Solution for cab IR deficiencies in HD500

[JTSC777]

After struggling for a few years now with my HD500( my second one) and it's strange cab sims I have figured something out.Last night I played it with only cab sims off/ studio direct mode into an ADA cab simulator with feeds for my Alto FRFR and an XlR out to the FOH mixer.That way I can crank my powered speakers up to where I like them and not change the house mix.I played my Korean JTV 69 the entire gig.

It absolutely killed/ smoked/ baked/ roasted/ almost caught fire it was so good and fun to play!

 

You dont need a $500 dollar Torpedo Cab ( overpriced over rated device) to get this thing happening direct.

Digitech has a new one as well and its just a small affordable pedal.

 

I dont have time to load / audition etc... cab IRs.I am busy working.

 

The ADA is made in the US and cost $100. Highly recommended if you are tired of the lousy cab sims in the HD500. The preamps / power amp sims/ effects are all excellent.Its just the cab sims that are endlessly

frustrating.

 

I had controlled glorious feedback/ stellar funky cleans/ killer roots type Fender tones/ everything I needed was there.

 

Heck I am thinking about setting it up and playing it today just for a little fun its so good.

 

To those of you frustrated with your HD500(X) unit and are ready to sell it try this technique before you do and crank it up nice and loud.I think you will be surprised.

[pfsmith0]

Which ADA cab simulator did you use? They have several models.

[Ed_Saxman]

So are you using the FX loop after the amp sim, or do you place the ADA cab sim at the end of the entire chain?

 

Anyway, I wonder how many of us could be interested in the umpteenth method to improve our humble POD HD at this stage.

 

I mean... with the Helix LT already on the shelves.

[BillBee]

Thanks my man - I will have to check it out.

[JTSC777]

So are you using the FX loop after the amp sim, or do you place the ADA cab sim at the end of the entire chain?

 

Anyway, I wonder how many of us could be interested in the umpteenth method to improve our humble POD HD at this stage.

 

I mean... with the Helix LT already on the shelves.

I am interested in keeping my money in my pocket lol! Buy all the Helix units you want. For live gigging the old HD500 is still pretty good.

When I need more realism I use my tube amps / pedals. Helix/ Axe / Kemper still cant touch my 35 year old JCM 800. If you dont have any quality tube amps yeah Helix will get you close but for $1500 dollars it better make me a grilled cheese sandwich.

 

Its just a good cheap suggestion and for a working pro who has to have an HD to interface my JTV with my PC I had to find a way to make it viable,

or get rid of it.

 

Take it or leave it or buy a Helix.

 

I have not heard any clips or people using Helix or the Axe live etc...that has made me want to buy one.I just dont think its that much better.

unless it was going to be the only thing I use.I am fortunate to have a small storage unit full of great gear so I have many choices.

[JTSC777]

A/DA GCS-2. After HD500 1/4 in. output straight into one or two Alto 10 in powered speakers that cost less than $1500 each.

Studio Direct output setting. I dont use the HD effect loop.

[Ed_Saxman]

I am interested in keeping my money in my pocket lol! Buy all the Helix units you want. For live gigging the old HD500 is still pretty good.

When I need more realism I use my tube amps / pedals. Helix/ Axe / Kemper still cant touch my 35 year old JCM 800. If you dont have any quality tube amps yeah Helix will get you close but for $1500 dollars it better make me a grilled cheese sandwich.

 

Its just a good cheap suggestion and for a working pro who has to have an HD to interface my JTV with my PC I had to find a way to make it viable,

or get rid of it.

 

Take it or leave it or buy a Helix.

 

I have not heard any clips or people using Helix or the Axe live etc...that has made me want to buy one.I just dont think its that much better.

unless it was going to be the only thing I use.I am fortunate to have a small storage unit full of great gear so I have many choices.

 

I want to make it clear that I did not want to underestimate the object of your thread.

I completely agree that the cab simulation is the worst of the HD Pod, so honestly I think you've probably found a good solution.

In fact, seeing people like you, who really makes an economic profit working with a POD HD, proves that people like me (who am just a saxophonist who also has a guitar, or in other words, an amateur guitarist) doesn't need a Helix at all, but keep practicing and avoid the G.A.S madness.

 

 

A/DA GCS-2. After HD500 1/4 in. output straight into one or two Alto 10 in powered speakers that cost less than $1500 each.

Studio Direct output setting. I dont use the HD effect loop.

 

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't the IRs supossed to be after the preamp but before the post FX (mod, reverb, delay)?

 

Looking at the A/DA GCS-2, I can see it only have a single input, so do you run the POD in mono?

[BillBee]

Just for relevancy of running the HD with external IRs - take a look at the D-tech GSP1101 - similar to the HD Rack in that it has fixed IRs. On its own the GSP is a pretty nice unit but when MustBeBeta came out with a firmware allowing 10 User IRs the GSP just took a leap back into relevancy. The HD really would benefit from them as well. IRs are not a panacea for poor patch programming and the stock cabs are fine but IRs just open up that bit of sonic diversity that is welcome. IMO of course ;)

[BillBee]

Nico, the HD is fine as is. Its not a matter of can't get good results its getting more good results.

[BillBee]

it seems that we share the same point of view, but in my last post I was replying mainly to the first post, clearly based on a different POV..

 

regarding instead the topic about using an IR loading device (a bit off topic here, I know) is always interesting to mention what Logidy said time ago:

 

It's all good my man!

[duncann]

I always thought the cabs in the HD were fine, especially given the hardware Line 6 was working with at the time, and also that the HD is not a dedicated IR loader, which likely would have taken away a considerable amount of DSP the user would have to work with.

 

Line 6 did a good job on balancing the cabs for whatever sound you might be after. There's a really good variety in there. Sure IRs could considerably improve what you get with the HD, since IRs are so much of the final tone, but I never really saw it as much of a problem.

[mystic38]

Cant see the reason to dismiss out of hand the Torpedo cab.. $$ objections?.. sure after all..its the price of an HD500x :D

 

Anyway, i have been demo'ing this unit by trialing the VST (afaik the CAB is "simply" the WOS VST in hardware) and the results are very very impressive.. so much so that the best tone i have ever had out of my computer to date has been the BE-OD > WOS plugin > out.

 

with power amp simulation, speaker selection, stereo mic selection & placement, compression, EQ and reverb comparisons to analog speaker sim pedals are pretty pointless imo

[cruisinon2]

I always thought the cabs in the HD were fine, especially given the hardware Line 6 was working with at the time, and also that the HD is not a dedicated IR loader, which likely would have taken away a considerable amount of DSP the user would have to work with.

 

Line 6 did a good job on balancing the cabs for whatever sound you might be after. There's a really good variety in there. Sure IRs could considerably improve what you get with the HD, since IRs are so much of the final tone, but I never really saw it as much of a problem.

Me neither...I've got an IR loader in my DAW, and tried a bunch with the POD. Got some nice sounds, but nothing that I couldn't achieve with the stock cabs. And frankly, sifting through dozens of them got old quick. Not one provided an instant "Ah-ha!" moment...had to do just as much tweaking as with the native ones. Choices are delightful, but too much of a good thing really does exist, and can be just as stifling as having limited options. Sooner or later you reach a point of diminishing returns. If you're spending more time tweaking than playing, something is wrong...or you're just nuts. ;)

[Smashcraaft]

I do like the onboard cabs as they seem to offer enough options for me. I am reducing my patches to a minimum at the moment. My goal is to get a max of two basic tones per gain-type (High gain, Crunch).

What I found very enlightening / a good playground was locating my favorit tones (tones I allways come back to) and trying to match them just by using another nearby cab/mic combination.

So I listen to similar sounding stock cabs (you will find 1-5 in most cases) duplicate my favorite tone and try to get even closer to the source by choosing a fitting mic to that cab. Of course there is no way to get 100 % to my original favorite tone ... but sometimes you get further than your old favorite!

This way the onboard-cabs offer me the possibility to find something "subtile" in the depth of the tone I would not have searched for nor found by tweaking the amp or EQs. Not easy to explain in my poor English but I do hope someone tried that himself before feeling sick about the cabs and mics. There are nice pairings you can find if you try to mimic a good tone in a different way.

[bjnette]

Not too many have noticed the Flaw in the HDs and some carry that flaw over into Helix. And that is in the real world the time based effects are before the cabinets not after the cabinet block. You will see this error carried over to Helix but on Helix you can place the cab last and correct it. I recently tried to get some IRs going but as mentioned never finding a "Wow" moment. Will keep trying to really test out what is available as with IRs of cab mic room etc. I also agree that even with the cabs on the HD it is more than adequate. Once you dial in the Amp tone you like it really is worthwhile saving a few copies and do as smashmouth layed out and try different cabs and mics. For me nearly every cab has the 121 and cab resonance upped a hair. So will try it as way to better the Amp tone.

[bjnette]

Actually that is exactly what I meant and the reason why I am trying out IRs in my DAW but technically this is missing the power amp section as well. It is a good point. Ideally the FX loop in HDs or HX should be accessible before the pwr amp section if required. But that said I think Guitar Rig and revalver let you slot effects before the power amp. It has been a while and will need to confirm it.

[edstar1960]

Just out of interest. Has anyone tried using HD500 patch with NO CABS going into a Stagesource L2/L3 set in ELECTRIC GUITAR mode?  

The ELECTRIC GUITAR setting emulates a 212 combo amp and I just wondered whether anyone had tried this and thought that it was a better/easier solution than using the HD500 onboard CABS?

Or has anyone compared that setting to using an outboard cab simulator like the ADA or H&K redbox? And if so - what did you think - worse/better/same?

Thanks.

[Akeron]

I've had good results using external IRs in a DAW but there's a problem. I've found out that when you select "No Cab", the deps E.R., Lo Cut, Res Lvl, Thump, Decay (even the mic!) are still active and change the sound of the IRs in the recording. They should be off in theory but they're not. Nobody knows where the real neutral settings should be so you have to set them to taste...

[BillBee]

Try selecting the "Pre" version of the amps but going "No Cab" should mean no cab (etc).  

[Akeron]

They're still active even using the "pre" versions

[BillBee]

They're still active even using the "pre" versions

 

Even when going out the 1/4"? You are not running a dual path patch are you?

[Akeron]

I connect the XLRs from POD to an external audio interface, which is connected via USB to the PC, usigng single amp. I suppose that's one of the many undocumented "features"

[Ed_Saxman]

the HD is fine as is.

 

I always thought the cabs in the HD were fine, especially given the hardware Line 6 was working with at the time, and also that the HD is not a dedicated IR loader, which likely would have taken away a considerable amount of DSP the user would have to work with.

 

Line 6 did a good job on balancing the cabs for whatever sound you might be after. There's a really good variety in there. Sure IRs could considerably improve what you get with the HD, since IRs are so much of the final tone, but I never really saw it as much of a problem.

 

Today I have been comparing Amplitube 4 and Scuffman Amps S-Gear Vs. my POD HD500. And guess what... I have much prefered the POD.

 

Not becouse the overall sound only, but the playing feel. I definitely can perceive the latency (despite being using 32 samples) of the software and I can hear a excesive compression overall. In both cases I have heard some glitches while playing (even trying with a greater sample rate), so definitely this isn't something I would use live (not to practice at home, either). I think the software can be useful for reamping, though.

 

 

I do like the onboard cabs as they seem to offer enough options for me. I am reducing my patches to a minimum at the moment. My goal is to get a max of two basic tones per gain-type (High gain, Crunch).

 

Interesting! I'm doing quite the same. Currently I'm using just one bank, and the number of my amps choices has been dramatically reduced to:

 

—JC-120

—Fender Deluxe/Twin

—AC-30 TB/Fawn

—JC-120 amp + Deluxe cab (a great combination, btw)

 

I have realized that by limiting my choices I've ended with a better understanding of each amp, and with a clearer idea of what kind of tones I was pursuing.

 

I have created presets for the styles I play: I use the Fenders mostly for funk presets, the Roland (or the JC amp+Deluxe cab) for Jazz, and the VOX mostly for leads, and some eventual crunch.  This is all I really need/like.

 

And the truth is, that I'm actually far more happy with my tone than with my guitar playing, so I guess I have reached to a certain point of maturity using the POD HD, finally!.

 

A great machine... when you finally get to know her thoroughly. So don't give up!

...unless of course, that you have the money and enough guitar skills. If ithis is your case, then do yourself a favor and get rid of the HD and buy one of those fancy Helices. I would do the same !

[BillBee]

I just finished doing the test (POD in Studio/Direct output mode)..

 

As I expected, by disabling the cab all its parameters have no effect at all on the output signal .. not even a bit!!..

 

so I really don't know what a strange thing happened in the recording of the friend Akeron when he did his testing

 

Indeed, setting the output to power amp, selecting pre's only, disabling cabs all those "should" cancel the cabs. For S&Gs I looked through the archive and there was one other guy that had a similar issue but alas there was never any follow-up for confirmation or solution.

[Akeron]

Listening again to some recordings I've still got, the differences are very subtle from recording to recording. The fact is, sometimes they're audible, sometimes not. One thing I've noticed is I get wildly different sounds from the same patch from session to session

[BillBee]

IMO unless you are changing guitars (pu's strings etc) there should be no wildly changing sounds with the same patch from session to session unless the other hardware and/or DAW has its settings changed or issues.

[bjnette]

The forgot to save a few tweaks can also give the tonal differences unless you remain on the same patch when you switched off

it will be in memory until you change the patches and revert back to the saved one. This could explain it.

[Ed_Saxman]

I've had good results using external IRs in a DAW but there's a problem. I've found out that when you select "No Cab", the deps E.R., Lo Cut, Res Lvl, Thump, Decay (even the mic!) are still active and change the sound of the IRs in the recording. They should be off in theory but they're not. Nobody knows where the real neutral settings should be so you have to set them to taste...

 

 

They're still active even using the "pre" versions

 

 

I just finished doing the test (POD in Studio/Direct output mode)..

 

As I expected, by disabling the cab all its parameters have no effect at all on the output signal .. not even a bit!!..

 

so I really don't know what a strange thing happened in the recording of the friend Akeron when he did his testing

 

 

Listening again to some recordings I've still got, the differences are very subtle from recording to recording. The fact is, sometimes they're audible, sometimes not. One thing I've noticed is I get wildly different sounds from the same patch from session to session

 

 

This whole topic reminds me my particular experience about this:

 

I am using the "Stack Power Amp" mode to feed my Roland GA-212 (stereo line INs), and I was always making adjustments that were useless:

 

—The mic sims does't have any effect in any other mode but Studio/Direct (they are effectively off the chain)

 

—The CAB parameters neither. (I mean the so-called "deep cab parameters": Low Cut, Res level, Thump, Decay)

 

But I could not be sure, I really believed I was hearing changes, so I needed evidence.

Then I made some tests feeding a Sine Wave (Tone Gen Pro app, IOS) to the POD's input.

 

Then I could empirically prove how my brain and my ears were deceiving me.

 

You can read the whole topic here: http://line6.com/support/topic/12972-cab-dep-parameter-measurements/

 

 

 

This story could end here but .... I have to confess that I have a bad memory, and because of this, I forgot my own check on the Cabs in some point.

And for the last few months I was adjusting the Cab Parameters again, in a complete nonsense!!

Therefore, my brain was deceiving me doubly.

Thanks for talking about this again, guys, you reminded me that I can not trust my brain, not anymore.

 

[cruisinon2]

But I could not be sure, I really believed I was hearing changes, so I needed evidence.

Then I made some tests feeding a Sine Wave (Tone Gen Pro app, IOS) to the POD's input.

 

Then I could empirically prove how my brain and my ears were deceiving me...

Yup. This happens to us all, because human perception does not obey mathematical equations, and no matter how "awesome" your ears are, they DO NOT have the precision of a Swiss watch. How you perceive something on any given day can be influenced by anything under the sun. With the exception of cases where the device itself is genuinely malfunctioning, there are a million and one things that can make it SEEM as though the patch sounds different from one day to the next...but it's got nothing to do with the hardware. It's all about the software in your head, and what happens between your ears and your brain. Good mood, bad mood, headache, ingrown toenail, had a fight with the wife, kid wrecked your car, the weather sucks, you won $100 on a scratch-off, the guy at work whom you've despised for the last 30 years keels over in his cubicle...the patch is exactly the same as it was yesterday, but you're not.

[Brazzy]

Yup. This happens to us all, because perception is not a mathematical equation, nor does it have the precision of a Swiss watch. With the exception of cases where the device itself is genuinely malfunctioning, there are a million and one things that can make it SEEM as though the patch sounds different from one day to the next...but it's got nothing to do with the hardware. It's all about the software in your head, and what happens between your ears and your brain. Good mood, bad mood, headache, ingrown toenail, had a fight with the wife, kid wrecked your car, the weather sucks, you won $100 on a scratch-off, the guy at work whom you've despised for the last 30 years keels over in his cubicle...the patch is exactly the same as it was yesterday, but you're not.

 

That was COOL! Ha

[JTSC777]

Used HD500 studio direct/ cabs off into A/DA cab simulator again last night with FRFR speaker.Again I spent no time tweaking my patches as I did before I started using it this way.I could even tweak the mic placement on the A/DA ever so slightly for the room.

Yes the cabs are cool in the HD and thanks to Hurghanico I was able to use them.I just like this a lot better.It is an analog device with all the warmth that comes with that. As far as extraneous stuff goes lol! this little box is nothing compared to all the other crap I have to set up and check before a gig.So since I am really just playing / singing the tunes now when I use my HD instead of playing / singing / thinking about what I need to hop down and tweak between songs I will continue to do it. It has improved everything about this unit.

 

The only other way I use the HD is into the power section( effect return) of one of my tube amps.It shines in that application.But using it with the little A/DA unit gets me damn close to that.

 

The HD pre amps and effects are very good.In my case they need a little help for live performance.The weather is hot again here so my tube amps are taking the summer off and the PODs time to shine is here!

[J_V_RO]

the patch is exactly the same as it was yesterday, but you're not.

 

Best line I have ever read since I started with my pod XT live +10 years ago.