar ID:60, which I hadn't done almost at all since Helix. Overall tones were pretty cool actually, reminded me of why I got it. Very "solid" sounding, for lack of a better word, and natural, with really nice semi-driven tones, though I wouldn't call it exactly warm. Noticeably well controlled low end, doesn't flub out out easily, even with overdrive. Quite a bit of variability too, between the different preamp and power amp models, the ISF control, and the channel EQ. (Per patch, you get only bass-mid-treble, but it's quite effective and useful.) Of course it doesn't have about a gazillion software and hardware features that Helix has, the EQ and FX are very basic, and the UI on the amp itself isn't great. Another big negative for me practically speaking is that on the amp itself, you can't name patches, or see the names you give them in the editor. But still, as a one piece plug and go, not too shabby at all. Made me think about using just Helix into it, 4 cable method. Helix + 12" combo -- potentially back to a one-trip load-in, plus I'd feel less like a jerk showing up to a living room jam with that than my current medium-small PA. Helix would provide way better footswitching than the ID's 4 button thing (which is elegantly dense, but kind of a pain), allow Helix's fx pre and/or post the amp, and let me use Helix or ID amps or both. Just the one cab in play though, for everything. Don't think typical 4CM setups involve an amp that itself has 128 presets. Would be quite a project to build out your patches, or even decide what they should be, between the ID and Helix. Yowza. Weird thing: Plugged my Helix into the ID's power amp in, just to try it, and after pulling out the cabs or IRs, my patches consistently had too much top end, like 5k-ish. Strange, since they were built with my Alesis FRFRs, which I find kind of bright, and the ID is a single 12" only. And yes the ID:60 was in effects loop mode, not mp3. The ID itself doesn't seem too bright. Those highs weren't something I could tame with just Helix's amp controls, needed an EQ, whcih of course I could do. However, in the relatively short time I spent trying, I didn't get Helix to sound quite as straightforwardly unartificial as the ID itself. Don't doubt that it's possible though.

My understanding is that the warranty is transferable, but you need a copy of the original purchase receipt, to prove when it was originally bought.

Yeah, I just meant that Jim could add EQ in place of the bright switch the Litigator doesn't have. Which was silly, he's a smart guy, I'm sure he's aware of the possibilities.