Midi CC Feature desperately needed

[tobmiy]

Hey There! Love love love my Helix.

 

However, I noticed a feature that I REALLY need regarding the Midi CC Command for footswitches. There is no Dim Value for these which is problematic. I'm trying to control my Boss RC-505 looper through Midi and it works great EXCEPT it will only fire the the first time. Any subsequent commands are permenentaly stuck at whatever MIDI value I sent it rather than going back to zero so it can reset for the next command firing. If I can get a DIM value, like on the Midi Toggle but for the Momentary MIDI CC command that would really make my rig a dream come true. 

 

I figure that'd be an easy thing to add in a future update but I could be wrong. What are the chances of that happening? 

[phil_m]

I must be missing something... Why not just use the CC Toggle command?

[gbbaker]

Hello,  with over 30 years using MIDI I have not run across the term "DIM" - so I am assuming that is a RC-505 term.  If what you are trying to do is control this unit from some of the footswitches on the Helix you my wish to go to CustomTone site and download my patch MIDI CONTROL 1.  There are extensive notes describing how to use the Helix to control a DAW Record, Start, Stop, Pause and Rewind using the Helix.  It should be very similar, if not exact, in controlling your looper.  Your RC-505 manual should have a MIDI Spec Sheet with the commands to do what you want and if so, just change my commands to those items.

 

Then again . . . . . ..   UUUU ... What Phil_m said!

 

Good luck,

 

Bo Baker 

[knoxdaz10]

Hello,  with over 30 years using MIDI I have not run across the term "DIM" - so I am assuming that is a RC-505 term.  If what you are trying to do is control this unit from some of the footswitches on the Helix you my wish to go to CustomTone site and download my patch MIDI CONTROL 1.  There are extensive notes describing how to use the Helix to control a DAW Record, Start, Stop, Pause and Rewind using the Helix.  It should be very similar, if not exact, in controlling your looper.  Your RC-505 manual should have a MIDI Spec Sheet with the commands to do what you want and if so, just change my commands to those items.

 

Then again . . . . . ..   UUUU ... What Phil_m said!

 

Good luck,

 

Bo Baker 

midi dim value is a helix term. when you goto cc toggle for a footswitch, in the options it gives you a dim value and a lit value. (which mean the footswitch when dim, is just not on, and lit is on.

the problem im having aswell is that it works fine in cc toggle mode but u have to press the footswitch a few times to make it work. in the rc 505 we are given cc# 1 to 95, and a toggle or moment switch. so what i think we need for helix is a way to reset it to the start or something. i just got it today so ill post more when i fiddle with it abit. theres a guy on youtube when you search for "boss rc 505 midi" he has hooked this up to a hardware sequencer 

would be awesome if someone could watch this and see how we would set up the helix to control the boss rc 505. will be a dream rig if possible. thx guys

[phil_m]

midi dim value is a helix term. when you goto cc toggle for a footswitch, in the options it gives you a dim value and a lit value. (which mean the footswitch when dim, is just not on, and lit is on.

the problem im having aswell is that it works fine in cc toggle mode but u have to press the footswitch a few times to make it work. in the rc 505 we are given cc# 1 to 95, and a toggle or moment switch. so what i think we need for helix is a way to reset it to the start or something. i just got it today so ill post more when i fiddle with it abit. theres a guy on youtube when you search for "boss rc 505 midi" he has hooked this up to a hardware sequencer 

would be awesome if someone could watch this and see how we would set up the helix to control the boss rc 505. will be a dream rig if possible. thx guys

 

It doesn't look like there's a fixed MIDI map for the RC-505, so that means you can assign whatever CC you want to control the various functions. Again, though, you generally wouldn't use the Helix's MIDI CC Toggle command for this. You would just use a standard MIDI CC. The CC Toggle is for controlling effects that have a set range of values for on and another range for off. Like you might see a pedal that says something like CC#30, 0-63 off, and 64-128 on. That's what you'd use the toggle for. For everything just use the plain MIDI CC. That way whenever you step on that footswitch, that CC with that value gets shot out.

[DBCrocky]

So the there are two CC type of commands.  The first is the CC Momentary command, you press the footswitch and it sends the Midi CC message.

 

The second is the CC Toggle type command.  You put in two CC values.  The first time you hit the switch, it sends the first Midi CC message, the second time you hit the switch, it sends the second Midi CC message.

 

I am having a hard time understanding exactly what you are asking for.  I am sorry, but watching a 20 minute video on the Boss RC 505 is not in my future.  I did look that the rc505 manual and I see that you can assign CC#1 to #31 and CC#64 to #95 to various functions within the unit.  What exactly are you trying to do.  Or - what MIDI messages are you trying to send on what action?

[knoxdaz10]

thx for the replies guys, momentary cc does'nt work with the rc 505. i can get  toggle cc to work, which is weird. so yeh i have to assign 2 foot switches on the helix, 1 to turn on the loop start record, and another foot switch to stop the record. so thats not much good. and also it never remembers what it triggered last, so u have to do a "prepare stomp" on the helix to get it to work the next time you stomp. i wonder if i could get a soft step midi foot controller and use that 

[The_Elf]

Just hitting this problem myself. It would appear that something is going amiss and it points at the RC-505.

 

I'm trying to assign a Helix footswitch to the RC-505's Rec/Play function.

 

With the Helix in MIDI CC mode and the RC-505 in Toggle mode:

The first Helix control message fires the Rec function, but any further Helix-generated commands are ignored.

 

With the Helix in MIDI CC mode and the RC-505 in Momentary mode:

All commands from the Helix are ignored.

 

With the Helix in MIDI CC Toggle mode and the RC-505 in Toggle mode:

This *almost* works, but the Helix footswitch has to be pressed twice for every single action to be activated on the RC-505. So close!

 

With the Helix in MIDI CC Toggle mode and the RC-505 in Momentary mode:

Identical to when the RC-505 is in Toggle mode, as above. The Helix footswitch has to be pressed twice for every action to be activated on the RC-505.

 

I think the problem is with the RC-505.

 

Anyone found a way around this? It's a shame, because this pairing were almost made for each other, but for this gaping chasm!

[litesnsirens]

I think the issue is that when you want to use a momentary feature via midi from the helix, it doesn’t work.  It sends the cc to complete whatever function but then that function is on.  And there is no way to turn it off.  By definition, “momentary” should mean that it is on while you are holding down the footswitch and off when you let it go.   So there should be an option to assign a zero value to the release of the footswitch. I’ve enquired about this, upvoted others requests for this on IdeaScale, I’m just waiting for a fix.  I use the helix to control my voice live 3 via midi.  I would like to be able to have momentary harmonies, which is possible on the voice live 3 itself, but I just use the CC and not the CC toggle, it just turns on the harrmony and then it’s on until you find some other way to turn it off.  In ideaacale it’s currently in the “in progress” status, so I’m hopeful.  It’s probably the most immediate feature I would like to see added.

[The_Elf]

Yes, I suppose the Helix should send out a value 0 on release. Maybe not the RC-505 at fault then...

[phil_m]

16 minutes ago, The_Elf said:

Yes, I suppose the Helix should send out a value 0 on release. Maybe not the RC-505 at fault than...

 

Can't you do that with the CC Toggle? I believe the Toggle can be set up to be momentary as well, so it goes to the lit value while you hold the footswitch down and then back to the dim value with the footswitch released.

[The_Elf]

With 'Toggle' the Helix only sends the dim value when you press the footswitch a second time - so you have to make two presses for record, two presses for play, two presses for overdub - it's not a sensible way to work.

[phil_m]

11 minutes ago, The_Elf said:

With 'Toggle' the Helix only sends the dim value when you press the footswitch a second time - so you have to make two presses for record, two presses for play, two presses for overdub - it's not a sensible way to work.

 

Yes, when set to latching it would work that way, but if you set to Momentary and Toggle, I believe it will send the Dim value as soon as you release the footswitch.

[The_Elf]

No it doesn't That's the problem. Nothing is sent on the lift of the switch when 'Momentary' is selected. I've proved this by recording the MIDI output.

[phil_m]

4 minutes ago, The_Elf said:

No it doesn't That's the problem. Nothing is sent on the lift of the switch when 'Momentary' is selected.

 

No, I'm saying select the CC Toggle command and set the function of the switch itself to be Momentary instead of Latching.

 

 

It's been awhile since I've messed with this, but I believe you might need to have a block assigned to that footswitch in order to set it to momentary. But once you do that, you can set its behavior to momentary or latching in the Bypass Assign Screen. So just assign a dummy block, like a Gain block to that footswitch and then set the command.

 

 

[The_Elf]

How? 'Toggle' and 'Momentary' are mutually exclusive.

[phil_m]

2 minutes ago, The_Elf said:

How? 'Toggle' and 'Momentary' are mutually exclusive.

 

No, see my post above... Each footswitch on the Helix can be set to be "Momentary" or "Latching" in the Bypass Assign screen. This behavior is independent of what you do in the Command Center.

 

Thinking back, I know I've done this before with the CC Toggle command.

[The_Elf]

Ok, I'll take a look when I'm back in the studio. Thanks.

[The_Elf]

Clever!

 

It's a bit of a fudge, in that it seems I have to create a block to hang the footswitches on, so I created a row of dummy Send blocks to an unused output. Once created I could then assign the switch, and also assign it to a MIDI CC in Command Center (sic). In the Bypass Assign screen I set it to 'Momentary', and in Command Center I set it to 'Toggle'. I then named the switches to something friendly: 'Loop 1', 'Loop 2'...

 

It looks odd, but it works. Thanks, mate! It seems like some odd, unintended consequence of an interplay between the Bypass Assign setting and the Control Center setting - I'd guess it's actually a bit of a bug. How you discovered this I can only wonder!

[litesnsirens]

This little work-around worked for me too.  Thanks Phil_m.  My gigs just got a whole lot easier.

[litesnsirens]

While I am seriously enjoying the fact that I can use the work around, did I catch on the 2.8 video from namm that this has now been officially addressed?  It was hard to tell...I heard and saw something briefly flash on the screen about momentary cc then it went on to a demonstration using helix to control the slide show.  Which probably to others was the more exciting reveal.

[phil_m]

15 minutes ago, litesnsirens said:

While I am seriously enjoying the fact that I can use the work around, did I catch on the 2.8 video from namm that this has now been officially addressed?  It was hard to tell...I heard and saw something briefly flash on the screen about momentary cc then it went on to a demonstration using helix to control the slide show.  Which probably to others was the more exciting reveal.

 

Yes, they’re adding CC Toggle, CV Toggle, and EXT AMP Toggle as actual commands in the Command Center. So you won’t have to do the workaround I mentioned.

[litesnsirens]

Thanks phil_m.  At this point it’s really just a curiosity for me. By the time the update comes out I will likely have used the workaround on every preset that I need it for.  I’m not sure there would be any real need to go back and change things once they are working.  That’s not a slight or complaint about how long it’s going to take to get the update out, it’s more of a statement about how excited I am to get this functionality completed in my set up.  That said, going forward I can use the update for any future presets.  This Helix is the gift that keeps on giving, the deeper I get into it’s capabilities the more fulfilling my gigging life becomes.  

[The_Elf]

It will be good to see a genuine way of doing this. I suspect the update and fix will likely break this workaround entirely, assuming it was the exploitation of a bug-ette.

 

Do we know when the update is arriving?

[zolko60]

No, nobody knows. Scheduled for spring. The spring lasts three months. Delays happen.

[phil_m]

1 hour ago, The_Elf said:

It will be good to see a genuine way of doing this. I suspect the update and fix will likely break this workaround entirely, assuming it was the exploitation of a bug-ette.

 

Do we know when the update is arriving?

 

I wouldn't expect the update to break the previous functionality. What the update is doing is adding another way to access the momentary/latching functionality of the switches. Right now it's only possible if you have a block assigned to a switch, but in the future, you'll be able to do it without having a block assigned and just a command. There's no reason for the update to get rid of the current behavior, though. It's not a bug. It was just a limitation that they decided to address.

[The_Elf]

If I wanted the switches to remain as toggles in Command Center, separate from their momentary behaviour in Bypass Control I'd call it a bug! Those two functions shouldn't be tied up with each other! We'll have to agree to differ on that one.

 

Anyway, hopefully this will all be water under the bridge with the update.

 

Thanks for all the advice and info - you've been a star!

[katerlouis]

I'm glad to see this topic is discussed so intensively right when I am going into controlling different devices with the Helix, myself! I also want to use the Helix with a looper, but am still figuring out if my new iPad Pro can handle the job, before I give the RC-505 a shot. 

 

Anyhow.. when I tried out an Ableton workflow, I had a similar, if not the same issue. Being new to MIDI I figured I did a mistake. But today I tried to configure a great iOS looping app (Quantiloop) via MIDI and discovered the following:

 

 

I had the footswitch assigned to MIDI CC #80 value 127 – the app can "learn" the foot switch, like Ableton and others can. (Great! Haven't seen this very often in the iOS world so far) – It

Also: the app has assignments for "longpress" and "double tap" aswell– and whenever I tapped the switch once, the "longpress" action would be triggered right after it. 

 

It is hard for me to wrap my head around these things. My question now is, if the apps interpretation of the footswitch, saying its "latching", just confirms the issue discussed in this thread or is there something else I get wrong?

 

like @The_Elf, I'd say this is a bug. 

 

offtopic: 

@tobmiy – if you are an iOS user, I highly suggest checking out the app "Quantiloop" – Researching loopers myself and having a clear vision of what I need and how I want to control it, Quantiloop has a feature I haven't seen in any other soft- and/or hardware solution. You can record a loop and the app then calculates the TEMPO AND THE BARS you just played. I had deep conversations with Power-Ableton-Users about this and they all said this would be practically impossible / highly unreliable if attempted. In my few hours playing around with Quantiloop now.. it was 100% reliable! – Again: you just play your thing, .. and everything after that will be quantized to the tempo you just played! So Amazing!

[phil_m]

56 minutes ago, katerlouis said:

I'm glad to see this topic is discussed so intensively right when I am going into controlling different devices with the Helix, myself! I also want to use the Helix with a looper, but am still figuring out if my new iPad Pro can handle the job, before I give the RC-505 a shot. 

 

Anyhow.. when I tried out an Ableton workflow, I had a similar, if not the same issue. Being new to MIDI I figured I did a mistake. But today I tried to configure a great iOS looping app (Quantiloop) via MIDI and discovered the following:

 

 

I had the footswitch assigned to MIDI CC #80 value 127 – the app can "learn" the foot switch, like Ableton and others can. (Great! Haven't seen this very often in the iOS world so far) – It

Also: the app has assignments for "longpress" and "double tap" aswell– and whenever I tapped the switch once, the "longpress" action would be triggered right after it. 

 

It is hard for me to wrap my head around these things. My question now is, if the apps interpretation of the footswitch, saying its "latching", just confirms the issue discussed in this thread or is there something else I get wrong?

 

like @The_Elf, I'd say this is a bug. 

 

offtopic: 

@tobmiy – if you are an iOS user, I highly suggest checking out the app "Quantiloop" – Researching loopers myself and having a clear vision of what I need and how I want to control it, Quantiloop has a feature I haven't seen in any other soft- and/or hardware solution. You can record a loop and the app then calculates the TEMPO AND THE BARS you just played. I had deep conversations with Power-Ableton-Users about this and they all said this would be practically impossible / highly unreliable if attempted. In my few hours playing around with Quantiloop now.. it was 100% reliable! – Again: you just play your thing, .. and everything after that will be quantized to the tempo you just played! So Amazing!

 

With the plain MIDI CC function, the momentary and latching functionality don't have any bearing on how the footswitch functions. It will always simply be a trigger - if you hit that footswitch, that CC with the assigned value will be shot out. It doesn't matter if you have that footswitch set up as momentary or latching. It's simply a trigger that always sends out that command.

 

Again, there's no bug at play here. It's simply the designed functionality and a limitation of the current implementation of the commands in the Command Center. A bug is when something unforeseen or unpredictable. The behavior as it stands now is completely predictable and understandable within the current framework. If you want to assign a momentary functionality to a footswitch, you have to have a block assigned to the footswitch. That will change with the 2.8 firmware, at least to an extent.

[amor4jc-2]

Ran into this issue some time ago. The way I finally solved it was to link a foot switch to a block (say an EQ or gain block). When doing so, set the block/switch to "momentary" and confirm it's switching the block on and of in a momentary fashion. Next, go into the control center, select that same foot switch and set up a latching CC with the values you need. Doesn't make sense, but it works.

 

Stumbled onto this after a long aggravating session....

[The_Elf]

Yep, that precisely the solution that we've discussed above. I use 'Send 3' blocks, since that's unused for me and and anyway can't cause any unforseen glitches.

 

The only significant problem I've run into that I seem to get the odd situation where certain Snapshots send out a pedal press and I've had to go in and delete/re-assign the switches all over again to cure it.

 

I played the first live show last night with the configuration and all went well..

[katerlouis]

I still have a hard time getting my head around this. 

If I understand you guys correctly the main issue you are fighting it recreating a momentary toggle, where releasing sets a function back to zero.

 

But how about this usecase:

in Ableton Lives Session View you press this button to activate overdub, for instance. I mapped this to a MIDI CC command coming from the Helix.

But with MIDI CC you still need to set a value higher than 63 to switch it on and a value less than or equal to 63 to switch it off. Helix MIDI CC only fires one value, so I either make 2 stomps to switch on and off, or I do a toggle, which kinda makes sense, since the function in Ableton literally is a toggle. 

 

Buuut, if you go the toggle route, the Helix toggle doesn't react to when the switch gets pressed by the mouse, for instance. And vice versa, of course, when you switch the Function on via mouse and want to deactivate it via Helix. So you always have to keep the two in sync, which is not very practical.

 

 

 

There must be a way to say via MIDI "just press this button, like a mouse would do, and don't care about any values"

 

Or is there a way to let Ableton tell the Helix to change its toggle status whenever the function is changed from other sources than the Helix?

[phil_m]

2 hours ago, katerlouis said:

I still have a hard time getting my head around this. 

If I understand you guys correctly the main issue you are fighting it recreating a momentary toggle, where releasing sets a function back to zero.

 

But how about this usecase:

in Ableton Lives Session View you press this button to activate overdub, for instance. I mapped this to a MIDI CC command coming from the Helix.

But with MIDI CC you still need to set a value higher than 63 to switch it on and a value less than or equal to 63 to switch it off. Helix MIDI CC only fires one value, so I either make 2 stomps to switch on and off, or I do a toggle, which kinda makes sense, since the function in Ableton literally is a toggle. 

 

Buuut, if you go the toggle route, the Helix toggle doesn't react to when the switch gets pressed by the mouse, for instance. And vice versa, of course, when you switch the Function on via mouse and want to deactivate it via Helix. So you always have to keep the two in sync, which is not very practical.

 

 

 

There must be a way to say via MIDI "just press this button, like a mouse would do, and don't care about any values"

 

Or is there a way to let Ableton tell the Helix to change its toggle status whenever the function is changed from other sources than the Helix?

 

The new QWERTY functionality that's coming to the Command Center in the 2.8 firmware sounds like it will do what you're talking about.

[katerlouis]

3 hours ago, phil_m said:

 

The new QWERTY functionality that's coming to the Command Center in the 2.8 firmware sounds like it will do what you're talking about.

 

So you are suggesting to map the HELIX footstomp to "F" on the keyboard for instance, and then map Ableton to press Session Record on "F"? :D 

What if I have Guitar Pro open at the same time? I doubt that the Helix would still fire the F to Ableton, but instead fire it to Guitar Pro, right? :D

[phil_m]

3 minutes ago, katerlouis said:

So you are suggesting to map the HELIX footstomp to "F" on the keyboard for instance, and then map Ableton to press Session Record on "F"? :D  

 

Yes.

 

3 minutes ago, katerlouis said:

What if I have Guitar Pro open at the same time? I doubt that the Helix would still fire the F to Ableton, but instead fire it to Guitar Pro, right? :D

 

It would depend on whether or not you have the Helix enabled as a MIDI over USB device in Guitar Pro.

[katerlouis]

No, I haven't used the Helix for other Software on my Macbook yet- but if I would, there might be interferences with your suggested solution. But I assume the Helix will support modifier keys aswell (CMD, ALT, SHIFT etc.)- so surely there will be a key configuration which won't collide with any other software. It's not like everything is listening to MIDI :D 

 

The Important part is, that Ableton does not have to be up front in order to receive the command from Helix. But it sounds like this would work then, though- 

I've asked the same question on Abletons Subreddit; apparently Ableton is capable of telling the Helix to switch it's toggl. I'll tell you when I got it worked out :)

 

Until then, I'll try to narrow down why Quantiloop is triggering the longpress on my MIDI CC commands :D

[katerlouis]

Maybe you want to take a look at that @phil_m?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/an11xx/please_help_understanding_midi_controls_in/

 

I have (and had) set up Ableton like the commenter explained there; but still Helix' CC toggle doesn't react to a change with the mouse.

[phil_m]

7 minutes ago, katerlouis said:

Maybe you want to take a look at that @phil_m?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ableton/comments/an11xx/please_help_understanding_midi_controls_in/

 

I have (and had) set up Ableton like the commenter explained there; but still Helix' CC toggle doesn't react to a change with the mouse.

 

The Helix doesn't have any feature that would track changes from Ableton like that. So, yeah, if you push a button with a mouse in Ableton that you also have set up to be controlled by the Helix, the dim/lit state on the Helix is going to get misaligned with what's happening in Ableton. There's no way around that.

[katerlouis]

Another suggestion on my reddit post is rooted in this forum :D

https://line6.com/support/topic/20120-controlling-ableton-with-helix/

 

Apparently you can use Note-send for that;

I will look into that later.