Helix with Firehawk 1500

[DunedinDragon]

I'm seriously considering getting a Firehawk 1500 to use with my Helix.  But I recently noticed a discussion regarding how the speakers get reconfigured when you come into the FH via the monitor in plugs.  Particularly that the horn gets disabled.

 

Here's the deal though.  I have no intention of using the stereo facilities unless I'm maybe using the FH alone and not connected to a PA.  Otherwise I would connect as I do to my standard monitor using the left mono channel.  I'm not sure what effect this has over how the speakers get used.

 

 I know that there are some people here using the FH1500 with the Helix and I'm curious how you connect to it.

[PierM]

I'll tell you my problems, other people will say it's amazing. In my real life experience, it's a no go.

1) Monitor Input stage is doomed by compression hiss (see the video in the other dedicated thread)
2) When used in Stereo (using the two Monitor IN) it does use just the 2 coax L/R speakers and the limiter kicks in very early. Tone is thin, dynamic is gone. Volume range is limited to bedroom levels. It's like using two 5" speakers that you could buy alone (and probably working even better with no HISS), without breaking your back to move the thing.
3) When used in Wide Stereo (Monitor IN) it does use the two 5.5" coaxial and center speaker, but still you have the compression hiss, from 40% to 100% of the volume. If you play some part of your songs with clean tone, is like a pink/white noise flooding your music. Awful. It also does not mix at all in a gig. Weak presence. This is all real life experience. Again, get a look to that video the guy posted in the other thread.
4) Wet/Dry/Wet; it consists basically in splitting your Helix patch signal after amp modeling, with the stereo effect routed to the Monitor IN, and the dry signal sent to the FH1500 guitar in (using a empty preset). This way you have all speakers working but you are limited in the usage of the Helix stereo effect to avoid the phase cancellation. You'll need to rethink your entire way in creating presets, and you'll be forced to specific patterns. Once you did your presets for that scheme, you'll need to redo your presets for recording, foh and also basic gigs, as the Wet/Dry/Wet does really not mix in a band at high volumes. It's, as before, weak. You will end with a dominant of the dry signal into the mix, with effects buried by the other instruments and amp hiss, since they are driven by two 5.5". Again, bedroom scheme may works, or one man show. Not more than that. (Playing with a friend, I've been humiliated by a Fender Princeton reissue.)
5) It's heavy as a boat anchor. This wouldn't be a problem if only working good.
6) Line 6 support on this amp is zero. If you contact them via ticket they'll tell you it's not an issue, but it's the way the amp is working. If you moan on thread, nobody seems caring with technical responses. If you ask for a firmware, no one will give you an answer.
7) The app is a mess. It does keep disconnecting. Hanging. The procedure to save a preset in the amp is ridicolous.
8) When used alone, MIDI is useless. The manual is wrong, as confirmed by L6. Only way to control your presets it's buying its own board. All you can do with a controller, despite the full MIDI interface on the back, is to change preset UP/DOWN.

The goods; it does sound stellar if used alone (just remember to turn down to zero the monitor in gain). DSP here works at best, and soon or later you'll start asking yourself why you need to use the Helix with it, messing with cables, phase issues, HISS...to get a ridiculous tone. :)

The goods 2: If you use it in Mono, many problems are gone (apart the hiss). But then I'd buy a L2T or L2M. ;)

Good luck with your choice. :)

[talwilkins]

I use it in mono, going in through the monitor in (left and right).

I tried stereo first but got fase issues. Turned the FH to mono and was blown away!

Haven't taken the time and effort to try with one cable but I guess it should work fine.

I do like having the patches in stereo on the helix so I can use them that way at home through headphones.

 

Hiss: Actually I have no problems with hiss except on one patch. I can't figure out what's going on.

I have an external drive in the effects loop in front of a clean amp sim.

At first I thought I had the culprit because the hiss stops when I bypass the effects loop.

But then I found that the hiss also stops when I leave it on but bypass the amp sim. Huh?

I don't think it's a FH problem since my other patches are dead silent and also use the same pedal in the loop and the same amp with the same settings. There is a difference in routing though. The one wit hiss has a seperate path with just the pre amp while the other path has the drives and effects. By doing this I get the really pronounced picking dynamics of the clean path mixed with the drive sound with a lot of sustain from the second path.

 

Anyway: I love the FH with Helix this way. I've never had such a great, clear and defined sound that cuts like a knife before. And I can tell you that volume really is no issue. It's REALLY LOUD!!

I'm pretty sure it uses the two coaxials and the 12" center speaker (could be wrong, don't know for sure). I don't think it's unseeing the horn though.

[PierM]

I do agree, as it's true; when set to mono it does work fine, and it has much more presence in the room (still the hiss is there and loud at high volumes).

 

But since it's 30Kg boat, with six speakers and stuff...if I have to play mono, I've my dear L2m which sounds great at huge volumes, with 90% less hiss, and half of the weight. :)

[spikey]

I'm running into my FireHawk 1500's Left and Right Monitor in's from Helix L&R outs (and it sounds great to me) thru a mixer which has 4 subgroups, that also allows me to send into the "return" in jack when I'm using my Kemper's 3 outputs (this give me a "wet-dry-wet" setup). The subgroups on the Behringer X2442 USB mixer allow me to do this. The FH1500 is basically an FRFR combo amp with its own amp FX and cab emulations and flat response, giving me accurate sounds from both the KPA and Helix. 

 

I'm pretty sure it uses the two coaxials and the 12" center speaker (could be wrong, don't know for sure). I don't think it's unseeing the horn though.

 

 Yes thats AFFIK correct, and the horn is also activated as well when you use the guitar input, or the return in jack. SO, if you used an aux send on Helix set to line level (right after the amp & cab and before the post effects) into the return in on the FH1500, this should also give you a "wet-dry-wet" mix on the FH1500 too!

[zivdud]

Maybe Devin Townsend set up might help. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lgP5qirTKjU

[zivdud]

I personally love my helix and Firehawk 1500 set up still experimenting with different setups because I use mine for both guitar and bass. I imagine in the future there will be more integration of the two as more development happens but I have never been happier with my tone and the versitity of my sound ever before.

[zivdud]

As for the "hiss," I had that running my helix through my PA system and thought that is just modelling the nature of a tube amp, much like my other tube amps.

[DunedinDragon]

I do agree, as it's true; when set to mono it does work fine, and it has much more presence in the room (still the hiss is there and loud at high volumes).

 

But since it's 30Kg boat, with six speakers and stuff...if I have to play mono, I've my dear L2m which sounds great at huge volumes, with 90% less hiss, and half of the weight. :)

 

I'm a bit confused by the statement "when set to mono" as I see nothing in the documentation of that being a setting.  Are you saying just going into the L/Mono monitor input?  Or is there some other setting?

[spikey]

The left out on Helix (by itself) is Mono, and the left monitor input on the FH1500 (by itself) is also mono.

[talwilkins]

The left out on Helix (by itself) is Mono, and the left monitor input on the FH1500 (by itself) is also mono.

Correct but there is also a setting in the FH that turns it into mono, even when receiving a stereo signal.

[DunedinDragon]

Correct but there is also a setting in the FH that turns it into mono, even when receiving a stereo signal.

Yeah...that's what I'm talking about.  That's in the android app under settings?

[talwilkins]

Yeah...that's what I'm talking about.  That's in the android app under settings?

Not sure but it's definitely on the FH itself.

You have a setting somewhere where you can choose between Mono, Stereo and Wide Stereo

[spikey]

Under the "Levels" icon on my iPad app, moving the "Width" slider control from left to right it says, Mono, Stereo, Stereo wide. Is that it?

[PierM]

As for the "hiss," I had that running my helix through my PA system and thought that is just modelling the nature of a tube amp, much like my other tube amps.

 

Eh eh...no. :) It's not hum, not noise, it does not happen in the guitar chain, but in the back end. It's not something you can filter out with a noise gate. Has really nothing to do with tubes (??!)  ;) If you have that amp, just try tuning all way down the guitar IN signal, and raise the overall to max, and listen. It's just white noise. The hiss is mostly produced by the Monitor IN section, which for some reason, is working even if you are not connecting any external source. So, even if you use the amp alone, with no Helix in the back, the Monitor IN/GAIN section will add hiss on top. This is an hardware (or firmware/software) mistake. I do partially solve this turning all the way down the GAIN pot in the back of the amp. Of course you can't do the same using the Helix, as you'd kill the entire signal coming from the Helix.

 

Said that, all these units are generating HISS, more or less. It's typical. It's normal. But usually the ratio it is not that bad as with the Firehawk 1500. Could also be related to the limiters squeezing the volume, while you are driving the two small speakers, to avoid damage, but this does not allow the amp to go to its maximum power and you basically get same volume from around 50 to 100%, with just more hiss.

 

There is people who tolerate much more than others, a pink/white noise as a background and it also depends how do you use it.

 

I guess if you play some high gain stuff, the hiss it's gonna be buried. But if you use, let's say, the Variax with the acoustic model, with that crystal clear tone, that hiss it's totally spoiling the performance.

[spikey]

 

Said that, all these units are generating HISS, more or less. It's typical. It's normal. But usually the ratio it is not that bad as with the Firehawk 1500. 

 

How many FireHawk 1500's do you own that has this issue? I sounds like you have tried several...

[PierM]

 

How many FireHawk 1500's do you own that has this issue? I sounds like you have tried several...

 

Sorry I don't understand what you mean.

 

I meant the hiss is present in all these digital speakers, but the FH1500 has the worse ratio between the hiss and the signal.

If you are suggesting it's a problem with my unit, no. It's like that by design. If you don't hear it it's because you are using the amp at bedroom levels, or you probably have hearing loss for the high frequencies. Or, other option, your tone is saturated so your hiss is buried in the mix.

[spikey]

Well if you are claiming that every FireHawk 1500 has this issue I want to see your proof.

 

Thinking they do,  and knowing for sure are two different things, hearing loss or not....

 

I'm sure if we turn up any amp to max levels with no input, there is some noise. If that's the case then yea I agree.  ;)

[PierM]

Thanks lord you are not working for L6! LOL

 

Why in earth I should prove you something? :D

 

I played 3 of these things. They are all the same.

 

Other users are reporting the same in the forums. Video have been posted. Sorry but you are ridiculous.

[PierM]

Just took this. Helix is off, guitar volume is off, that is just the FH1500 hiss, alone;

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/siqk1ud8u2i5jcl/IMG_3288.MOV?dl=0

[brue58ski]

The Helix itself has hiss. Try listening to it with no blocks and nothing plugged in or with the Volume completely turned down.

[spikey]

Just took this. Helix is off, guitar volume is off, that is just the FH1500 hiss, alone;

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/siqk1ud8u2i5jcl/IMG_3288.MOV?dl=0

No I do not work for Line 6. And that' s the proof I was asking for.  :D

 

Now turn up any Fender, marshall, Peavey etc etc all the way up with no input. I bet they are noisy as well.

[PierM]

LOL! So now you are twisting, and suggesting the HISS does disappear if I do play? Really man, you should be paid by L6 as you are number one! Are you actually playing the guitar other than posting over here? LOL!

 

By the way, the video with the guy playing the FH1500, with the crazy noise in the background, and the squeezed volume issue, have been removed completely from the other thread.

 

Post is gone. Video is gone. How good they are?  :D

 

BTW, I'll stop ranting now. Let's not brake your toys. :P

 

(btw for the OP, don't buy that amp for the Helix! Go with L2M/L2T if you want L6, or with an CLR!)

[spikey]

I'm not twisting anything. You flatly stated there's an issue with ALL of the FireHawk 1500's and then stated its a normal thing but worse with this model. I asked you for proof and you provided it FOR YOUR UNIT ONLY, in which I stated that yes I hear it, but when you turn up most amps full tilt, you get noise. 

[DunedinDragon]

 

(btw for the OP, don't buy that amp for the Helix! Go with L2M/L2T if you want L6, or with an CLR!)

 

I already have two Yamaha DXR12s that I'm perfectly happy with.  My interest in the Firehawk is really three-fold.  It could work as an alternative to the DXRs if necessary, but it could also be a viable backup should the Helix go down for some reason.  Also there are some occasions where I play out with some other local musicians and we don't put the instruments through the PA.  The FH might be useful in that situation.

 

However, since I already have a functional system with the DXR12s and some of the issues being talked about here I'm going to have to do some real investigation about whether this would be worth it or not.  I may just wait until one of the local music stores has one in stock so I can go play with it and see for myself.

 

At this point I'm pretty skeptical.  It appears this is another instance of Line 6 not thinking very clearly about a product integrating seamlessly with it's other products.  It literally should be no more hassle plugging the Helix into the FH than it is plugging it into a DXR.

[spikey]

 

It appears this is another instance of Line 6 not thinking very clearly about a product integrating seamlessly with it's other products. 

 

 

 

What do you mean!?!  They fixed the DT50 L6-Link control integration with Helix and added a tuner for the editor!!! ..., errr...., wait...   ;)

 

 

It literally should be no more hassle plugging the Helix into the FH than it is plugging it into a DXR.

 

 

? It's not any more hassle. You just plug it in and use it like you would the DXR. Now you might have to tweak the FH1500 iPad's apps settings and adjust the master volume level there, but that's all I had to do.

[tmntshredder]

I have to say that I've never noticed any hiss with mine, but I can't say that I'm happy with it. It sounds great in mono, but don't try to use it in stereo. The sound becomes completely muffled, and there is no volume. This is an issue that I've searched for a solution to since a discovered it, but haven't been able to answer. I would buy something else if I had to do it over again. The stereo situation is extremely frustrating.

[talwilkins]

I have four patches in Helix that I use, all based on the same amp and effects. They all route to the 1/4" out which I connect to the monitor in of Firehawk.

3 of them are actually exact copies with different snapshots. They are dead silent at high volume.

The fourth is also based on the same patch but I changed the routing. This one does have a pretty strong Hiss and I can't figure out why.

It has two seperate signal paths, both going to 1/4" out.

One path has the pre amp sim and a compressor, the other path has drive (external in effects loop), delay, phaser.

When I bypass the effects loop the hiss dissapears (got it, I thought). But then I found that if I enable it again (hiss reapears) and bypass the amp sim (Clean amp), the hiss returns.

 

I really don't know whats going on but am inclined to beleive it's not the Firehawk because it doesn't hiss on my other patches.

Also, when I pull the cables out of the Firehawk the hiss is gone.

[DunedinDragon]

I have four patches in Helix that I use, all based on the same amp and effects. They all route to the 1/4" out which I connect to the monitor in of Firehawk.

3 of them are actually exact copies with different snapshots. They are dead silent at high volume.

The fourth is also based on the same patch but I changed the routing. This one does have a pretty strong Hiss and I can't figure out why.

It has two seperate signal paths, both going to 1/4" out.

One path has the pre amp sim and a compressor, the other path has drive (external in effects loop), delay, phaser.

When I bypass the effects loop the hiss dissapears (got it, I thought). But then I found that if I enable it again (hiss reapears) and bypass the amp sim (Clean amp), the hiss returns.

 

I really don't know whats going on but am inclined to beleive it's not the Firehawk because it doesn't hiss on my other patches.

Also, when I pull the cables out of the Firehawk the hiss is gone.

 

Could it be that the fourth patch is actually being sent stereo as compared to the other two patches and the hiss is an artifact of that?

[PierM]

Just FYI, the short video I posted above, it's just the amp. I kept the Helix turned OFF to avoid that one adding more hiss on top.

 

I believe the hiss are limiters compressing the signal as soon as its needed to avoid damages on speakers.

 

I also have hiss on the L2m, but it's barely audible and go totally buried as soon as you play. Something I can't achieve with the FH1500, as the hiss goes stronger as you push more signal into it. Does sound like a reaction.

 

But in general, I could even manage the hiss (pushing more on helix block amps levels and using less volume on the FH1500), if only the amp didn't work that muffled in stereo at high volumes.

[tmntshredder]

Just FYI, the short video I posted above, it's just the amp. I kept the Helix turned OFF to avoid that one adding more hiss on top.

 

I believe the hiss are limiters compressing the signal as soon as its needed to avoid damages on speakers.

 

I also have hiss on the L2m, but it's barely audible and go totally buried as soon as you play. Something I can't achieve with the FH1500, as the hiss goes stronger as you push more signal into it. Does sound like a reaction.

 

But in general, I could even manage the hiss (pushing more on helix block amps levels and using less volume on the FH1500), if only the amp didn't work that muffled in stereo at high volumes.

Yes to this. Hiss has not been a problem for me, but Firehawk is completely unusable in stereo due the muffling and lack of volume. However, I may have never noticed the hiss issue because the lack of clarity and volume in a live band situation made me switch to mono immediately. Nothing like only getting partial use out of a $1000 piece of gear. Line 6 needs to address this and offer some support for this problem. Again, it sounds great in mono, but so do a lot of other much less expensive options.

[cruisinon2]

I have to say that I've never noticed any hiss with mine, but I can't say that I'm happy with it. It sounds great in mono, but don't try to use it in stereo. The sound becomes completely muffled, and there is no volume. This is an issue that I've searched for a solution to since a discovered it, but haven't been able to answer. I would buy something else if I had to do it over again. The stereo situation is extremely frustrating.

I will remain forever baffled by "stereo" amps that are self contained single units, with multiple speakers all housed in the same box. No physical separation = no stereo. It's that simple...don't care how fancy the guts are, or how many somersaults it's doing with your signal. If you want stereo, then you need two speakers. One over here, and the other over there...with a WHOLE LOT of daylight in the middle.

[PierM]

I think the problem isn't easy fixable as there is central speaker sharing, so whatever you do with stereo/DSP schemes, you are driving a huge center combo (speaker + horn) VS two small (and pretty delicate) 5.5" coaxial, which are going to be buried by the dry section. It's not a bi-Amp going to indipendent speakers, as for example a JC120. With this kind of Wet/Dry/Wet, the weakness stays in the tone splitting into separate elements, where the dry will have way more presence than the wet FX.

 

It may be nice to play alone for some trip tone, but this kind of W/D/W can't really work at gig volumes.

[hal3001]

I have a Helix rack and Firehawk 1500 and I used it for quite a while as a speaker for the Helix and it worked and sounded great.  Although, in the end I did decide to go with just a powered PA speaker as the Firehawk is incredibly heavy and I felt like the sound I was getting out of the PA and Firehawk were pretty similar and for the price, I could get a pair of ZLX-12Ps.

[gunpointmetal]

I will remain forever baffled by "stereo" amps that are self contained single units, with multiple speakers all housed in the same box. No physical separation = no stereo. It's that simple...don't care how fancy the guts are, or how many somersaults it's doing with your signal. If you want stereo, then you need two speakers. One over here, and the other over there...with a WHOLE LOT of daylight in the middle.

Not really, as long as they're sealed from each other internally and they have different radiation patterns, its pretty easy to get stereo out of a single box. If the cabinet interior construction is right, its not different than having two separate speakers standing right next to each other.

[spikey]

I do "get" what cruis is referring to, only because I also believe the stereo field is destroyed by having the left and right speakers too close to one another and without proper distance and separation.

[spikey]

With this kind of Wet/Dry/Wet, the weakness stays in the tone splitting into separate elements, where the dry will have way more presence than the wet FX.

 

 

Not if you can run the wet's L&R and the dry thru 3 channels in a mixer and control their output levels using sub outs, then send the wet's L&R into the monitor ins L&R, and the dry into the EFX Return (on the FireHawk 1500), as I do with my Kemper. In fact I can completely kill the dry and hear nothing but the wet L&R doing it this way. And it sounds great when mixed right too.

[cruisinon2]

its not different than having two separate speakers standing right next to each other.

In practice, who does that? If you actually want to hear the stereo spread, the speakers should be the same distance from each other as they are from your head, so that the three of you form an equilateral triangle...or as close as is practical, given the layout of the room.

[PierM]

Not if you can run the wet's L&R and the dry thru 3 channels in a mixer and control their output levels using sub outs, then send the wet's L&R into the monitor ins L&R, and the dry into the EFX Return (on the FireHawk 1500), as I do with my Kemper. In fact I can completely kill the dry and hear nothing but the wet L&R doing it this way. And it sounds great when mixed right too.

U dont need all this mess to do so. I can do the same just sending XLR from Helix WET path straight to Fh1500 monitor IN, and a send block after amp sim block, straight into the fh1500 guitar in, using a blank preset with no amp and no cab. I can then use the master Helix Volume to control the WET and the master guitar in to control the dry. Point here is you are mixing volumes, sound pressure and also missing some points.

 

Whatever volume you will assign into the wet you cant go wider the coaxial speakers freq response range, and you cant bypass limiters protecting them, so you will still lack presence, while muffling the curve because of limiters.

 

What you are doing is just making the amp going more in the back, at the time you'd kill the dry.

 

Your scheme would make sense with 3 identical speakers, but here we are talking a woofer vs two mid/high freq. small drivers.

[spikey]

My setup doesn't sound muffled. The 12" and horn handles the return in (dry) and L&R coaxials handle the effects. As always YMMV, but how is that a mess if it sounds good and works for me? And it's mix is adjustable via the touch of a fader. Try that by just sending a Helix wet XLR straight into the monitor in jack. Not your cup O tea, fine. But its no mess.