Let's talk about Simple Delay vs Vintage Delay

[zolko60]

Let's talk about Simple Delay vs Vintage Delay.
There is nothing simpler than Simple Delay, right? Actually no. Line 6 developer has decided that its repetitions are somewhat "modeled" or "bit crushed" and little bit low pass filtered. The feedback goes to 100% which means at that value it gives infinite repetitions. Good but what I hear it does not feed back the crushed/filtered signal. Repetitions remain constant forever. The fun with early digital delays like eg. Boss DD2 was the signal was fed back to poor 12 bit AD converter at very low sampling rate and therefore it was degrading with each repetition. This is supposed to be modeled with Vintage Digital so why alter the sound in Simple Delay? BTW, while checking Vintage Delay I switched to 8 bits and the same behavior takes place. The repetitions are not fed back to 8 bit "crusher". They are crushed once and remain constant forever. (EDIT: I have been listening to it for 20min. It sounds like noiseshapping is used?) Why?
So what about Dumb Delay? The delay that does not alter the sound at all or alters it if desired with selectable simple EQ curves?
The last question to Line 6 devs is: why not let the users to use feedback above 100% to make pedal controlled "dub" oscilations?

[DunedinDragon]

9 minutes ago, zolko60 said:

The last question to Line 6 devs is: why not let the users to use feedback above 100% to make pedal controlled "dub" oscilations?

 

So why not post this to Ideascale since that's the only place Line 6 developers will ever see it?  They surely won't see it here....

[zolko60]

8 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

 

So why not post this to Ideascale since that's the only place Line 6 developers will ever see it?  They surely won't see it here....

 

I have posted it here and on facebook group. The reason is maybe I am wrong at some point and my observations are false?
The idea of making dumb delays that do not mimic anything or take a look at existing ones supposed to mimic old digital equipment isn't fresh, is it?

[DunedinDragon]

For myself that's not something I'd probably be that interested in.  But I'm not a big effects guy either.  I play guitar...not effects. LOL

[lou-kash]

32 minutes ago, zolko60 said:

The repetitions are not fed back to 8 bit "crusher". They are crushed once and remain constant forever.

 

Could be a bug. Report it in the bug thread.

 

22 minutes ago, DunedinDragon said:

post this to Ideascale since that's the only place Line 6 developers will ever see it

 

Apparently not just there: Today I received a reply from a "Moderator" here in the Helix Bugs Reports thread, confirming my bug report.

[phil_m]

15 minutes ago, lou-kash said:

 

Could be a bug. Report it in the bug thread.

 

 

Apparently not just there: Today I received a reply from a "Moderator" here in the Helix Bugs Reports thread, confirming my bug report.

James isn’t a moderator, per se, although I’m sure he has moderator permissions here. He’s the head of QA at Line 6. I’m not sure how often he looks at that thread, but I imagine he keeps tabs on it.

[lou-kash]

Just now, phil_m said:

James isn’t a moderator

 

Hence my usage of quotation marks, because "Moderator" is what it says under his user name. Just as you are tagged as "Line 6 Expert" and me as "Members".

[zolko60]

38 minutes ago, lou-kash said:

Could be a bug. Report it in the bug thread.

 

Even if it is. It works like that, nobody complains so why fix it? You can always say it was intended.
I would just add a few new delay blocks. Names: Dumb Delay, Dub Delay and Brutal Vintage Digital Delay. ;)

[codamedia]

1 hour ago, zolko60 said:

 

I have posted it here and on facebook group. The reason is maybe I am wrong at some point and my observations are false?
The idea of making dumb delays that do not mimic anything or take a look at existing ones supposed to mimic old digital equipment isn't fresh, is it?

 

Nobody is saying that! 

Line 6 does use these forums (or facebook) for feature requests.... at most, they look in to see if we are behaving :) 

 

line6.ideascale.com is the place to post your idea's! 

[PierM]

Agree with Zolko.

 

I do have an El Capistan (just a brilliant pedal) and 2 old Oberheim EDPs, because I do really love tape degradation, or digital delay cycle downsampling. Never been a fan of L6 delays/reverb for that reason, they are studio quality, but too cold and sterile for my taste (I said taste, not saying they are bad).

[zolko60]

12 minutes ago, codamedia said:

Nobody is saying that! 

I am saying that.

Before I post anything on ideascale which is read by Helix devs every morning I would like some delay fans/Helix users to confirm my observations.
Can you also hear signal degradation on Simple Delay or my ears are fooling me?
Have you played with any vintage digital delay or remember how it crushes repetitions?

[codamedia]

2 hours ago, zolko60 said:

I am saying that.

Before I post anything on ideascale which is read by Helix devs every morning I would like some delay fans/Helix users to confirm my observations.
Can you also hear signal degradation on Simple Delay or my ears are fooling me?
Have you played with any vintage digital delay or remember how it crushes repetitions?

 

Sorry... I misunderstood what you are asking. 

 

My recollection of the DD2 and DD3 is a slight initial degradation (from live to a 12 bit repeat)... but I don't recall degradation beyond that. That doesn't mean it didn't, it just means I didn't notice :)  I'm not the best person to discuss this with though. My delay uses are very minimalistic I love the warmth of a bucket brigade or tape over a few repeats... but never experiment with "bit crushers" in any way. 

[phil_m]

4 hours ago, PierM said:

Agree with Zolko.

 

I do have an El Capistan (just a brilliant pedal) and 2 old Oberheim EDPs, because I do really love tape degradation, or digital delay cycle downsampling. Never been a fan of L6 delays/reverb for that reason, they are studio quality, but too cold and sterile for my taste (I said taste, not saying they are bad).

 The Line 6 tape delay models certainly degrade as you'd expect a tape delay to.

 

The Legacy Lo Res model behaves more in a way that like the OP is talking about, although it starts out pretty degraded out of the gate. But the repeats seem to get more degraded as they go on. That one starts to self-oscillate at pretty low feedback settings.

[zolko60]

19 hours ago, phil_m said:

The Line 6 tape delay models certainly degrade as you'd expect a tape delay to.

Yes, The Transistor Tape behaves correctly. My only concern is it is too heavy low passed. I don't think any tape delay was so dark. It is also Elephant Man (Memory Man model) issue.

 

19 hours ago, phil_m said:

The Legacy Lo Res model behaves more in a way that like the OP is talking about

Yes! Thank you, I have never tried it. It is interesting.
While trying  some Legacy delays I found Digital Delay. It also works like Vintage Digital Delay. EQ and maybe some "modeling" is applied only once and never affects feedback.
So I haven't found any "proper" stomp digital delay in Helix that reminds Boss DD2/DD3, or more modern ones like Deep Blue and Rebote which have analog feedback loop and its filters and converters are used for progressive sound degradation. :(

[datacommando]

22 hours ago, phil_m said:

The Line 6 tape delay models certainly degrade as you'd expect a tape delay to.

I like the Line 6 Tape Delay and possibly use that more than all the others available. Although, when it comes to degradation nothing in this world could ever come close to my old 1970s Simms Watts Echo Dek. That thing constantly shed oxide onto the tape heads for that totally authentic muffled effect. I both loved and hated that machine until it finally ceased to function, and I took the leap to digital delay back in the early 80s. All good stuff in the Helix, and it’s light years away from were I started.

[malhavok]

The Adriatic Delay and Bucket Brigade models also "properly" degrade with each repeat. Adriatic is my favorite (it's like the Bucket Brigade but with longer possible delay times and modulation, much like an MXR Carbon Copy).

 

I also noticed in 2015 when I got my Helix that Simple Delay was not so simple as I hoped it would be. Thankfully, the Vintage Digital Delay can be what you want Simple Delay to be. Set VDD to 24-bits and 48k sample rate and it will offer full digital replication at better than CD quality.

 

At the very least, I'd love another delay model or an option on the VDD to turn on/off that would continuously degrade the signal (because I love that).

 

Don't worry about the people dismissing it. Delay fans love and want what delay fans love and want. Even if there's no "bug" at all then I still think it would be awesome to have something like VDD that continuously degrades.

[zolko60]

17 hours ago, datacommando said:

I like the Line 6 Tape Delay and possibly use that more than all the others available. Although, (...)

I like it too. It is supposed to model the famous EP-3 tape delay althoug Line 6 developer has decided to lowpass filter that like its heads have never been cleaned and tape was not changed for 40 years. I would rather want "NOS" and "Worn" to be switchable in digital model. ;)

 

10 hours ago, malhavok said:

The Adriatic Delay and Bucket Brigade models also "properly" degrade with each repeat.

 

I am not really sure. All Bucket Brigade Delays are also so heavy low pass filtered that it is hard to hear what is going on in higher midrange. Memory Man model is much darker than Memory Toy, which is made around cheap, low voltage BBD chips.
So, both tape and BBD delays are more in "ambient delay" cathegory. 
To give Helix models  a justice, there are some models, especially dirt boxes, that I can't distinguish from originals in blind tests.
To give digital models as a whole a justice (contr cork sniffing argument) there are some BBD and tape delay models within a single Sharc DSP capabilities that are accurate enough.

 

10 hours ago, malhavok said:

Thankfully, the Vintage Digital Delay can be what you want Simple Delay to be. Set VDD to 24-bits and 48k sample rate and it will offer full digital replication at better than CD quality.

 

Good tip, thank you! 

[phil_m]

Another thing I remembered yesterday because someone asked about it over on TGP - the Cosmos Echo, the RE-201 model - has the FB Tone parameter. This parameter controls the exact thing this thread is talking about. If you have at low values, the repeats start degrading pretty quickly. At higher values, they stay pretty clean. The Bass and Treble controls affect the overall repeats, but not in a successive fashion.

[zolko60]

Same issue here. My Helix RE-201 sounds like its heads are dirty and tape is worn. Maybe even caps' electrolyte dried out. Raising treble and feedback tone controls helps a little, but I feel it needs service to restore it to 70's "studio quality" shape.
Shoud I pick a Customer Support ticket? ;)

[phil_m]

8 minutes ago, zolko60 said:

Same issue here. My Helix RE-201 sounds like its heads are dirty and tape is worn. Maybe even caps' electrolyte dried out. Raising treble and feedback tone controls helps a little, but I feel it needs service to restore it to 70's "studio quality" shape.
Shoud I pick a Customer Support ticket? ;)

I think it sounds amazing! You’re smoking crack if you think it sounds bad! Probably my favorite delay period right now.

 

Honestly, perhaps the Helix isn’t the right modeler for you. Between here and Facebook, your complaints are very numerous.

[zolko60]

It is great worn tape delay found in junkyard!
If I am smoking crack, imagine what a dev modeling it was smoking. :D
 

[phil_m]

4 minutes ago, zolko60 said:

It is great worn tape delay found in junkyard!
If I am smoking crack, imagine what a dev modeling it was smoking. :D
 

Well, whatever it was, I hope they have more of it, because it’s awesome. Seriously, that model is right up there with all the best tape emulations out there. I like just as much as Strymon, and much better than Empress or Source Audio.

 

What about the Helix do you actually like?

[zolko60]

24 minutes ago, phil_m said:

What about the Helix do you actually like?

 

Everything except CE-1, EHX El. Mistress models, lack of NOS tape delay shape, overtfiltered BBD delay models, reverbs, noishaped low bit vintage digital delays and the manual.
I also do not appeciate Helix fanboys taking any criticism as a personal offense.
And seriously - Legacy models were written 15, Helix reverbs 3 years ago. To make polyphonic pitch shifting the qualified team was hired in 2020 so I don't buy "we did our best years ago and there is nothing we can offer you" justification and army of Line 6 fanboys advocating it.

[phil_m]

10 minutes ago, zolko60 said:

 

Everything except CE-1, EHX El. Mistress models, lack of NOS tape delay shape, overtfiltered BBD delay models, reverbs, noishaped low bit vintage digital delays and the manual.
I also do not appeciate Helix fanboys taking any criticism as a personal offense.
And seriously - Legacy models were written 15, Helix reverbs 3 years ago. To make polyphonic pitch shifting the qualified team was hired in 2020 so I don't buy "we did our best years ago and there is nothing we can offer you" justification and army of Line 6 fanboys advocating it.

The Victoria guys were hired perhaps as far back as 2018, IIRC. I’m not sure how you can Line 6 is saying what they have is the best hey can offer when they’re constantly adding new features. I don’t suspect they’ll be adding additional parameters to existing effects, at not that much. Perhaps here and there. I just think if they were constantly fiddling with existing stuff, it would prevent them adding the new stuff.

 

The reason people get offended is that describe something they personally like as crap... It’s not really so much about being a fanboy as much as having your personal preferences constantly criticized.

[zolko60]

25 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I don’t suspect they’ll be adding additional parameters to existing effects

You perfectly know "what ain't broke don't fix it", so every introduced model have to stay or eventually be moved to the legacy section.
In this topic I just want to point some weeknesses and what I am focusing in to pick creative signal processing tools for myself. I hope someone at Line 6 cares about development of better quality software, not only of a new kind like polyphonic pitch shifting but also that "ain't broke" but left behind competition for several years. Now I have to pick other solutions for my needs. Although I do not find playing with laptop to be convinient enough only for a possibility to use some particular software quality I lack in Helix.

Musicians vote with their money. They often can not name phenomenons of their tools they do not like. Instead of scraping their heads or modding they drop their tools and buy another. I don't want to drop Helix which I think is the good piece of hardware I have learned to use. Look at my history at this forum. I try to help others just like you and I try to give Line 6 products a justice. It is up to Line 6 if my personal preferences or opinions have any value or they prefer users that love everything they do.

[malhavok]

So far, the Legacy section is ONLY for blocks that were ported from older-than-HX units. Any new delay models added would not be likely to cause other HX-class delays to move into Legacy. The one remaining exception are the wah blocks which are HD-class but remain in the non-Legacy section.

[phil_m]

6 minutes ago, zolko60 said:

You perfectly know "what ain't broke don't fix it", so every introduced model have to stay or eventually be moved to the legacy section.
In this topic I just want to point some weeknesses and what I am focusing in to pick creative signal processing tools for myself. I hope someone at Line 6 cares about development of better quality software, not only of a new kind like polyphonic pitch shifting but also that "ain't broke" but left behind competition for several years. Now I have to pick other solutions for my needs. Although I do not find playing with laptop to be convinient enough only for a possibility to use some particular software quality I lack in Helix.

Musicians vote with their money. They often can not name phenomenons of their tools they do not like. Instead of scraping their heads or modding they drop their tools and buy another. I don't want to drop Helix which I think is the good piece of hardware I have learned to use. Look at my history at this forum. I try to help others just like you and I try to give Line 6 products a justice. It is up to Line 6 if my personal preferences or opinions have any value or they prefer users that love everything they do.

Well I know several of the Line 6 folks personally. They definitely care. I don’t think they would agree with your assessment of being left behind, though. I don’t think that’s what driving them. And honestly, I think it’s silly to say they’re being left behind when they’re consistently outselling their competitors... But that’s another story.

 

I don’t know. You do what you want. You just have a long list of negatives. I couldn’t come up with such a list even for devices I don’t like. Really, I’ve never gotten rid of something purely for sonic reasons. To me, most things out there now are close enough for me to not care enough. It all comes down to what gets me from point A to point B with the least amount resistance.

[zolko60]

BTW to write something nice about Line 6.
The reason I have bought Helix was It was the only serious digital modeler that existed as hardware device and computer software. I appreciate that a lot!
I was aware that I would not have everything that I had as DAW plug ins. This is why I treat Hx as hardware and software, each DSP block as plug in and care about that pieces quality.
I also had some hardware devices with great potential that I had to get rid of because its software was not longer supported/developed and competition left it in dust.

[zolko60]

51 minutes ago, phil_m said:

They definitely care. I don’t think they would agree with your assessment of being left behind, though.

If they care maybe they should take a look at my objections about delays which is not neither worth idea scale submission nor customer support contact. My observations are replicable in 5 minutes and affects delay perception to average "but it goes to eleven" guitarist. ;)

 

51 minutes ago, phil_m said:

I think it’s silly to say they’re being left behind when they’re consistently outselling their competitors.

 
Good point! I can only say how they bought me and why they can loose me. I can imagine they will not cry when I will be selling my Helix hardware. ;)
Also if some of DSP blocks are worse than some free plug ins quality, outselling is easy :) Please take a look at eg. TAL DUB delay.

 

51 minutes ago, phil_m said:

It all comes down to what gets me from point A to point B with the least amount resistance.

 
OK, so maybe buying second hand first generation POD is a good idea in 2020. ;)

 

 

Honestly: Let's make the world better together!

[zolko60]

To give some demonstration what I am writing about:
This is Echoplex EP-1 sound sample:

 

 

 

This is UAD version of Roland RE-201. To give Helix a justice with comparision one needs to consider how much DSP power it eats (for one 450Mhz Sharc) and the price.
 

 

Of course there are some other RE-201 emulation plugins:
 

And finally my favorite Memory Man model taken from old Avid Eleven Rack - so avialiable both as a hardware and a plug in.