sijan92 Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I currently own a DT25 combo and a Pod HD500X which I have connected via the Line6 Link cable. I am thinking of recording some music but the Dt25 is way too loud for my bedroom therefore I cannot mic it in high volume. Of course, if I do not crank it up, I would not get the sound I would want. The LVM is not enough for quality sound since it eliminates the power amp section of the amp. I was thinking of investing on an audio interface like the UX2 to record my music. My plan is to connect my amp to the audio interface through the Direct Out of the amp. If I follow this approach, I could disconnect the amp's connection with its cabinet so I wouldn't get any sound from the amp itself but I would get my sound from the monitors connected to the UX2. So if I have the amp's master volume amp cranked all the way up, I could adjust the volume from on my UX2 according to how I want but my recordings should sound as if it's coming from a cranked tube amp. Essentially, I would like to get the sound of a cranked tube amp sound in my recordings without disturbing my neighbors. Do you think this is a viable approach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innovine Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Won't that just destroy your output transformer? You shouldn't run the amp wiyh the speaker disconnected, it'll destroy the amp. The sound on the direct out is, I believe, a low level version of what's going to the speaker. If the speaker is silent, isn't the direct out silent too? Can't check, my amp is broken, but I think thats how it goes. There is only one way to get the sound of cranked tubes, and that is to have cranked tubes. Placing an attenuator or dummy load across the amps output can let you reduce or eliminate the loud sound, but the more you reduce it like this the more the tone gets altered too. Look into building an iso box or something, if LVM doesn't do it for you (doesn't do it for me anyway). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceatl Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Never a good idea for a tube amp...Running a tube amp without a load can burn up the output transformer. I would suggest you at least put a dummy load on the amp...A resistive load will keep the power amp loaded....But the tone will be different than with a cab... https://www.parts-express.com/8-ohm-100w-non-inductive-dummy-load-resistor--019-020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelForbin Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I hate to say it because I love using my HD500 with my DT25's... But for home recording, just go direct with the HD500. It will give you more options overall - dual amp models, cabinet options, mic options, stereo.. I get a great signal off the DT25 XLR out, it's a nice recording / live mix send for sure. But that being said, the only safe way to do what you want to do is to use a load box of some sort, in order to not destroy your amp. That power needs to go somewhere. Not sure the exact term you would search for, something like these: http://www.sweetwater.com/c1117--Attenuators_and_Simulators http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CabClone8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sijan92 Posted February 23, 2015 Author Share Posted February 23, 2015 Thank you for the feedback! So can anyone confirm that if I run the tube amp with a load box, I would be able to hear the sound of cranked power amp tubes with adjustable volume on my interface monitors? I am not sure if the Direct Out would be silent if I use the amp with load box. I know Pod HD 500 itself is an excellent device for recording but I would really like to utilize my DT25 tones in my recordings to get a richer sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 there is no safe way to run a tube amp silently. Power soaks will help to lower the volume but definitely affect tone, I know, I tried it. Not worth the effort. As mentioned above, you could build an isolation cabinet which is a sealed, soundproofed box which contains your amp and speaker. You would have your guitar cable in and the direct out but otherwise the box is sealed. It should be quiet enough but still no guarantees. If this was a simple thing to do, everyone would be doing it. It is not. Don't risk your valuable amp just for the supposed tube goodness. There are plenty of good tones available from the POD direct for recording. You gain nothing for recording purposes doing what you propose but risk destroying a great amp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceatl Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 If you want a soaker that sounds like a speaker, then get a Weber Mass...It's a speaker motor without a cone so it's basically silent... https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/mass.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtreehugger Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Thank you for the feedback! So can anyone confirm that if I run the tube amp with a load box, I would be able to hear the sound of cranked power amp tubes with adjustable volume on my interface monitors? I am not sure if the Direct Out would be silent if I use the amp with load box. I know Pod HD 500 itself is an excellent device for recording but I would really like to utilize my DT25 tones in my recordings to get a richer sound. If you just go direct out on your hd500x then you can monitor the actual tone you're recording as you record it--at any volume you like, through headphones or monitor speakers! I think the Dt amps do sound better, but you can come close with the HD, and sitting in the mix it's tough to hear the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelForbin Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Didn't Eddie Van Halen get his entire tone by slaving a Marshall head into a dummy load box? I read something along these lines: "use a dummy load box after the Marshall head, in effect making the Marshall a preamp for the entire system. The output of the load box would then run through his effects which would then be sent to the input stage of a power amplifier." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceatl Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Didn't Eddie Van Halen get his entire tone by slaving a Marshall head into a dummy load box? I read something along these lines: "use a dummy load box after the Marshall head, in effect making the Marshall a preamp for the entire system. The output of the load box would then run through his effects which would then be sent to the input stage of a power amplifier." Probably at some point...He has done just about everything you can do...I know at one time in the early days he did take a line off the head the run the FX stack...and the power for that was a SS Crown power amp as I recall...Probably several incarnations there...He intentionally mismatched the cab load on the Plexi power amp for the dry tone using a wirewound pot...basically, he added some adjustable resistance to the speaker line...It's a global tone control...impedance higher than the tap means brighter....impedance lower than the tap tends to darken some... This gets really complicated with the Variac running a lower voltage as the impedance of everything changes some with that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radatats Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Probably at some point...He has done just about everything you can do...I know at one time in the early days he did take a line off the head the run the FX stack...and the power for that was a SS Crown power amp as I recall...Probably several incarnations there...He intentionally mismatched the cab load on the Plexi power amp for the dry tone using a wirewound pot...basically, he added some adjustable resistance to the speaker line...It's a global tone control...impedance higher than the tap means brighter....impedance lower than the tap tends to darken some... This gets really complicated with the Variac running a lower voltage as the impedance of everything changes some with that... Eddie will also tell you he blew up plenty of amps along the way and discovered his variac trick by accident too. He was a hands on tinkerer (genius?) but don't extrapolate his techniques to something you can do safely at home kids! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egkor Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Back then with all-analog amps you could get away with the Variac/etc. Todays amps esp. w/ digital on board, no way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceatl Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Good job mentioning that. I sure hope no one tries a Variac on an DT running at 90 volts...Certainly that would not be a good idea...And safety is the primary concern... In terms of running a tube amp safely silent which is the topic on this thread...One can run ANY tube amplifier silent safely...You need only a dummy load to do so. Make sure that the rating of the dummy load is 4 times the amplifier rating...A properly rated resistive load is actually a bit safer for the amplifier's output transformer than real speakers are since speakers more often tend to fail to open circuit...If you plan to run your amplifier near max power, you must use a load that is at least double the rating...four times is better...Tube audio power amplifiers can actually exceed their rated output by 4 times in fast transients depending on the design...Running sustained at full power, they tend to nearly double...So that DT-25 could lay down as much as 50 watts with the master dimed...fast transients as high as 100 watts...So you use a 100 watt dummy load or attenuator on a DT-25 and you are actually safer than you are with the stock speaker by 10 watts... People that generally experienced a failure doing this are the ones that used one a dummy load(or attenuator) matched to their amplifier's output ratting and dimed the output, melted the load and wondered why their amp blew up...They just did not know any better...I think most of those guys are former hotplate users... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innovine Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 A resistive load won't sound good, though. It needs to be inductive too. The speaker has an effect on the poweramp just as the poweramp effects the speaker...that's why attenuators and dummy loads cause tonal changes due do lack of, or different inductance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceatl Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 A resistive load won't sound good, though. It needs to be inductive too. The speaker has an effect on the poweramp just as the poweramp effects the speaker...that's why attenuators and dummy loads cause tonal changes due do lack of, or different inductance. That was why I suggested a Weber Mass...It's a real speaker motor..."Reactance" is the word I think you meant...A Weber MASS has reactance...resistors do not... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtreehugger Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 That was why I suggested a Weber Mass...It's a real speaker motor..."Reactance" is the word I think you meant...A Weber MASS has reactance...resistors do not... Because speakers have coils but not capacitors, I think you're both essentially correct: "In electrical and electronic systems, reactance is the opposition of a circuit element to a change in current or voltage, due to that element's inductance or capacitance. A built-up electric field resists the change of voltage on the element, while a magnetic field resists the change of current." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
innovine Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 I'm pretty sure the term I mean is inductance. Reactance is the opposition to changes in current (or voltage) caused by inductance (or capacitance). A standard (high power) resistor can work as a dummy load as it offers resistance, but not inductive reactance. A coil, like in a speaker, is also inductive. Since tube amps are current sourcing, anything you connect which is inductive has a noticable impact on the signal, an impact that a simple resistor does not. The result of connecting something in.uctive is reactance, which is expected by the designer of the amp. So without inductance the dummy load causes tonal changes. This why the expensive attenuators are built on coils and motors, since they have inductance (tone preserving) as well as resistance (volume lowering). So when I said "A resistive load won't sound good, though. It needs to be inductive too" I could have added "to create the required reactance". But a coil, or the webber or whatever does not have reactance. It only creates a reactance when you pass current through it, because it is inductive. I love splitting hairs ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaceatl Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 A Weber MASS is a speaker you ninny muggins :P ....pretty sure speakers have always been reactive loads...But if you don't think so, that's fine...enjoy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelForbin Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 More stuff I need to read up on! http://www.tedweber.com/atten.htm "Some Weber Attenuators use power resistors to effect a purely resistive load on the amp. These attenuators are much like the other attenuators on the market, and provide a less natural sounding tone when heavily attenuated. Our resistive models are the Low Power Load Dump, Mega Dump, and Headphone Tap. Other Weber Attenuators utilize an actual speaker motor to apply a reactive load on the amp. The attenuators are unlike any other on the market, and provide a much more interactive, natural sound when in use. They affect the tone less than the resistor-based models. The speaker motor units are the MASS, MiniMass, MicroMass, Stereo MASS, MASS 150, MASS Lite, and Power Tap." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColonelForbin Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 Anyone tried using the Mesa-Boogie "Cab Clone" for this kind of application? http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CabClone8 "The Mesa/Boogie Cabclone is a speaker cabinet simulator and load box that gives you entirely new ways to use your guitar amplifier on stage or in your studio. Plug your amplifier's speaker output to the Cabclone, and you can connect your amp's tone directly to a mixing console, mic preamp, or even direct to your recording device. Three different cabinet simulation voicings let you emulate the sound of open-back, closed-back, and "vintage" speaker cabinets. You won't need to lug a speaker cabinet with you to get outstanding tone from your amplifier, with the Mesa/Boogie Cabclone." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giosoom Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 I am in exactly the same situation. People understandably enough are saying that one needs a load in order to safely operate a tube amp. I however wonder whether an audio interface, together with its studio monitors connected to the interface's line out, do in fact act as a load or not. If they do, then I would not think that a cabinet connected to the amp's line out would be required while the amp is also connected to the interface via the emulated speaker line out connection. On the other hand I am still choosing which amp to buy. I cannot check first-hand if a signal from the guitar would be fed from the amp o to the interface if a cab is not connected to the standard line out at the same time. In essence, if the above (ie: guitar to tube amps' line-in; amp's emulated line-out into audio interface's line-in; interface's line-out into studio monitors - with no cab connected into amp's standard line-out) were to be doable, the audio interface would also be acting as an attenuator. (?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fairleas Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 4 hours ago, Giosoom said: I however wonder whether an audio interface, together with its studio monitors connected to the interface's line out, do in fact act as a load or not. Pretty certain they don’t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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