Using Headphones with the Helix Floor

[darren1982]

Hi

 

I have read about using headphones with the Helix and that not all headphones are suitable.

 

I have IEM 64 Audio A6t's and i was wondering would they be good enough? I have ordered the Helix and will be arriving next week but was wondering if need to order some more suited headphones.

 

I'm really after a quality headphone that i can use to setup my sounds so they sound identical in a live setting whats coming out front of house. I'll be using a IEM mix when playing live and was hoping the A6t would be good enough!

 

They cost me a fair amount as they are moulded have 6 drivers. https://www.64audio.com/product/A6t-Custom-In-Ear-Monitor

 

I keep hearing about these Beyerdynamic DT-770 Pro but i would hope mine are more superior?

 

Any help would be great!
 

Really looking forward to trying the Helix out!

[BBD_123]

Well, the A6ts look good on paper for sure - and one would hope so at that price. They ought to do the job for you, but I've never tried them so all I can say is that if you don't like them then keep them for live work and spend the modest extra amount on any decent studio quality over-ear headphones you fancy and have done with it. I use the BD BT-770 Pros and they're fine, although by no means the only choice out there.

[MusicLaw]

I would imagine the A6T sound great. Nonetheless, there's no substitute for the room effect that will undoubtedly interact with any FOH system.

 

If you are looking for a closed back set of headphones the BD DT770 Pro are excellent. I have a pair of the 250 Ohm version I use with the Helix Floor and they sound great. They do have their own sound that does take a bit of getting used to -- as do any monitors or headphones. Another pair of very high quality closed back headphones which debuted at the 2019 Winter NAMM show are the Neumann NDH 20. These are now shipping and they simply blew me away when I used them at NAMM. They are not inexpensive at $499 USD, yet they are less than I anticipated. 

 

If you are considering open back headphones, consider the excellent Sennheiser HD650. These are also available from MassDrop, designated the HD6xx, for a significantly reduced price.

[darren1982]

10 hours ago, MusicLaw said:

I would imagine the A6T sound great. Nonetheless, there's no substitute for the room effect that will undoubtedly interact with any FOH system.

 

If you are looking for a closed back set of headphones the BD DT770 Pro are excellent. I have a pair of the 250 Ohm version I use with the Helix Floor and they sound great. They do have their own sound that does take a bit of getting used to -- as do any monitors or headphones. Another pair of very high quality closed back headphones which debuted at the 2019 Winter NAMM show are the Neumann NDH 20. These are now shipping and they simply blew me away when I used them at NAMM. They are not inexpensive at $499 USD, yet they are less than I anticipated. 

 

If you are considering open back headphones, consider the excellent Sennheiser HD650. These are also available from MassDrop, designated the HD6xx, for a significantly reduced price.

Thank you!
 

So when practicing at home are most people just playing through a monitor or speakers? Or whats the best way to use headphones? A headphone or just straight it? 

[BBD_123]

Well, it depends what you want to do, but my home setup is a pair of active KRK Rokit powered studio monitors and the ubiquitous DT770 Pros. Audio clips via the PC, which also runs Helix Edit. Everything goes through a mini-mixer so I can play along to recordings, backing tracks and whatever I'm trying to learn. It works perfectly for me, the mini-mixer was the key that pulled everything together...

 

[darren1982]

3 hours ago, BBD_123 said:

Well, it depends what you want to do, but my home setup is a pair of active KRK Rokit powered studio monitors and the ubiquitous DT770 Pros. Audio clips via the PC, which also runs Helix Edit. Everything goes through a mini-mixer so I can play along to recordings, backing tracks and whatever I'm trying to learn. It works perfectly for me, the mini-mixer was the key that pulled everything together...

 

so you connect your helix floor to the mini mixer via 2x xlr stereo L and R? The from the there you go from 1/4 L/mono to mini jack (mic) into PC or mac? 

 

Does the phones socket sound better in this than straight from the helix? 

 

Again can you not connect the mac direct to the Helix or an iPhone? or it is it best to go through a mixer like the one above?

[BBD_123]

1 hour ago, darren1982 said:

so you connect your helix floor to the mini mixer via 2x xlr stereo L and R? The from the there you go from 1/4 L/mono to mini jack (mic) into PC or mac? 

 

Does the phones socket sound better in this than straight from the helix? 

 

Again can you not connect the mac direct to the Helix or an iPhone? or it is it best to go through a mixer like the one above?

 

Helix to mixer is left and right 1/4" jacks (to line 3+4), PC to mixer is via a converter cable: mini-jack at PC out to Y split L and R 1/4" jacks (to line 5+6). Mixer out to the monitors is XLR, headphones out is dedicated 1/4".

 

The mixer doesn't colour the tone compared to direct out from the Helix.

 

Helix can handle two separate inputs in parallel, so you can have your guitar on input A and your music on input B. But it's often better to have the full power of Helix just for your guitar signal processing. If there is no second input, Helix can combine input A and input B into a single chain for your guitar. Using a mini-mixer is a good way of keeping Helix free just for your guitar.

[darren1982]

 

Hello

 

Ok

 

So i did try out the headphones with the Helix and it does sounds rather bad! I think if i used the Headphones out of the box i would of been disappointed. 

 

So now i'm looking into going down the mini mixer route or a USB interface. Like the Universal Apollo. 

 

The mini mixer is certainly cheaper but is the sound quality of the Universal Apollo going to be that much better? 

 

I use the Helix edit software’s as its nice as easy to edit. I have some powered monitors too (Tannoy Reveal 802) These don’t get used that much as i’m using mainly headphones.

 

I need to be able to use the Helix to get my guitar sounds, Play music on the computer and use programs like Transcribe to you guessed it Transcribe :)

 

Basically I need something that sounds great through the headphones… doesn’t colour the sound and makes it sound like going through a PA and for it to work with the Tannoys. 

 

I do have a Vox air which is great and does everything above but i would like the Helix to function in the same way if that makes sense! 

 

 

 

 

Dean

 

[silverhead]

31 minutes ago, darren1982 said:

 

...

 

Basically I need something that sounds great through the headphones… doesn’t colour the sound and makes it sound like going through a PA and for it to work with the Tannoys. 

....

 

I think that will be difficult. I think virtually all headphones and non-FRFR speakers colour the tone to a significant degree (in fact, that's the very definition of non-FRFR), which is why most players find that setting up presets through headphones does not translate well to the PA/FRFR speakers and vice versa. Don't know if your Tannoys are FRFR but if not you will have three different sounds for the same presets depending on how you are monitoring: headphones, PA, or Tannoys. 

 

The best way to set up your presets for live play, imho, is to use a PA or FRFR speakers and play at gig volume. When using headphones or non-FRFR speakers you should expect to have to tweak the presets to have them sound good. At least that's been my experience and I believe it to be common.

[darren1982]

Can you get small Studio speaker FRFR?

[cruisinon2]

2 minutes ago, darren1982 said:

Can you get small Studio speaker FRFR?

 

Yes... there are numerous options. Stick with the big boys, JBL, Sony, Yamaha, etc. 

[silverhead]

Sure - there are plenty of options. I would recommend no less than 6" speaker but I'm sure plenty of folks are satisfied with 5" - my concern would be getting anywhere near gig volume without crackling, distortion and potential speaker damage.

 

In addition to the manufacturers suggested by cruisinon2 above I know that lots of people are satisfied with the Rockit brand.

[darren1982]

ok thanks!

 

Has anyone tried and tested a lot of these FRFR speakers? Are there any stand outs?

 

I do have a EV ZLX12p

 

https://www.andertons.co.uk/electro-voice-zlx-12p-active-2-way-1000w-loudspeaker-(each)-zlx12p?LGWCODE=ZLX12P;56375;6335&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkIzlBRDzARIsABgXqV_fhPcgIpTfjtqc5ywAS6ajYa9j3l990wj7kHsvtCkG3L6Hadc9XgIaAuk4EALw_wcB

 

Will a FRFR speaker sound much better?

 

Thanks

[silverhead]

There are plenty of existing threads on this topic. Try searching and you should find lots of thoughts and opinions.

[cruisinon2]

25 minutes ago, silverhead said:

 

I think that will be difficult. I think virtually all headphones and non-FRFR speakers colour the tone to a significant degree, which is why most players find that setting up presets through headphones does not translate well to the PA/FRFR speakers and vice versa. Don't know if your Tannoys are FRFR but if not you will have three different sounds for the same presets: headphones, PA, and Tannoys. 

 

The best way to set up your presets for live play, imho, is to use a PA or FRFR speakers and play at gig volume. When using headphones or non-FRFR speakers you should expect to have to tweak the presets to have them sound good. At least that's been my experience and I believe it to be common.

 

Well it really depends on the headphones... if your cans say "Beats" on them, they will be useless for this kind of application. But a decent pair of studio reference headphones should get you similar results to a pair of studio monitors. I've got a set AKG K701's that get me very close to the sound of my JBL monitors... not identical of course, but only very minimal tweaking required to transition from one to the other. 

 

Gig volume through a PA is a completely different ballgame, however... my live patches are EQ'd very differently. Significant volume differences will ruin you every time...can't do an end-run around Fletcher and Munson.

[darren1982]

7 minutes ago, cruisinon2 said:

 

Well it really depends on the headphones... if your cans say "Beats" on them, they will be useless for this kind of application. But a decent pair of studio reference headphones should get you similar results to a pair of studio monitors. I've got a set AKG K701's that get me very close to the sound of my JBL monitors... not identical of course, but only very minimal tweaking required to transition from one to the other. 

 

Gig volume through a PA is a completely different ballgame, however... my live patches are EQ'd very differently. Significant volume differences will ruin you every time...can't do an end-run around Fletcher and Munson.

Are you plugging directly into the helix?

[cruisinon2]

55 minutes ago, darren1982 said:

Are you plugging directly into the helix?

 

Generally no, but I have done it here and there...and I didn't notice any significant difference between the headphone out on Helix and direct monitoring from my Focusrite interface, which is pretty transparent. 

[darren1982]

thanks so much for your replies.

 

I'm going to get some new headphones and see if that makes a difference. Then i'll setup "live sounds" and "practice sounds"

 

One last thing and that might be obvious. 

 

How do i connect my my guitar to helix to the computer so i can use the Helix Edit whilst using headphones. How would i then Jam along to youtube vids, Record to garage band and use transcribe?

 

I know BBD_123 uses a mini mixer. Is that the only way?

[silverhead]

No additional mixer is required. Connect Helix to your computer via USB. It now becomes your computer's soundcard; this should be automatic but you may have to configure your computer's sound settings. Also configure GarageBand to use Helix as its audio input and output device. Connect your headphones to Helix.

 

 

[jbuhajla]

I have found that my cheaper Audio Technica IEM's translate pretty well when comparing playing the tones live through JBL EON610s or QSC k10s. I imagine your IEMs would be even better. I prefer building my tones at home on the JBLs, but that is not an option when the family is sleeping. The QSCs are part of the sound system at church. 

 

I connect my iPhone via USB and camera connection adapter to the Helix to play songs from Spotify, and listen to the songs from USB and my guitar tone by plugging IEMs into Helix phones jack. That leave my iPad or PC to read sheet music at the same time. 

[darren1982]

Whats the Impedance recommendation for the Helix?

 

From the manual it says they need to be high impedance otherwise you get distortion (which i do with my IEM) I have read the higher the impedance the harder it is to drive. 

 

I have come down to a few options 

 

AKG K701  rated 6s ohms

Sennheiser HD 660 s rated 150 ohms or 600 at 250ohms

Beyerdynamic DT 770 or 990 or 1990 80ohms to 250ohms

 

Do i just all of them and A/B them?? :)

 

 

 

 

 

[cruisinon2]

This has been debated ad nauseam over the years.... guys use every impedance rating under the sun. If you like that way Brand X cans sound, use 'em...

[bigcraigie_1]

I'm using the Beyer Dynamic DT770 Pro 80ohm and they sound great. I tried several different makes and models before finally choosing the DT770's and my decision mostly came down to the comfort factor. All headphones I tried in that price bracket all sounded great to be fair, but with the DT770's I can wear them for very long periods of time with no discomfort whatsoever.

 

I'm not entirely sure what the difference in ohms does, but mine are certainly loud enough. I usually have the master output set around 10 o'clock and that's ample.

 

 

[cruisinon2]

41 minutes ago, bigcraigie_1 said:

I'm not entirely sure what the difference in ohms does, but mine are certainly loud enough. I usually have the master output set around 10 o'clock and that's ample.

 

 

 

Impedance is a measure of electrical resistance. The higher the number, the more juice is required to drive the headphones... in the case of very high impedance ratings, an anemic headphone amp would have trouble giving enough volume. In reverse, very low impedance cans will clip if you crank them too loud. 

[darren1982]

What’s the best impedance range for the helix then? 

[silverhead]

Any High impedance headphone is recommended. Here's the snip from the manual:

 

NOTE: Helix provides plenty of gain for high impedance headphones. With lower impedance headphones, you may notice a bit of distortion if the PHONES knob is turned all the way up. This is normal.

 

.... which begs the question... "What is high impedance?" In most cases high impedance headphones are marketed as such. I expect google will give you a range. In fact it may give you several ranges...... That's the beauty of standards - there are so many to choose from :-)

[cruisinon2]

1 hour ago, darren1982 said:

What’s the best impedance range for the helix then? 

 

Don't obsess over it. It won't matter unless you deliberately pick either extreme, like ultra-low impedance crappy $10 ear buds... or some ridiculous boutique set of cans that cost more than your Helix because they're hand crafted by Leprechauns from fine mahogany and 24k gold, and rated at 1000 ohms. Virtually nothing that you're likely to choose will be a problem... worry about what they sound like. That's what matters. 

[erniedenov]

I use Shure SE535 in-ear monitors through the headphone jack and they sound great; no mixer necessary! I have a pair of Sennheiser HD 595 headphones and they don't sound nearly as good, but of course they were half the price of the Shures.

 

As cruisenon2 said, going through an FRFR (or any) speaker is a whole different thing. I have separate setlists for  the speaker and the in-ears (and of course tweaking for the speaker should be done at the approximate volume you'd be playing at a live gig). I hardly ever need to use high or low cuts for the in-ears, but I certainly have to for the speaker.

 

Oh, and congratulations on getting a Helix!

[MusicLaw]

Yup! I have the SE530 and they too sound great with the Helix and the HX Stomp.  

[PanicKJ]

I think the OP shouldn’t be buying anything else.  The Helix will sounds terrific through a pair of $1300 dollar reference IEM’s.  I have the helix, and the 64 Audio A6T’s.  I run out of the headphone jack and play volume at 1/3 the way up and it sounds like heaven.  If you are not getting the same results I suggest you buy a $5 dollar patch from someone who has had the helix for years,  or try some impulse responses.  Don’t know your music style but the matchless amp sounds fantastic with an impulse response.  Don’t buy any more gear,  instead spend a small amount of money on impulse responses.  I have some from Ownhammer, Livereadysound, and tonejunkies.  

[joeycronin]

I posted these question on a different thread. I am using studio FRFR cans and and the Helix guitar sounds harsh, the effect sound great. Not sure why. I don't believe the can are being over driving. Korg Pro4s. I know they are $1,000 cans. but things sound harsh. I have Shure SE535 that will be my next try.

[StaccoP2P]

I'm using the DT770s, not only do they sound great, but they're extremly comfortable to wear (no small thing!).

 

Pseudo-related question. With the headphones out already claimed by the DT770s, what's the best output for a second set of monitoring headphones (musical partner, occasionally psychotic neighbors, long story blah blah). Everything I've tried so far sums to mono (most of my patches are hard panned L/R Stereo, so the difference is... chilling!)