Helix Amp Block Questions

[kellenburg]

I am transitioning from using Helix with a DT 50 to a Mission Gemini 1 FRFR cab.

 

I have always used several effects before the preamp only block (Comp/Wah/etc) with the others after the preamp block. I assumed the effects after were essentially in an effects loop as they were placed after the preamp and before the power amp of the DT amplifier. (I turned all of the modeling on the DT off and used it only a power amp fed from the Helix via L6 Link)

 

I will now be changing all of my patches to (full amp) or (amp + cab) models. I have 2 questions:

 

1. Is a (full amp) block different from an (amp + cab) block? I understand the added flexibility of an (amp + cab) block; my question assumes the (amp + cab) block is pairing 2 matched amps/cabs. Would they be the same in this scenario?

 

2. Should effects be placed after the cab or between the amp and cab to achieve the function of an effects loop?

 

Thanks! 

[rvroberts]

Q1 - from my experience given everything else is the same amp+cab or amp/cab combo are exactly the same.

Q2 - I think one big thing people keep missing about the helix is that it's a full recording studio in a box (except for the actual ability to record!).  when going FRFR, you get to do the kind of things you do in the studio.  That includes putting effects after the cab and the mic - don't underestimate the mic in cab sims.  That means you can have wonderfully pristine delays and reverbs that feel so much more like they are in a space - especially if you are going out to FOH in stereo.  And if you are in a studio situation again you get to post process the total amp and cab sound.  Even EQ can just sit your sound in the mix that bit nicer after everything else in the chain (like you were sitting using EQ on a desk)  Too many people sound like they just want to simulate some amp setup.  Yes, you can do that, but now you get to control your sound right to the engineer level - live, it's a huge jump up because rarely do you have the total and undivided attention of a good studio level engineer - but now you feed all that to the desk and the guy out front just needs to get a passible balance - which before was the best you could hope for!

[jbuhajla]

i like using separate amp and cab blocks to mix and match not-so typical combinations or pairing two different cabinets to an amp. 

[roscoe5]

1. I think there is a thread where one of the Line 6 staff (silverhead or DI?) confirmed that the Amp+Cab block is the same as a separate amp block and single cab block.  Both options have the same processing requirement, but Amp+Cab block saves you a slot on the path.  Separate dual cab blocks do sound great though, as @jbuhajla pointed out. 

 

2. A traditional effects loop is inserted between an amp's preamp and power amp.  Helix does not currently give you this patch point.  The closest you can get is after the amp and before the cab, which usually works very well.  You could achieve this with Helix & DT as L6 recommends using Helix preamp blocks with DT, which serves as the power amp section.

 

That said, @rvroberts statement about treating Helix as a studio tool (DAW channel strip) does open up the ability to add effects after the cab, which is nice.  This is pretty much the configuration and approach you now have with your Mission FRFR cab.

[DunedinDragon]

I believe L6 has previously made it clear that amp+cab and separate amp and cabs are functionally equivalent.  Operationally there are a number of reasons to separate them.

 

1. Placing effects processing post amp.

2. Using a split for multiple cabs

3.  Ability to use IR's rather than stock cabs

4.  Separate routing of pure amp signal from cab/mic'd signal to different outputs

 

There are probably others, but I myself prefer to build my patches with separate blocks in order to have the flexibility...not to mention I'm a pretty big user of IR's.

[malhavok]

2. Should effects be placed after the cab or between the amp and cab to achieve the function of an effects loop?

 

 

Try it both ways. I have not found a single case where it matters. Set up an identical tone on paths 1 and 2, but on path 2 put effects between amp and cab where path 1 has them after the cab. It sounds identical to me in every case I've tried this.

[RRMark]

Try it both ways. I have not found a single case where it matters. Set up an identical tone on paths 1 and 2, but on path 2 put effects between amp and cab where path 1 has them after the cab. It sounds identical to me in every case I've tried this.

I found much the same, but wondered if it was my 54 year old gig beaten ears. Do you apply much high cut in the cab? My brain wants to think I might be losing some HF air in the reverb, but I do find the difference barely perceptible.

It matters in the way I like to split at the end of the chain, 1/4" to poweramp/cab, IR to xlr to pa

[PeterHamm]

The problem with using amp+cab models, imho, is that certain FX BEG to between the amp and the cab, like tremolo and spring reverb. So I never ever ever do it.

[JeffMarshMusic]

Hi,

 

I'm new to the forum and will not have my Helix until next week, so I hope my question is okay for this thread.  I've never used amp modeling before.

 

I'm planning on using the 4 cable method with my Mesa for live shows.  Is amp modeling more for amp-less studio recording, IEM, or direct to House PA?  Would my Mesa ever really sound like a Fender or Vox?  Or, do Helix users ever bypass their Amp's preamp using a modeled preamp going direct to the power amp section of their amp? (I believe possible with the 4 cable method).

 

Thanks,

 

jm

[silverhead]

Your Mesa preamp will never really sound like a Fender or Vox preamp. As you have discovered most amp players with Helix use the 4 cable method which allows them to use either a Helix model preamp and output directly to the power amp/cab section of the amp, or use Helix for FX only with no modelled amp/preamp and output to the preamp input of their amp. The routing configuration is determined by whether or not the FX Loop in the Helix preset is active.