Good Classic rock settings

[themetallikid]

Ok...sorry to bother you all with this question....but I've always had a hard time dialing in that light/medium crunch sound for Classic Rock type tones.  I can get the heavy stuff down ok, and my clean/slight breakup stuff is ok....but getting that next level of saturation/gain seems to elude me.

 

I'm guessing part may be because of EMG's maybe, but I would think there would be a way to compensate that in the settings of the Drive/Master.  Songs I'm referring to are American Band, Boys Are Back In Town type stuff.  It always seems like to get enough 'crunch' out of it I have to put the drive higher than it feels it should be for that tone, and then it gets too (for lack of a better description) stiff and preampy sounding. 

 

I usually start by bringing up the Master to above 7.5 or so to get that power section working, then try to find the sweet spot for the Drive that gets me in the ball park.  Then play with the sag/bias settings to help with the 'feel' of the attack and body of the notes.  Usually that will result in reducing the Drive a bit to keep me in the same area of crunch I'm looking for....

 

It sounds like a modern amp doing classic sounds though and doesn't sound authentic to me.  Maybe I'm using the wrong cab sims to achieve it as well??

 

I've also tried using a TS808 or other pedal and they all just make it sound tighter (go figure huh?) rather than helping to push the amp where I want it to go. 

 

 

 

Any suggestions on amp/settings?  I usually start with the Plexi type model and when I can't seem to get that 'right' for my ears I start looking at Plexi-like models to maybe do something it wasn't for me.  I'm sure it really is just something I'm doing or not doing, or maybe my ears are just jacked.....

 

Thanks in advance.

[brue58ski]

Have you tried using the pad or changing the impedance settings?

[steelstringer]

I like the Park Bright (Brit 75) for classic rock. I start with the LA compressor, and I use an EQ to filter out some lows. I also use the Valve Driver in front of it. It seems more dynamic than the Plexi bright to me. Try it out.

[DunedinDragon]

Chances are what you're looking to achieve is what I refer to as the "strained" chunkiness like you hear in songs like the Doobie Brothers 'China Grove' riff.  With a slight bit of bite and crunch but it sounds like it's kind of straining to get there.  This typically comes from a moderate amount of gain on a humbucker guitar that has some compression added up front.  Not a lot of compression, but just enough so you know it's there and it smooths out the punchiness.

 

The way I normally achieve that is using a HiWatt since it has a bit more manageable and flexible gain, but you could probably get it with any amp.  The key is to get just the right amount of gain, crunchy but with good clarity and articulation.  I then use the LA Compressor in front of the amp and set the gain on that compressor around 4.5 to 5.  Basically, you want to compress it to the point that the overall volume is roughly the same when the compressor is on or off so that you're left with just the compression and not and volume increase.  I put the Peak Reduction up around 9.0 as well as the Mix up around 9.0.  You can play around with raising the Emphasis as that can sometimes help with the effect depending on your tone.  For lead lines I'll use the Teemah or Minotaur typically.  The Screamer is good if you need more of a overdriven lead sound.

 

The key to all of this is to manage the gain and not give in to making it sound too overdriven.

 

Hope that helps..

[themetallikid]

Yes guys, thank you for those tips, I'll take a look at those and play around with them.  I'll be honest I'm compressor illiterate.  I understand what they do, and I get generally how they work.....but just cannot become 'fluent' in working with parameters especially across different models (I have some of this issue with other effects as well too).  I've read a few posts where people have put Compressors in front of amps to help drive them a bit or for what you mentioned...I'll have to check it out.

 

 

Yes you are correct...the two tones I struggle with the most is that Clean up front, but spongy type after taste.   I think of Takin Care of Business type tone, then adding a TS808 or something to help give  bit more sustain or liquid to the notes for leads.  The 2nd is going to be just that classic Plexi Classic Rock sound from a cranked amp...but this is where I really struggle getting that nice breakup without it sounding to snarly.  I'll try your settings Duned, and see what happens. 

 

I appreciate the info.

[themetallikid]

The pad impedance.....

 

this is something that I need to also explore.  My lack of knowledge in this area has kept me from playing with things I don't know about.

[jbuhajla]

The pad impedance.....

 

this is something that I need to also explore.  My lack of knowledge in this area has kept me from playing with things I don't know about.

Pad is probably a necessity since you are playing EMGs. "Classic Rock" was in the vintage type pickup era. Pad will cut the output from your EMGs down to be more manageable on the front end of the amps you are trying to get your crunch from. 

[MusicLaw]

Also see Tone Templates at: http://line6.com/tone-templates/ Or, via the footer link on any Line6.com website page.

 

These PDFs are good references of various artists' rig configurations, and are a useful starting point to cook your own tasty Presets!

[DunedinDragon]

The 2nd is going to be just that classic Plexi Classic Rock sound from a cranked amp...but this is where I really struggle getting that nice breakup without it sounding to snarly.  I'll try your settings Duned, and see what happens. 

 

I appreciate the info.

 

This is where you're likely going to have to address the Pad on your EMGs.  It's probably why you can't get the gain adjusted as you would expect.  The signal coming in is just too hot.

[lawrence_Arps]

_{In general these tonesare cleaner in reality than they seem when you listen to the mix...Over the years I slowly moved my classic crunch to being much cleaner and now its more like the classic recordings...but it needs a fair bit of volume in the room to really work for the player.}

[themetallikid]

_{In general these tonesare cleaner in reality than they seem when you listen to the mix...Over the years I slowly moved my classic crunch to being much cleaner and now its more like the classic recordings...but it needs a fair bit of volume in the room to really work for the player.}

 

 

I can see this for sure.  Tweaking in my headphones always gives a false sense of the gain/crunch on a preset and live, while I play direct, I do have a wedge that I feed my guitar through, and am usually pleasantly surprised by having to dial back some things.  Though I do have a good ear for our FOH system and how it translates to my ears already.  

 

I'll play with the pad, as I was fairly confident as well that the EMG's were probably sending too hot a signal as well and its hard to dial that out.  

[robbieb61]

_{In general these tonesare cleaner in reality than they seem when you listen to the mix...Over the years I slowly moved my classic crunch to being much cleaner and now its more like the classic recordings...but it needs a fair bit of volume in the room to really work for the player.}

Yep, a lot of those tones are pretty clean on albums.  Don't sound too powerful "live" though.

 

If you were to match up the tone on the record of "Honky Tonk Women" for instance and nailed it perfectly...it would sound REAL wimpy in a live band. 

That's why "Keef" plays live with a lot more gain in his tone. And "back in the day" (the late 1960's and the 1970's and 1980's) he played live with a pretty heavy guitar tone that was nothing like the mild guitar tones on the Stones albums.

Listen to "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out" Or "Love You Live" and you get the idea.

 

The best thing, in my opinion is to get a good, fat warm sound without too much bottom end on it for classic rock. My band covers a lot of  70's classic stuff including "Taking Care Of Business" by BTO and "Long Train Runnin" by The Doobie Brothers. 

For that rhythm sound I'm using the "Litigator" amp with the drive on "8" and the mids on "10" and running it through an Ownhammer Marshall cab IR. 

 

Then for my slightly heavier crunch sound for 80's style classic rock I use the Archenon lead model with the drive at around "5" (that model has lots of nice bottom for a nice heavy crunch)

[ditpib]

For Boys Are Back in Town, use the neck pickup. Use the AUX IN with EMG's, not the guitar input. Then pad it if you're still getting too much compression with the EMG's. Those pickups have no dynamics compared to passive.

[GenoBluzGtr]

Not sure if it works for all guitars, but something I have noticed is that i get a much better 'raw' grind... more open and transparent, if i drop the Master and bump up the Channel Volume to compensate.   I, like you, started with the master and found that I ended up with master and channel levels essentially equal or master a bit higher.   I found a couple of free presets on customtone that sounded great, and i noticed they had lower masters and higher channel levels.  So I went back to a few of my presets and did that, and it opened things up AMAZINGLY well!!   It's now my go-to scheme unless I want smoother, less dynamic drive.  

 

Another couple of tips i've picked up from here and other forums that have really helped me a lot ... 

1. Add an Optical Trem to the end of your signal chain (the very end) and set Speed to 0, Intensity to 0 or 1, and adjust the output level to taste (I usually have it between 0 and 2) - it adds that "open and airy" flavor that makes me think I'm playing through a tube amp.  
 

2. Use a Parametric EQ somewhere after the amp and cab (or IR).  Placing it in different spots alters the impact, but I find this works WONDERS for taking that 'edge' off the tone... It doesn't dull it at all, but it fattens and rounds things so it sounds less like a simulation and more like the real thing.    I tend to put my Parametric EQ second to the end of the chain right before the Optical Trem. 

 

3. Tweak the Cab or IR level a bit.  Higher output level tends to make it louder but also more raw and somewhat dark.  setting the output level between 3 and 5 can sometimes yield a "sweet spot" that just sounds right.

 

4. Be careful of where you place Distortions, EQs and Compressors.  Do an experiment... Make a chain that sounds okay... use a compressor, a distortion and a couple of EQs... then, as you play, move them around one at a time and hear the differences...  just swapping the order of two blocks changes the sound completely... more nasally, more or less sustain, more or less "woody", etc...  Make note of these changes. As you build patches, and you wonder what you do to give you sound 'X'... refer back to those notes and remind yourself that using block A and block B in reverse order tends to give me sound Y.    Also, don't discount that putting certain blocks in a parallel path causes some changes in tone that you don't expect.  Just dropping a 'verb or delay from serial-post-cab to parallel can brighten things up with zero parameter tweaks. 

 

5. Finally, once you get a patch built, but not quite happy with it, look for blocks that have minimal or negative impact on the overall tone.  I call this my "bypass tweaking".  I'll play, then one at a time I'll hit the bypass button on each block and see what it does to my final sound.  I see some patches where folks add this here and that there to compensate for some setting further up or down the chain.  I find that, instead of compensating, I tend like patches better where i "fix" the issue rather than add more blocks. A good tone can be a great tone with fewer blocks... for the most part.  

[DunedinDragon]

Yep, a lot of those tones are pretty clean on albums.  Don't sound too powerful "live" though.

 

If you were to match up the tone on the record of "Honky Tonk Women" for instance and nailed it perfectly...it would sound REAL wimpy in a live band. 

That's why "Keef" plays live with a lot more gain in his tone. And "back in the day" (the late 1960's and the 1970's and 1980's) he played live with a pretty heavy guitar tone that was nothing like the mild guitar tones on the Stones albums.

Listen to "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out" Or "Love You Live" and you get the idea.

 

The best thing, in my opinion is to get a good, fat warm sound without too much bottom end on it for classic rock. My band covers a lot of  70's classic stuff including "Taking Care Of Business" by BTO and "Long Train Runnin" by The Doobie Brothers. 

For that rhythm sound I'm using the "Litigator" amp with the drive on "8" and the mids on "10" and running it through an Ownhammer Marshall cab IR. 

 

Then for my slightly heavier crunch sound for 80's style classic rock I use the Archenon lead model with the drive at around "5" (that model has lots of nice bottom for a nice heavy crunch)

 

What's interesting in this regard is that, even though I agree with what you're saying in terms of live versus studio back in the day, it appears much of that is reversing itself more recently in their live performances.  I think some of that may be due to the fact that the live systems have gotten so much better they can get a better reproduction of the original sound, which wasn't always very true until more recently.  I've just noticed that more consistently with some of these classic band live performances particularly the Doobie Brothers but some others as well like ELO.  I also know that back in the day more gain meant more excitement and it was more or less the expectation, and maybe not so much nowdays.

 

I do think even now if you're dealing with getting people onto the dance floor, more gain can be useful.  Although I also have to add overuse of higher gain is one of the more prominent issues I see in younger bands.  It's just interesting to note how the trend seems to have reversed itself in the last few years with some of these acts.

[themetallikid]

 - I will definitely try the Optical Trem trick and see how that affects it. 

 

 - For gain, I usually try to dial in what sounds right for the cd, then add a bit more for live use.  I'm not a gain-a-holic, and actually try to play with cleaner gain than I probably should sometimes. 

 

 

 

I will say that for the presets I've worked on already, I played with the Input Pad and added the compressor settings that Duned referred to...and they worked great.  Its still not perfect to my ears, but with guitar/pickups/non-original gear its much closer than I was before.  Thanks again!

[robbieb61]

What's interesting in this regard is that, even though I agree with what you're saying in terms of live versus studio back in the day, it appears much of that is reversing itself more recently in their live performances.  I think some of that may be due to the fact that the live systems have gotten so much better they can get a better reproduction of the original sound, which wasn't always very true until more recently.  I've just noticed that more consistently with some of these classic band live performances particularly the Doobie Brothers but some others as well like ELO.  I also know that back in the day more gain meant more excitement and it was more or less the expectation, and maybe not so much nowdays.

 

I do think even now if you're dealing with getting people onto the dance floor, more gain can be useful.  Although I also have to add overuse of higher gain is one of the more prominent issues I see in younger bands.  It's just interesting to note how the trend seems to have reversed itself in the last few years with some of these acts.

I've noticed some of that too.

 

I think a lot of it is better amp quality and maintenance. Back in the "old days" these guys and their guitar techs were so wasted on the road...literally shooting heroin and drinking massive amounts of booze while playing to audiences. So when the tubes needed to be changed and the amp needed to be biased, it may not have been done.  So they might have just cranked the gain up to compensate and get some "feel".

 

But these days...the music industry is ALL touring. Tours used to be a way to promote your album. Now they ARE the product (which is why ticket prices are so high).

Bands take it a lot more seriously these days. 

 

And the reality is that there are so many GREAT sounding amps that come right "out of the box". Back in the "old days", if you had that "special" Fender amp...you never took it on the road. It was studio use only.

 

These days? You can get a myriad of amps "right off the shelf" that are the equivalent of what used to be "one of a kind" custom made amps back then.

 

The result is that "yes", some of these bands are now able to go back and listen to their own stuff from 40 and 50 years ago and replicate the tone without losing any "ooomph" for the band. 

 

For instance, I saw the Eagles here in Vegas a couple of years back (before the death of Glen Frey)...and Joe Walsh had the MOST gorgeous "woody" tone I had ever heard from a live band. Just incredible.

 

Also...keep in mind that the classic rock bands are a lot like me...getting old! LOL!  

So maybe they are getting "soft" with their gain.   :lol:

[CraigGT]

Yep, a lot of those tones are pretty clean on albums.  Don't sound too powerful "live" though.

 

If you were to match up the tone on the record of "Honky Tonk Women" for instance and nailed it perfectly...it would sound REAL wimpy in a live band. 

That's why "Keef" plays live with a lot more gain in his tone. And "back in the day" (the late 1960's and the 1970's and 1980's) he played live with a pretty heavy guitar tone that was nothing like the mild guitar tones on the Stones albums.

Listen to "Get Yer Ya-Ya's Out" Or "Love You Live" and you get the idea.

 

I saw the Stones live a couple of weeks ago and the guitars sounded great, all they had on stage was a pair of Fender combo's each but who's to say what was been worked on for them behind the scenes.

 

Craig

[robbieb61]

I saw the Stones live a couple of weeks ago and the guitars sounded great, all they had on stage was a pair of Fender combo's each but who's to say what was been worked on for them behind the scenes.

 

Craig

I know that during the 1981 tour, and for a long time after that, they were using Mesa Boogie amps.  And they have them under the stage pointing up through big sections of the stage that are grills so they can hear the amp basically underneath them. And they mic up those Boogie amps. 

 

Having said that...you can see pretty clearly in pictures of their current tour that it certainly does appear that they are using Fender combo amps tilted back and mic'ed up. 

Here is a pretty cool list of his amps over the years, and it says he is using Fender Tweed Twins these days:

Keith Richards’ Guitar Amps:

– Vox AC-30

Seen circa 1963, when Keith still used to play his Harmony Meteor H70 guitar [Reslo & The Rolling Stones 1963].

– Fender Dual Showman

Used from around 1964 to 1966 as Kieth’s main amp.

– Hiwatt Custom 100

Used during the “Let it Bleed†recording sessions.

– Triumph Silicon 100

Used most notably on tremolo parts of the song “Gimme Shelterâ€, although the amp was also used previously on Beggars Banquet sessions. This was a solid state amp featuring built-in tremolo and fuzz effects.

– Ampeg Amps

From 1969 Keith was using Ampegs almost exclusively on-stage, although he kept using wide variety of other amps in studio. He mostly used 120 watt V-4 head and VT-22 combo, and a 60 watt V-2/VT-40.

– Mesa/Boogie Mark 1 A804

Mesa/Boogie amps first appeared during the famous gig at the El Mocambo in 1977, and Kieth got a first glimpse of it some time earlier when Carlos Santana joined the band for a jam using his small Snakeskin combo. Although some sources indicate that Stones used more than 40 different Mesa/Boogie amps over the years, one that is perhaps most notable was a hardwood combo handcrafted personally by Randall Smith. This one was Keith’s favorite and he used it on Stones’ albums Love You Live, Some Girls, Emotional Rescue and Tattoo You, as well as on his solo albums.

– Fender Tweed Twin

Since the early 90s Keith has been using Fender Twin combos as his main amps. His favorite one has a serial number #00003, and it is believed to be the oldest still-working Fender Twin amp.

In a studio setting he usually runs another amp on a separate mic at the same time, – ranging from a Fender Vibro King, Bassman, and Bandmaster, and some other models.

– Oahu Guitar Amp

First used sometime in 1995 (according to Oahu website). The amp is based on a small combo amp made by Valco company from 1945 to 1958, and Keith seems to be using it quite a lot on stage in the more recent days.